Would Laythe really be habitable, Redux

[Brotoro]

...When comparing KSP to real life, it's good practice to pretend that everything has normal density and 10x greater radii. Otherwise, it's impossible to compare to reality and that's not fun or interesting.

I disagree. I KNOW these objects aren't ten times bigger than indicated... I've driven and flown around on them. A lot. You can get surprising far around these objects in a short time...no way are they big.

And this difference does NOT make it impossible to compare the KSP bodies with reality... you just have to abandon your preconceptions about what these bodies should be like based on our limited experience with bodies in our solar system.

[phunk]

Ok, I was a little off...they have found one using Arsenic. Link: http://gizmodo.com/5704158/nasa-finds-new-life

That actually turned out to be nonsense.

[Rokker]

I disagree. I KNOW these objects aren't ten times bigger than indicated... I've driven and flown around on them. A lot. You can get surprising far around these objects in a short time...no way are they big.

And this difference does NOT make it impossible to compare the KSP bodies with reality... you just have to abandon your preconceptions about what these bodies should be like based on our limited experience with bodies in our solar system.

Its not what we have encountered in our solar system, its what we've encountered in chemistry and astrophysics

[Holo]

That actually turned out to be nonsense.

I googled it, and it's pretty sad. Turned out that it was just resistant to arsenic, it still needed phosphorus.

Oxygen in the atmosphere, in the quantities needed for jets, is a sure sign of some sort of life, even if it is just single-celled. Maybe the water is operating as radiation shielding.

[SyberSmoke]

I googled it, and it's pretty sad. Turned out that it was just resistant to arsenic, it still needed phosphorus.

Oxygen in the atmosphere, in the quantities needed for jets, is a sure sign of some sort of life, even if it is just single-celled. Maybe the water is operating as radiation shielding.

Bummer, And here I was hoping the world was bigger then my philosophy. Oh well...some where out there is something very cool that we can not conceive of yet.

[Rokker]

Overall, I'd say Laythe in the end is habitable.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Rokker

[Motokid600]

They say feces is a great rad block. Bit of a crappy solution though..

Lol on a more serious note. If Laythe gets its heat from Jool such as Io then the moon would be a great hazard to land on. Despite being volcanic as all hell it'd be riddled with constant Laythe-quakes and a fissure could open up anytime and swallow your lander.

I read somewhere awhile back that Io's topography changes as fast as the weather does here on Earth. Can you even imagine? I'd be scared to even orbit the moon let alone land. A gyser could shoot material right into your path.

Makes me think about 2010 when they found Discovery parked in Io orbit coated in sulphur. Cool stuff.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Motokid600

[czokletmuss]

The old thread was necroed then locked, but some interesting points were brought up. To continue the heated debate, I bring you this thread.

Ha, I knew that this discussion was far reaching consensus

EDIT: I saw few people discussing the radiation problem and I believe (due to what they posted) that they have quite a lot of knowledge about this topic. So here's my question - what could be the scientifically probable level of radiation on the surface of Laythe with its own magnetosphere and without it? How much protection the atmosphere woudl provide assumig that Jool Van Allen belts are as strong as Jupiter's (scaled down to KSP universe)? I mean, could we reasonably except something like 1 Sv/h or should we count it in mSv rather than siverts?

Edited November 12, 2013 by czokletmuss

[Brotoro]

Its not what we have encountered in our solar system, its what we've encountered in chemistry and astrophysics

And I am applying what we know from chemistry and astrophysics to the parameters we are given for the KSP system. That's why I said that it is NOT impossible for us to speculate about what conditions on Laythe would be like even though it is unlike any object in our experience. There is no need to imagine it being bigger than it is to apply what we know about physics.

[UberFuber]

Use heavy lead shielding for high-energy proton and electron radiation? Lol, that is a terrible idea. Lead, and in fact no metals at all, should not be used to shield the particle radiation inside any magnetosphere, that would simply induce Bremsstrahlung causing an increase in x-rays inside the vehicle. This radiation only needs to be shielded by wood, plastic, water (or urine built up over time is a suggestion i've heard), acrylic, basic insulation (as was used in the Apollo missions). And when metal must be used on a ship, the best option is the least dense metal possible that could satisfy the need.

As for the matter of shielding yourself on Laythe, I would recommend either a submarine/subterranian base which would cut down on mass required to take there significantly along with the mild/occasional use of medicines currently being tested by NASA that slow cell division and allow cells to heal from damage

To clarify, the idea is that you want something that consists of lots and lots of hydrogen (hence, water and other hydrocarbon material). The general idea is that for electron, you want something with as few protons in the nucleus as possible (basically, you want to have a really weak electric field). It will take longer to stop said electron, but you won't get as much secondary radiation.

For proton/neutron, the use of hydrogen also slows those fast proton/neutron down faster through a bunch of elastic collisions (basically, you want something that has very similar mass to proton/neutron).

In short, for general purpose stopping high energy particles, charged or not, you want hydrogen, lots and lots and LOTS of hydrogen.

[Rokker]

They say feces is a great rad block. Bit of a crappy solution though..

I even have an acronym a space agency can use for it Cosmic Radiation-Advanced Protection.

[Rokker]

Yes, I probably should have expanded on the explanation Uber

[rpayne88]

I'm actually watching an episode of the universe about the possibility of life. I already forgot the exact depth, but they suggested that at a certain depth underwater, you would be shielded from radiation while still getting enough light for photosynthesis. If you have photosynthesis, you can make habitation by extraterrestrials (humans or Kerbals, in this case) relatively easy.

[boxman]

If it was in the real world it would not even have liquid oceans. I have heard some people from squad talk about how it is heated by the tidal forces caused by Jool, but there is no way in reality that it would heat up the actual atmopshere to allow liquid oceans on the surface.

In real world it would be like Europa or the other moons around the gas giants that are believed to have a liquid ocean underneath the ice.

So if it was realistic it would have a ice cover with maybe an ocean underneath while still being very cold at surface.

It is the same thing with minimus.. It is said to have ice cover, but that makes no sense at all since it has no atmopshere. The surface temperature on a real moon like minimus would vary from extremely high temperatures on the sunlight side and extremely low during night time. The only places ice could exist in real world would be in deep craters that are always in the shade.

[elxverde]

Whoever compiled that list didn't wade into Laythe's oceans or lakes. There are separate descriptions for that on EVA and surface samples.

[boxman]

It is not inconceivable to me that a moon could exist in a zone where this tidal heating was enough to have a warm surface with liquid water and an atmosphere just like Laythe.

It really is.. The only way you can have liquid ocean is if it had ice cover to keep the heat from escaping like Europa. If tidal forces were strong enough to keep the actual atmosphere heated then it would basically have been a liquid ball of lava which would mean the water would have evaporated in no time.

It would only be realistic if that liquid was something else than water that has a much lower freezing point.

[Brotoro]

It really is.. The only way you can have liquid ocean is if it had ice cover to keep the heat from escaping like Europa. If tidal forces were strong enough to keep the actual atmosphere heated then it would basically have been a liquid ball of lava which would mean the water would have evaporated in no time.

It would only be realistic if that liquid was something else than water that has a much lower freezing point.

If you can accept the cases where the tidal heating is only enough to keep a liquid ocean under the ice, and the case where the tidal forces are strong enough to make a molten rock surface, then why do you find it hard to accept the middle case? The tidal forces in the Jool system would be very strong because of the very close distances between the moons, so tidal heat will be substantial. Give Laythe a lot of carbon dioxide to go with its oxygen so that it has a substantial greenhouse effect to hold in enough of that escaping heat, and we are good to go.

[Holo]

It really is.. The only way you can have liquid ocean is if it had ice cover to keep the heat from escaping like Europa. If tidal forces were strong enough to keep the actual atmosphere heated then it would basically have been a liquid ball of lava which would mean the water would have evaporated in no time.

It would only be realistic if that liquid was something else than water that has a much lower freezing point.

Laythe's temperature is over 4 Celsius (check the OP), so temperature isn't an issue. There,s no doubt that something is heating Laythe to temperatures at which liquid water can exist. The only question is what.

Whoever compiled that list didn't wade into Laythe's oceans or lakes. There are separate descriptions for that on EVA and surface samples.

I compiled it, using data extracted directly from the game files. I'll take another look tomorrow, I might have missed something when I copied the descriptions into paint?

Edited November 12, 2013 by Holo

[boxman]

If you can accept the cases where the tidal heating is only enough to keep a liquid ocean under the ice, and the case where the tidal forces are strong enough to make a molten rock surface, then why do you find it hard to accept the middle case? The tidal forces in the Jool system would be very strong because of the very close distances between the moons, so tidal heat will be substantial. Give Laythe a lot of carbon dioxide to go with its oxygen so that it has a substantial greenhouse effect to hold in enough of that escaping heat, and we are good to go.

No amount of greenhouse effect would be enough to keep the water liquid at the surface. It would freeze on sruface and form a ice sheet ontop of the liquid water even with a thick atmosphere.

Edited November 12, 2013 by boxman

[boxman]

Laythe's temperature is over 4 Celsius (check the OP), so temperature isn't an issue. There,s no doubt that something is heating Lay the to temperatures at which liquid water can exist. The only question is what.

And that is exactly what I have a problem with. It is not realistic to have 4c surface/air temperature.

But anyways.. It is no big problem for me.. I will just pretend that it is something else than water.

Edit: Which actually would kinda fit more with the spirit of the game otherwise.

We make the stories, so it would have been good if they let us speculate and come up with our own theories instead of telling us that it is water.

Edited November 12, 2013 by boxman

[Holo]

No amount of greenhouse effect would be enough to keep the water liquid at the surface. It would freeze and form a ice sheet ontop even with a thick atmosphere.

And yet something is keeping Laythe from freezing, since the surface temperature is high enough for ice to melt.

And that is exactly what I have a problem with. It is not realistic to have 4c surface/air temperature.

But anyways.. It is no big problem for me.. I will just pretend that it is something else than water.

Yeah, that's the problem with threads like this one. We can't tell whether Laythe is meant to be the temperature it is or whether it's just an artefact of an incomplete game

Edited November 12, 2013 by Holo

[boxman]

And yet something is keeping Laythe from freezing, since the surface temperature is high enough for ice to melt.

Squad has sadly already told us it is the tidal forces that keeps it warm. I would say it became this way due to lack of research on their side.

[Brotoro]

No amount of greenhouse effect would be enough to keep the water liquid at the surface. It would freeze and form a ice sheet ontop even with a thick atmosphere.

It depends on how much heat is working its way up through the surface. On Earth we have the Sun providing us with something over 1,000 watts/square meter when it is high overhead....and it will be less when the Sun is lower in the sky, and absent at night. So a daily average of a few hundred watts per square meter (the amount of geothermal heat coming out is small compared to that, so we can ignore it). If the tidal heating on Laythe produces that same energy outflow, then Laythe would be happily Earth-warm. And it would take even less because Laythe is NOT as warm as Earth, and could have a greater greenhouse effect to help hold the heat.

[boxman]

It depends on how much heat is working its way up through the surface. On Earth we have the Sun providing us with something over 1,000 watts/square meter when it is high overhead....and it will be less when the Sun is lower in the sky, and absent at night. So a daily average of a few hundred watts per square meter (the amount of geothermal heat coming out is small compared to that, so we can ignore it). If the tidal heating on Laythe produces that same energy outflow, then Laythe would be happily Earth-warm. And it would take even less because Laythe is NOT as warm as Earth, and could have a greater greenhouse effect to help hold the heat.

And that is where I disagree. From what I understand that would basically need the surface to be so hot that it has basically turned into liquid. Also there is not much surface to talk about either. The water just would have evaporated if there was anything on the planet generating that much heat/energy.

[Holo]

and could have a greater greenhouse effect to help hold the heat.

That might also explain the EVA report. If Laythe's atmosphere is something like 5% kerbon dioxide, it could create a greenhouse effect, be toxic and have an acceptable level of oxygen all at once.