[WIP][TechTree @ 0.23.5] - [MS19e] - Realistic Progression LITE

[andqui]

I could really use some example pics, it would help greatly, how are you getting it down to 175KG the M38 probe core alone is 0.7T (700KG), unless i am to use a probe with no "probe sensors" (all probes should have this "probe reading" option IMHO, including the stayputniks if the goal is super light but still gain science pts) but then i miss out on the extra science points.

Honestly any example pics would help me greatly so i can "see it", it will make it easier to understand for me

edit: thanks for posting that pic, now i am concerned, i sank all my points into getting a manned capsule and science equip, am i now stuck having to restart and invest more towards rockets, and move more "slowly" to greater point yeilds per mission???

No, maybe not. The following was all done with Tier 1 rocketry and SRB's

This is the first satellite I put into orbit, nothing more than a box, a radio, some batteries, and a gravity sensor. It was rather pathetic, ran out of power after 3 orbits I believe.

This is my second satellite, built after I got solar panels and intended to be an infrequently helpful comm relay. Unfortunately I miscalculated the number of solar panels it would need and it is slowly loosing power, should be dead in a few days.

This is the launcher I used to put the above two (just barely) up. The last stage is used to circularize the orbit, so they produce some space litter, unfortunately. Again, this is just with tier 1 rocketry/SRB. The 6 x SRB's get it off the ground, and the TWR of the main engine improves enough to accelerate after 15 seconds or so- if I fire it and the boosters at the same time my TWR is way to high and it's not controllable.

This is my first functional and sustaining satellite, which I put up using an improved version of the above launcher. It barely makes enough power to recharge after the night, and I can't really fine tune the orbit so it's stuck in a 100 x 3000 km orbit, but it's already given me some windows of contact with mission control in other probe flights.

This is the beefed up version of the first launcher, used to put up the comm satellite. Some more SRB's added to help the launch TWR and some more fuel can put heavier things in orbit. I just unlocked manned pods, and it's not quite capable of that, but I think I can squeeze some more dV out of it with a few improvements.

Hope this helps

[stevron]

I went half and half rockets/science and didn't bother with capsules until a had t3 or so science and t2 rockets so just going straight science is not really wise.

I've had exp with RSS and doing career so I knew already that doing anything beyond Kerbin orbit needed better rockets. With t1 rocketry you should be able to create a rocket to atleast do a Mun flyby which will be a start in getting Mun science, thats what I had to do, even if it means doing multiple launches trying to get different biomes with the blue gravioli thingy.

But it really is a patience game when using RSS, having to pretty much get 99% of Kerbin science, first Mun missions only involving flyby's and so on.

[Guest]

that helps alot really, although i wonder what rockets/fuels power each stage if you could tell me? this is what i'm for failure (and it has far to low TWR for circularizing): but i was hoping i could time a shot at the mun and free return this early probe

[MedievalNerd]

@Aazard, if you go look in the RSS thread someone posted a really nifty chart that shows how much DV it takes to move around, I suggest you have a look at it and it'll be a great guideline to see if you have too much or insuficient DV. I give mysefl a buffer because I'm not the best at piloting/plotting courses.

I'm also going to be adding quite a few more custom experiments for probes, going to try and have closely all of the 1960-1970's probe missions represented in the game. I'll go for best fit/look for stock probes but i'm not a modeler so we'll have to use our suspension of disbelief together.

I'll also be adding 'video & picture data' as a separate type of 'data recorder'.

V19 will also have the Mercury and Gemini 'objectives' as experiments. Not super obvious in a way, but I think I can make it work.

Cheers,

Edited November 26, 2013 by MedievalNerd

[RaccoonTOF]

MM tweak files get overwritten by tech trees btw. It sort of works for Tree Edit, but messes up with Tree loader. So I'd have to have all of them loaded and save the tree, then I could remove them as I wouldn't be using them myself. Also, engines which aren't part of the rebalance will definitely through the balance off of the tree/progression.

B9 isn't just wings and control surfaces from what I understand.

MM tweak files work fine for parts which are not specifically assigned in the tree - that's how I've been using a LOT of the mods that I have which are not supported in various trees. The trick is that they have to be assigned to a node (in the MM cfg tweak) which actually exists in the tree. This works great for trees where the stock nodes are just moved in location/cost but still have the same basic purpose, but less well for trees like yours where the stock nodes are almost completely repurposed. Thus why I had to make a set of MM config files for B9 and Firespitter (and a few other choice mods) specifically designed to work with your tree.

However, the most reliable method is indeed to do as you suggest, load the mods yourself prior to final save of the tree, save the tree, then remove the mods if you don't want to continue using them. Shouldn't be too much of a concern though if you are willing to do that extra step, as you can load in 1/4 res just for the editor save which should leave you plenty of memory still. Alternatively, you could just have a separate "TreeEdit Building Install" install of KSP entirely, separate from your "Personal Play" install (which could also be useful for testing the mod from the perspective of an end user too ).

As for the balance issues themselves, both of those mods packs do install additional engines, RCS, etc. which is why I said that the one(s) you chose would change the way that the tree would have to be balanced (or end up with "empty" nodes in some cases, like without Firespitter you would have no need for a notional Piston Propeller Engines node ) However, they should not throw off the balance of the current parts for the rocketry side of things with a few very minor exceptions which could just be added to the current appropriate nodes (like the larger fuselages which can carry rocket fuel would be placed in the appropriate node on the rocketry side of things, instead of in the aviation branch of the tree - which would only have the fuel tanks for jet fuel. And yes, even with MFSC installed, the different fuselages are "intelligent" and the "Jet Fuel" tanks/fuselages can't hold any of the oxidizers ) The one exception to this that comes to mind off the top of my head is the SABRE engine, especially in its current incarnation where it is more vacuum efficient than the previous versions of the mod. If it would be possible to have your currently proposed shuttle node or something similar also have a rocketry requirement (might be hard with the current tree organization) then this could be solved that way - or it could just be assumed that by the time someone has the highest tier of rocketry research then they can be given semi-"free" jet technology just for that engine only and make it fit into your existing tree structure.

The only potential balance issue would be if someone was really focused on building an SSTO from the very beginning, and spent an extensive amount of time/science towards getting the upper end air-breathing engines, cockpits, aerodynamic surfaces, and fuselages and stuck with low-end rockets for orbital maneuvers with "narrow" tanks. This might change a bit of the balance around but personally (having tried similar in a different tree that separates the aviation and rocketry branches) it is EXTREMELY hard to do well without the other "normal" rocketry advances and structural advances, and honestly if someone chooses to put in the extra effort required to do so I think it's a perfectly reasonable "alternate" route to space for them to be "allowed" to pursue. But that is of course your choice as the developer of the mod .

I'll work on two sets of "tech sets" for you, one which includes a listing with just stock/NP/KW (which I'm going to install again at least to get the parts in the right places for you) - and one which is designed to be used with the above + firespitter and b9 (as I think most aviation enthusiasts - like myself - will likely have both of those packs installed rather than just one or the other). Then you can choose which one you want to use and which one not as you like (and if you stick with just the stock+NP+KW set I can just keep using my current MM tweak files modified slightly for the new node names/locations).

EDIT: BTW, there is one other balance issue that comes to mind, but it's entirely tech-tree independent and has more to do with FAR - B9 and Firespitter both give MUCH better control surface options available for use as rocket fins than having to use a dozen or so of the stock canards/winglets. That's actually what prompted me to install B9 in the first place, was to get the new winglets and other control surface systems integrated in the wings for use with FAR, since my performance limitations are primarily part-count related rather than memory-footprint related issues. So with either of those packs installed people would have the ability to use larger lifting surfaces with integrated controls as rocket fins, which does have a slight actual performance advantage on very large rockets in terms of weight and dV numbers for launch as well - but even then, the difference is only 50-100 m/s dV savings from the slightly added lift for less weight than just using stock controls and that only really applies to the very large rockets which would otherwise be using 12-20 of the smaller stock control surfaces instead.

Edited November 26, 2013 by RaccoonTOF

[funfight22]

I am not really able to get enough science. I have tier one rockets, the first probe tier, the first science, first fairing stuff and lander legs. Kind of a bad choice with the landing legs, but what should I do for science now? I have done all the kerbin low space experiments, and don't get much science from just flying up and using the stock science equipment, sending it down, and letting the rocket explode on reentry.

[RaccoonTOF]

Have you done the stock science missions for all of Kerbin's biomes?

[MedievalNerd]

I am not really able to get enough science. I have tier one rockets, the first probe tier, the first science, first fairing stuff and lander legs. Kind of a bad choice with the landing legs, but what should I do for science now? I have done all the kerbin low space experiments, and don't get much science from just flying up and using the stock science equipment, sending it down, and letting the rocket explode on reentry.

Have you completed all the custom experiment probes? Stayputnik Mk1 & Mk2, and also ProbeCore 1 & 2? Those have quite high payouts.

V19 will have way more custom experiments and cloned probes with varying types of experiments.

[andqui]

that helps alot really, although i wonder what rockets/fuels power each stage if you could tell me? this is what i'm for failure (and it has far to low TWR for circularizing): but i was hoping i could time a shot at the mun and free return this early probe

Sure, I can't check now, but I'll pm you the details, and the craft file too if you want it. If you can get that thing into orbit, without it breaking, it might be able to do a lunar flyby, but your efforts might better be spent elsewhere. Just before I unlocked manned pods, I got 300 science for doing the high space sample/reading objectives, all with Tier 1 rockets. I haven't even gotten a Kerbal into space yet, and don't plan on doing anything with the moon until I get my rockets up another tier.

[MedievalNerd]

Here is the Delta-V table I was referring to:

[RaccoonTOF]

Just a note for your combined install pack (going about setting up a separate install for RSS and this mod, will be attempting to run it all on this PC but if not at least it will be all set to directly copy over to the new one when it arrives) - your tweak pack readme still references the RT2 folder that needs to be copied and deleted. This doesn't exist in the current version of the pack, due to you changing the way you handled the RT2 tweaks

[MedievalNerd]

Just a note for your combined install pack (going about setting up a separate install for RSS and this mod, will be attempting to run it all on this PC but if not at least it will be all set to directly copy over to the new one when it arrives) - your tweak pack readme still references the RT2 folder that needs to be copied and deleted. This doesn't exist in the current version of the pack, due to you changing the way you handled the RT2 tweaks

Doh... D: I'll have to review this for V19. Sorry!

Small V19 update:

Spent the evening looking at historical Moon, Venus, Mars unmanned missions up until the 1980's. I'll use those as samples to make the updated probe experiments.

Also played with the tree a little:

Edited November 26, 2013 by MedievalNerd

[BrickedKeyboard]

Have you considered doing something with the SRBs?

Let me get this straight. You could add an SRB to a vehicle. Or, you could add several "liquid boosters", aka a fuel tank + engine. Several liquid rocket motors will equal the thrust on the SRB, and due to the triple or quadruple ISP, will burn for much longer.

Per unit of mass, you come out ahead. Per part added to the rocket, you come out ahead.

I don't really understand what SRBs are for. They don't have thrust vectoring, so if you add too many, the rocket will fly out of control.

I know they are useful in real life because they can sit for years in a rocket motor before being used. All the military missiles use them, etc.

[MedievalNerd]

Have you considered doing something with the SRBs?

Let me get this straight. You could add an SRB to a vehicle. Or, you could add several "liquid boosters", aka a fuel tank + engine. Several liquid rocket motors will equal the thrust on the SRB, and due to the triple or quadruple ISP, will burn for much longer.

Per unit of mass, you come out ahead. Per part added to the rocket, you come out ahead.

I don't really understand what SRBs are for. They don't have thrust vectoring, so if you add too many, the rocket will fly out of control.

I know they are useful in real life because they can sit for years in a rocket motor before being used. All the military missiles use them, etc.

SRBs are fine, if you want to see practical applications, look at the Delta series.

SRBs are cheaper alternative to Rocket Fuel Engines. This isn't modeled in KSP yet by the fact that there is 'no money' yet. To give it a nudge, I reduced SRB research costs by half. I am not going to merge SRBs & Rocket Engines.

I personally use Globe I's that I attach as a ring around my core stage to give it a little extra nudge when I cheat and go below 1.2TWR. They don't burn that long, but gives a nice kick and allows you get some extra lift on start. Also, did you take a look at stretchy SRBs? Then you can customize, thrust, diameter, burn time.

Sur SRBs don't have thrust vectoring, but when circling a core stage that has thrust vectoring, they do fine.

Whenever I have time, which seems to be never, i'll make/show sample rockets that make use of SRBs.

EDIT: I think Nathan is resizing them btw. so they'll have more kick soon probably.

EDIT2: He did resize them, i'll put togeter a V18b tweak pack that'll include the fixed experiments and .dll.

Edited November 26, 2013 by MedievalNerd

[Senshi]

I find stretchy SRBs do be wonderful. With a little bit of RCS (or powerful rotational wheels), I actually brought a series of com satellites into orbit with only the orbiter using liquid fuel. A two-staged launch vehicle composed of precisely tuned SRB sizes and thrust levels make for one of the most efficient ascents when you still are early in this tech tree (and use the Realism Overhaul etc.) . First stage being responsible to bring you up to higher atmosphere, second stage using a much lower thrust and using "vacuum stretchySRB" with the better ISP gives plenty of power to almost complete circularization. Considering their simplicity, I'll probably reuse this approach with 3+ stages once payload mass increases. Dry mass of a SRB is fairly low, as is the extra price to pay if you use Mission Controller, so using more stages is attractive.

The stock boosters really could only be used as launch assistance with their fixed thrust/burn time which makes them difficult to adapt for varying payload mass.

[lmw5201]

Your techpack and NathanKell's RO pack are totally cool. I really love this reality!

Btw, I'd like to suggest new science gathering method, such as space laboratories on orbit, that keeps producing a good amount of science once it supplied with some stuffs and crews from ground.

How do you think about it?

Edited November 26, 2013 by lmw5201

[MedievalNerd]

This techpack and NathanKell's RO pack open new horizons of KSP gameplay. I really love this.

Btw, I'd like to suggest new science gathering method, such as space laboratories on orbit, that keeps producing a good amount of science once it supplied with some stuffs and crews from ground.

How do you think about it?

Thanks lmw5201,

I am open to new/different ways to generating science. Although the science lab, is already something that exists with KSPI! They have a lab, when manned, and in specific situations, generate a small amount of science over time. Combine that with ECLSS or TACLS, and it can be balanced and challenging.

I'm struggling right now with Impact probes but other types of science experiments I'm going to include:

- Photo & Video 'data'

- Considering cloning some stock science instruments and making 'Geiger counter' for radiation experiments, X-ray experiments. That'll take more time and consideration.

- Right now I'm trying to go through the list of historical probes and plan out custom experiments for 'nearly' each of them. I'll group some together, but I want to have a nice progression that can follow in line with the rocket/booster progression.

As I mentioned in previous comments, I'm also going to try to emulate Mercury & Gemini missions by science experiments.

Thanks for checking it out,

[MedievalNerd]

Fix Notes: Updated V18b

* Fixed Custom Experiment Plugin not verifying situations/experiments properly.

* Updated to latest versions of all Essential mods in the Mini Realism Pack.

* Rewrote the OP to make it clearer and included installation instructions.

* Added new instructions file in the pack as well. (Same as OP)

* Download link updated

[MedievalNerd]

I started reworking the probe experiments, and was sad that we didn't have something that looked like Explorer 1.

So I used a nosecone and messed with it a little, gives a not so bad look!

Meet K-Xplorer 1

0.25M X 1M

Instead of cloning too many probes, I'm trying to make some form of variety. I'm no modeler so this is my best shot! lol

[Senshi]

With v18 and your Munar Exp. fix, I found that I no longer need to gather data.

Once the biome requirement is met (e.g. high space over kerbin), I can click the "Get Reading/Sample" buttons and immediately get the experiment popup allowing me to transmit or store the experiment, even when the data resource has been at zero the whole time. This is true for all environments right now, so it's not probe-specific or anything.

[MedievalNerd]

With v18 and your Munar Exp. fix, I found that I no longer need to gather data.

Once the biome requirement is met (e.g. high space over kerbin), I can click the "Get Reading/Sample" buttons and immediately get the experiment popup allowing me to transmit or store the experiment, even when the data resource has been at zero the whole time. This is true for all environments right now, so it's not probe-specific or anything.

You are using the latest V18b pack?

[Guest]

Are these updates, v18b, "game save breaking" updates? like do to any tweaks to tech tree?

Edit: i have found from updating i can still select different fuels, but setting engines to different fuels the "configure to" selection seems to have bugged and i can no longer see it update info correctly

Edited November 26, 2013 by Guest

[andqui]

Are the mechjeb tech levels integrated into the tree yet? To do that, all you need to do is go into the part.cfg of the mechjeb component, and there are a series of unlockTechs tags that let you establish which node needs to be researched before the module is available. I think treeedit works by moving/swapping nodes around, so some of the progression is a little arbitrary (for example, you have the advanced ascent/landing guidance with basic rocketry, but no atitutde hold/SMARTASS until the next control node, and I think the maneuver planner comes even after that). If you wanted to, you could overwrite the mechjeb unlocks in the same way that you tweak the RT2 values.

[MedievalNerd]

Are these updates, v18b, "game save breaking" updates? like do to any tweaks to tech tree?

Edit: i have found from updating i can still select different fuels, but setting engines to different fuels the "configure to" selection seems to have bugged and i can no longer see it update info correctly

They shouldn't be. But you should get rid of all the folders it replaces. If you are having issues with MFT, please try reinstalling the folders.

Updates that will be 18b, 18c, 18d, etc. will not be 'game breaking'. Major updates V19, V20, might, but i'll let people know if it did change something major. Most likely V19 will be quite the overhaul, I'm making new probes and will try to make a more smooth progression for unmanned probes following historical successful missions.

Hope this helps.

Are the mechjeb tech levels integrated into the tree yet? To do that, all you need to do is go into the part.cfg of the mechjeb component, and there are a series of unlockTechs tags that let you establish which node needs to be researched before the module is available. I think treeedit works by moving/swapping nodes around, so some of the progression is a little arbitrary (for example, you have the advanced ascent/landing guidance with basic rocketry, but no atitutde hold/SMARTASS until the next control node, and I think the maneuver planner comes even after that). If you wanted to, you could overwrite the mechjeb unlocks in the same way that you tweak the RT2 values.

No, the MJ tech levels aren't integrated yet. I haven't gotten around to fiddle with that yet. Right now my focus is balancing tech progression by making new probes/experiments and starting the manned experiment/programs.

So many things to do, it's crazy. Sometimes I look at the state of things and feel it hasn't been literally over a month that I've been working on this. lol

[andqui]

No, the MJ tech levels aren't integrated yet. I haven't gotten around to fiddle with that yet. Right now my focus is balancing tech progression by making new probes/experiments and starting the manned experiment/programs.

So many things to do, it's crazy. Sometimes I look at the state of things and feel it hasn't been literally over a month that I've been working on this. lol

No worries at all, the work done so far is much appreciated. I just noticed that the first post read "Will look into how r4m0n handles the progressive unlock of components", and just didn't want it to be a lack of knowledge that was holding it back, I've changed things as I wanted them in my install. A long todo list is another story, take your time.