[WIP][TechTree @ 0.23.5] - [MS19e] - Realistic Progression LITE

[Guest]

Anyone know why my rockets SHAKE VIOLENTLY on the launch pad with RSS? they are balanced and not overly tall, i am wondering if this broke my KSP install, any suggestions?

[MedievalNerd]

Anyone know why my rockets SHAKE VIOLENTLY on the launch pad with RSS? they are balanced and not overly tall, i am wondering if this broke my KSP install, any suggestions?

What does the F2 report say?

There is an stock issue which is excacerbated with RSS, which is the ground contact error with clamps. Try diffirent configuration of clamps and you should make it.

There is also an intermittent DRE issue where you sometimes can burn up on the LP. Just revert to launch or VAB and that as well should work.

@V18 Mini Update

I saw that the Gemini parts were erroneously placed somewhere in engineering, put all of them in the tier 2 of capsules & landers. I've also pushed the Interstellar Science Lab & Computer core to seperate upper branches, and put the Jr Lab in a node prior to that.

Cheers,

[RaccoonTOF]

Your career got messed up because of the new tree? Pretty sure that once a career is started, you run off the locally saved copy of the tech tree you loaded initially. Let me know if I got that straight, because I want to make sure I'm messing people's games when I perform updates. From what I could see, my old saves still had the old version of the trees.

This is because of how TreeEdit works in comparison to TreeLoader. You are the "owner" of the tree, so you have a "local copy" of the tree stored. Unfortunately, the F5 save functionality does not seem to work the same between reloads of KSP for trees that you are not the "owner" off when using TreeEdit - you have to reload the tree each time you restart KSP from the online version, so your career gets updated to whatever the lastest public version of the tree is. This is a large part of why TreeEdit is not in "general release" yet as far as I understand, and why trees need to get "approved" before they go into public display for TreeLoader users (which does save local copies of the tree.cfg properly, only needing to be loaded once per career save).

@Aazard - I agree that you don't have to pull months or days of aerobraking, but as you said it means you need the proper insertion angle - thus needing the extra dV that I mentioned unless you happen to have a very well timed return window and a good launch orbit from whatever body you are returning from. I was also thinking about it as I was doing a stock-scale Munar landing earlier in sandbox, and it's also possible that some of my extra dV usage is because of how I do my landing profiles on non-atmospheric bodies - largely due to the poor framerates the current laptop gets when loading the surface texture chunks, I use a somewhat less-efficient decent profile which kills all horizontal surface speed at a much higher altitude than a more efficient pure-suicide-burn landing would (this means that I only get one spot of framerate lag for that texture chunk, which then doesn't change because I am descending straight down over the same surface location, rather than still travelling horizontally and loading progressive texture areas as I do so). Can hardly wait to get the new computer here (KSP being the first thing being intalled onto it beyond basic system utilities, lol) and see how it changes my "piloting/lack of control workarounds" that I've been using thus far

EDIT: btw, it's not memory issues I'm having with the current laptop, it's just simply that it is about 6 years old with integrated graphics It's actually got 8G of RAM on it, with more than enough free for KSP to utilize to the best that it can, and I've done some pretty serious texture reduction and parts pruning so that I usually am only running about 2.7G of memory in use by KSP at runtime. But it still takes 20-25 minutes to actually get through the load process (and even with no mods it takes about 15 minutes just using stock KSP) and has horrible issues when swapping textures in game even at 1/4 res. Honestly I was rather surprised that it is even playable at all on this machine, even though it does mean that I have to sometimes focus far more on "parts-count-performance" optimizations or "piloting-lag-induced" overengineering rather than "rocket-performance" optimizations - as mentioned above with how I do my non-atmospheric landings for example, and why I tend not to use the "just add more struts" approach to building. In fact, my first successful SSTO in FAR that used no struts, no SABRE engines, and no PWings, just to keep the parts count and processor load down as far as possible to make up for low-fps controls, and could still put a 10t payload into a 100km orbit -barely It was an...interesting...challenge...

Edited November 25, 2013 by RaccoonTOF

[MedievalNerd]

This is because of how TreeEdit works in comparison to TreeLoader. You are the "owner" of the tree, so you have a "local copy" of the tree stored. Unfortunately, the F5 save functionality does not seem to work the same between reloads of KSP for trees that you are not the "owner" off when using TreeEdit - you have to reload the tree each time you restart KSP from the online version, so your career gets updated to whatever the lastest public version of the tree is. This is a large part of why TreeEdit is not in "general release" yet as far as I understand, and why trees need to get "approved" before they go into public display for TreeLoader users (which does save local copies of the tree.cfg properly, only needing to be loaded once per career save).

EDIT: btw, it's not memory issues I'm having with the current laptop, it's just simply that it is about 6 years old with integrated graphics It's actually got 8G of RAM on it, with more than enough free for KSP to utilize to the best that it can, and I've done some pretty serious texture reduction and parts pruning so that I usually am only running about 2.7G of memory in use by KSP at runtime. But it still takes 20-25 minutes to actually get through the load process (and even with no mods it takes about 15 minutes just using stock KSP) and has horrible issues when swapping textures in game even at 1/4 res. Honestly I was rather surprised that it is even playable at all on this machine, even though it does mean that I have to sometimes focus far more on "parts-count-performance" optimizations or "piloting-lag-induced" overengineering rather than "rocket-performance" optimizations - as mentioned above with how I do my non-atmospheric landings for example, and why I tend not to use the "just add more struts" approach to building. In fact, my first successful SSTO in FAR that used no struts, no SABRE engines, and no PWings, just to keep the parts count and processor load down as far as possible to make up for low-fps controls, and could still put a 10t payload into a 100km orbit -barely It was an...interesting...challenge...

Strange, even if I load someone elses tree (from the tree edit list) and press F5, it does seem to be saving a local copy of it in the save folder. Rest assured that as soon as I 'released' V17 I had already PM'd r4m0n to get the tree published, but I think he's been away for a bit more than 2 weeks now, so we'll have to wait for his return before I can see my tree in there. :/

Memory aside then, using things like procedural fuel tanks will probably help with part count as each stage can basically be a single tank.

I can't wait for you to get your new laptop and get to enjoy the game even more.

R4m0n asked me last time if I wanted it published and I said it was just about ready, should have said yes then and there! Woe is me!

Cheers,

[stevron]

Since this .18 pack has come out none of the Mun probe custom experiments seem to be working for me, clicking on any experiment yields the message "Current situation:so and so | Warning, this experiment is for - only!". The - representing a double space. It doesn't matter where I am, what experiment I try it wont work. The other probes have worked fine. Anyone else having this issue?

edit. Just to clarify the data recorder does indeed work, just not the experiments.

Edited November 25, 2013 by stevron

[M4ladict]

Since this .18 pack has come out none of the Mun probe custom experiments seem to be working for me, clicking on any experiment yields the message "Current situation:so and so | Warning, this experiment is for - only!". The - representing a double space. It doesn't matter where I am, what experiment I try it wont work. The other probes have worked fine. Anyone else having this issue?

edit. Just to clarify the data recorder does indeed work, just not the experiments.

I have the same problem. My probe is waiting on the moon, but I can't do any experiment.

[zyngawow]

Could you please add mroe thorough installation instructions? I keep struggling with it. What I did:

· Downloaded the pack

· Downloaded all other mods in the required section.

· Downloaded some of the extras, utilities and advanced tech.

· Installed all mods normally, putting them into GameData.

· New game, career mode.

· Try to find the tech tree, can't.

Do I still need to use TreeEdit? If so, could you please add it to the Required section?

[MedievalNerd]

Sorry, I'll have a look at this today and release a fix for either the plugin or the experiment files.

Darnit!

[MedievalNerd]

Hey everyone,

When I added the new error messages, I forgot to add target situations to the munar experiments, please download this file and overwrite the matching one in the RPL_Tweak_pack\Tweaks\Probe Experiment Tweaks\

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yy49a99zisik5zn/RPL_Tweaks_Probe_Squad.cfg

Sorry for the inconvenience, but replacing this file and loading up your game should fix it!

[MedievalNerd]

So the problem was in 2 places, the new error messages added I had removed also a Data check.

Here is the updated plugin, just overwrite the one you currently have installed with this one:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/89vdl34xqw1hyf1/CustomExperiment.dll

[asmi]

Another point is you have to get out of the KSP mindset of "oh, deorbiting is easy"--actually, it's very hard, and you pay a heck of a mass penalty for shield and parachutes. Don't worry about trying to deorbit, just get the probe up there.

Actually ask any astronaut/cosmonaut what's the scariest part of the spaceflight, and he/she will no doubt tell you "ride home".

[RaccoonTOF]

Yup, without stretchy tanks, and a number of other parts reducing parts/plugins, I wouldn't be able to fly more than very basic rockets/aircraft. Definitely looking forward to the new computer too - it should even allow me to see all of the pretty textures and graphical effects that I so envy in others screenshots as well

[zyngawow]

Could you please add mroe thorough installation instructions? I keep struggling with it. What I did:

· Downloaded the pack

· Downloaded all other mods in the required section.

· Downloaded some of the extras, utilities and advanced tech.

· Installed all mods normally, putting them into GameData.

· New game, career mode.

· Try to find the tech tree, can't.

Do I still need to use TreeEdit? If so, could you please add it to the Required section?

Yes, I did indeed. Is there a way I can close the "edit mode" of TreeEdit?

Edited November 25, 2013 by zyngawow

[M4ladict]

So the problem was in 2 places, the new error messages added I had removed also a Data check.

Here is the updated plugin, just overwrite the one you currently have installed with this one:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/89vdl34xqw1hyf1/CustomExperiment.dll

It works!

Thank you for the quick fix. I really enjoy your mod.

[MedievalNerd]

Yes, I did indeed. Is there a way I can close the "edit mode" of TreeEdit?

Yup, you still need to. (hence the pre-release note on top of the OP).

And no you can't, but you can easilyl move the 'edit window' to the far low right, and you'll barely notice it then on.

Edited November 25, 2013 by MedievalNerd

[MedievalNerd]

It works!

Thank you for the quick fix. I really enjoy your mod.

Why thank you for trying it out!

I'ts my very first mod/plugin, so I apologize for the little bumps here and there. But I'm going to keep working on it to make sure it's in a fun state.

As I asked a few times in my comments, I'm open to suggestions for experiments. (Collect X data, around Y body, in Z situation, for A science points) Feel free to send me your suggestions via PM. In order to get a full experience of scientific missions, MCE is apealing to allow for impact missions which can then also payout science. Simulating impact objective with the science modules, even with my plugin, it's not really feasible.

Some people have expressed concerns about SRBs and their usefulness. I tend to use them to give me a little boost to my core stage and allows me to cheat with a slightly lower than 1.2TWR on the LP. I'll put a ring of 8 Globe I's around my 2M core stage.

I was talking with Nathan, and one of the useful things of KSP (which can be modeled in KSP) is their price. They are cheaper than than rocket fuel engines. So once money is in play, using a quick SRB fix rather than get better engine or add liquid boosters will be more meaningful. I'm considering perhaps lowering the cost of SRBs by maybe 50% and see how that plays in the whole thing. I'll keep that for V19.

I'm going to add experiments to the 'mercury' and Gemini capsules. And adding with a MCE mission, you could do the Gemini docking mission and have it payout science. Not really possible in the science module mindset. (Although I could add a 'docked' situation check) Well see. I don't want to turn the plugin into this huge thing that does more than it should. I'm actually surprised I got it working the way it is right now. haha

Another thing I'm looking help for, is suggestions on how to split the aircraft tree. Right now ti's a bit of a mess and everything is bundled into 2 nodes. And I realized I have KSPI's ram scoops in there, should move those along with the advance propulsion section of the tree.

cheers,

[RaccoonTOF]

I'd be happy to help with the aircraft side of things if you tell me what mods in particular you want to focus on there. This is primarily because the two most popular aviation mods, Firespitter and B9, while they work together they go about things with a very different approach. They can certainly be used together, but if you want to have meaningful tech progression then you need to setup the tree differently depending on whether the user has Stock, just Firespitter, just B9, or both. And then other mods such as Interstellar add their own bits and bobs that would need to be fit into whichever "primary" approach you used for the tree.

Edit: It also depends on how detailed you want to make the aviation portion of the tree in general - personally I'd love to see it be split up as detailed as the rocketry side of things is, but you might not want to have that many nodes on the aviation side for whatever reason

[andqui]

I have no problem finding SRB's worthwhile. 6 x Globe 5, followed by main engine + 6 x Globe 1 are all that let my current launcher have a good enough TWR to lift off until some fuel gets burned off- I have Tier 1 rocketry and SRB and wouldn't be able to get anything useful in orbit without them currently.

Also, many early designs didn't use SRB's- Atlas, R7, Mercury-Redstone, Vanguard didn't use any SRB, and the Juno rockets used for the first American satellite, Explorer 1, only used a cluster of SRB's for final orbit insertion.

[MedievalNerd]

I'd be happy to help with the aircraft side of things if you tell me what mods in particular you want to focus on there. This is primarily because the two most popular aviation mods, Firespitter and B9, while they work together they go about things with a very different approach. They can certainly be used together, but if you want to have meaningful tech progression then you need to setup the tree differently depending on whether the user has Stock, just Firespitter, just B9, or both. And then other mods such as Interstellar add their own bits and bobs that would need to be fit into whichever "primary" approach you used for the tree.

Edit: It also depends on how detailed you want to make the aviation portion of the tree in general - personally I'd love to see it be split up as detailed as the rocketry side of things is, but you might not want to have that many nodes on the aviation side for whatever reason

The problem with B9 is the number of parts. I'm not interested in sorting through 100+ parts and place them in the tree, there is a lot of redundancy like fuel tanks and other parts. It alreayd took me weeks to get the tree sorted the way it is, throwing in an extra 100 parts will most likely kill me. (And might cause memory issues considering how many mods are already on board)

Perhaps just go through the stock, NP & KW surface control, wings/wiglets and propose a 2 or 3 tier progress for it. That would be more than enough for now.

If you could list them by 'partname' IE:

Tier 1:

Partname1

Partname2

Tier 2:

Partname3

Partname4

Tree Edit does list the 'title' of a part, but it's not pleasant to have to count them manually and pick the right one as partname, since they often have little resemblance.

If you have any questions feel free to PM me at any time.

Thanks,

[RaccoonTOF]

I don't have KW installed myself, but I'd be happy to do the listing for the stock and NP parts. And if you are only looking for a few tiers, it's not too hard to add the B9 parts and Firespitter parts as well (I had already made some modmanager tweak files to fit them into your tree as it currently existed prior to the latest version already, so it should be pretty easy to adapt those). Will give me something to do for the next couple days till the new computer gets here

[Guest]

Yikes i could 1000% own KSP scale with DE/FAR but RSS humm, hurts my pride

I MIGHT NEED ADVICE...BADLY...

I feel my "RSS" rockets, while able to do the job, just dont seem correct, i might be missing the idea i think , Any pics of examples of vessels that can:

1: orbit a small solar powered, fully equipped (all sensors, both goo's, a magnetosphere probe and science jr) M-38 remote science probe than can return safley?

2: orbit a small solar powered, fully equipped (all sensors, both goo's, a magnetosphere probe and science jr) 1 man capsule than can return safley?

3: Munar landing a small solar powered, fully equipped (all sensors, both goo's, a magnetosphere probe and science jr) M-38 remote science probe than can return safley?

4: Munar landing a small solar powered, fully equipped (all sensors, both goo's, a magnetosphere probe and science jr) 1 man capsule than can return safley? (mine with tier 1 rockets & SRBs is just an insane tower of fuel, & cant get home, poor jeb)

I have early probes, tier 1 rockets, SRB's, structural and staging, the 1st plane node, early capsules/life support, 1st landing legs node & science upto science jr all unlocked with 332 points to play with and kerbin 70% milked of science points (land, flying, near space/high space in most biomes)

Thanks anyone is welcome to post of msg me pics, it would really help, as i fell that one waying manned mun trips may be my limit of understanding with RSS & real fuels (which confuses me still slightly). I have no clue how i will pull off a duna/eve flyby and return

Edited November 26, 2013 by Guest
wrong emoticon

[MedievalNerd]

Yikes i could 1000% own KSP scale with DE/FAR but RSS humm, hurts my pride http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/images/icons/icon9.png

I MIGHT NEED ADVICE...BADLY...

I feel my "RSS" rockets, while able to do the job, just dont seem correct, i might be missing the idea i think , Any pics of examples of vessels that can:

1: orbit a small solar powered, fully equipped (all sensors, both goo's, a magnetosphere probe and science jr) M-38 remote science probe than can return safley?

2: orbit a small solar powered, fully equipped (all sensors, both goo's, a magnetosphere probe and science jr) 1 man capsule than can return safley?

3: Munar landing a small solar powered, fully equipped (all sensors, both goo's, a magnetosphere probe and science jr) M-38 remote science probe than can return safley?

4: Munar landing a small solar powered, fully equipped (all sensors, both goo's, a magnetosphere probe and science jr) 1 man capsule than can return safley? (mine with tier 1 rockets & SRBs is just an insane tower of fuel, & cant get home, poor jeb)

I have early probes, tier 1 rockets, SRB's, structural and staging, the 1st plane node, early capsules/life support, 1st landing legs node & science upto science jr all unlocked with 332 points to play with and kerbin 70% milked of science points (land, flying, near space/high space in most biomes)

Thanks anyone is welcome to post of msg me pics, it would really help, as i fell that one waying manned mun trips may be my limit of understanding with RSS & real fuels (which confuses me still slightly). I have no clue how i will pull off a duna/eve flyby and return

With RSS you have to plan your payload wisely. My early satellites are in the range of 175kgs. I don't recall the payload % in average to certain types of rocket, but it's a very low percentage. Maybe you are trying to put too much on it on the go.

[MedievalNerd]

I don't have KW installed myself, but I'd be happy to do the listing for the stock and NP parts. And if you are only looking for a few tiers, it's not too hard to add the B9 parts and Firespitter parts as well (I had already made some modmanager tweak files to fit them into your tree as it currently existed prior to the latest version already, so it should be pretty easy to adapt those). Will give me something to do for the next couple days till the new computer gets here

MM tweak files get overwritten by tech trees btw. It sort of works for Tree Edit, but messes up with Tree loader. So I'd have to have all of them loaded and save the tree, then I could remove them as I wouldn't be using them myself. Also, engines which aren't part of the rebalance will definitely through the balance off of the tree/progression.

B9 isn't just wings and control surfaces from what I understand.

[stevron]

Yikes i could 1000% own KSP scale with DE/FAR but RSS humm, hurts my pride

I MIGHT NEED ADVICE...BADLY...

I feel my "RSS" rockets, while able to do the job, just dont seem correct, i might be missing the idea i think , Any pics of examples of vessels that can:

1: orbit a small solar powered, fully equipped (all sensors, both goo's, a magnetosphere probe and science jr) M-38 remote science probe than can return safley?

2: orbit a small solar powered, fully equipped (all sensors, both goo's, a magnetosphere probe and science jr) 1 man capsule than can return safley?

3: Munar landing a small solar powered, fully equipped (all sensors, both goo's, a magnetosphere probe and science jr) M-38 remote science probe than can return safley?

4: Munar landing a small solar powered, fully equipped (all sensors, both goo's, a magnetosphere probe and science jr) 1 man capsule than can return safley? (mine with tier 1 rockets & SRBs is just an insane tower of fuel, & cant get home, poor jeb)

I have early probes, tier 1 rockets, SRB's, structural and staging, the 1st plane node, early capsules/life support, 1st landing legs node & science upto science jr all unlocked with 332 points to play with and kerbin 70% milked of science points (land, flying, near space/high space in most biomes)

Thanks anyone is welcome to post of msg me pics, it would really help, as i fell that one waying manned mun trips may be my limit of understanding with RSS & real fuels (which confuses me still slightly). I have no clue how i will pull off a duna/eve flyby and return

Technology has a HUGE role in what you can launch, unlike stock KSP which you can build a rocket with very early parts and send it all over the place just getting into orbit is a feat, sending it anywhere is another matter.

That rocket I showed has 18.5k vaccum delta V and not to far off for atmo dV since the first stage will put it well on it's way into orbit meaning the lower isp upper stage engines don't need to fire in the atmo. The final vessel will barely make it back to Kerbin from the Mun if I get all my burns right. The only way to reach that much dV for me was to invest in the rocketry tree, which is currently at level 3. So more thrust, less mass and better isp means you can make much better rockets.

Lastly try to steer away from the 500 rocket asparagas staged with a bajillion boosters on it setup. Aerodynamics plays an even bigger role with FAR that sticking on more fuel/engines.

Edited November 26, 2013 by stevron

[Guest]

With RSS you have to plan your payload wisely. My early satellites are in the range of 175kgs. I don't recall the payload % in average to certain types of rocket, but it's a very low percentage. Maybe you are trying to put too much on it on the go.

I could really use some example pics, it would help greatly, how are you getting it down to 175KG the M38 probe core alone is 0.7T (700KG), unless i am to use a probe with no "probe sensors" (all probes should have this "probe reading" option IMHO, including the stayputniks if the goal is super light but still gain science pts) but then i miss out on the extra science points.

Honestly any example pics would help me greatly so i can "see it", it will make it easier to understand for me

edit: thanks for posting that pic, now i am concerned, i sank all my points into getting a manned capsule and science equip, am i now stuck having to restart and invest more towards rockets, and move more "slowly" to greater point yeilds per mission???

Edited November 26, 2013 by Guest