Unlockable maneuvers in career mode.

[Rallige]

Hey everyone,

Did you ever feel strange about how low-tech kerbals are barely able to launch their vehicles in upper atmosphere, but already can calculate ultra complicated maneuvers to Eeloo? I sure did.

My suggestion is :

Before you can use maneuver tool near space object, you must collect at least some data about it. Example - before you can plan maneuvers in Kerbin zone of influence, you must visit a set number of biomes\ spend set time in it's atmosphere or low orbit\ run specific experiments\ etc.

PROS :

- Makes more sense (at least to me)

- Makes probes actually useful ( for suicidal missions to unexplored objects, which, afaik, they are partially used for IRL )

- Makes exploring chain a little more robust (instead of "go wherever you want after you discover nuclear engines")

CONS :

- Might make learning curve a little bit more steep for new players.

Your thoughts?

[vexx32]

I don't think this is a good idea. All the data you need to plan a manoeuvre node can be obtained by observations from afar -- generally speaking (i'm not going to go into details because they hurt my head this late at night) you only need know the mass of the body and its orbit/trajectory/velocity/etc. None of this requires direct observation, and all of it can be gained via simply observing the objects for a time via a telescope in the real world. Very little experimentation is really needed. Sure, actually planning the nodes is a bit math-heavy if you were to do it manually, but you wouldn't need to have gotten into orbit about it or gotten a soil sample to do so. Those things are useful for science... but not for the math and physics of orbital manoeuvring.

[Rallige]

Well, I get what you're saying. Actually, I thought all of that myself. I just feel a need to simulate the progress in trajectory/maneuver calculation kerbal scientists have. While not insisting on solutions I suggested, IMHO we shouldn't be able to calculate super-complicated trajectories from day 1 without actually working for it.

Besides, seeing how their own homeworld's biomes are completely unknown to kerbals, I believe I have every right to question their progress in outer space exploration

[Superfluous J]

You can get the masses of Kerbin, Eve, Duna, and Jool without being there (by observing the orbits of their moons) but there's no way for a Kerbal to know the exact mass of any other body without measuring it. This means they won't actually know the masses of Moho, Dres, and Eeloo (or any moons including Mun and Minmus) without actually going.

If they lived in our Universe they could probably get the mass of Ike, but Gilly'd be too small to affect Eve. Laythe and Tylo - with really good observations - may reveal their masses by observing how they tug on Jool. But in the Universe of Kerbal Space Program, orbits don't work that way.

That said, I have no idea how to smoothly implement this in the game and - far more importantly - make it clear to the player what's going on with those wonky orbital prediction paths. It's hard enough for a new player to know what's happening when the information is correct!

[LLlAMnYP]

The simplest implication of that is that maneuver nodes should not allow to predict the point of entry into the sphere of influence. I.e., it's fine to calculate the closest approach to a celestial, but you should not get the information for the next conic. That would also mean, that maneuver nodes will be useless to plan gravity assists from planets until you actually science out their parameters.

[Guest]

This is a very bad idea. It imposes arbitrary restrictions on the player for no reason whatsoever and does not enhance the game in any way. It's not even realistic.

[Kegereneku]

It inspire me a system where you have to send probes equipped with the "Gravioli-detector" to be able to plan maneuver in another SOI.

Expected gameplay :

1) At first you only know Kerbin's Gravitational parameter. Maneuver node work here.

2) You don't know Mun's / Kerbol Gravitational Parameter. So you can't see the predicted trajectory inside its SOI.

3) You send a probes equipped correctly, once in there it give you science and unlock maneuver node.

4) This sensor become the standard load-out of any probes.

Expected result :

- You are limited to Kerbin's orbit at the beginning, then Mun/Kerbol, then you can plan interplanetary travel.

- You are encouraged to make probes.

- It only ask at most for as many probe as celestial bodies.

Possible continuation :

- SOI interception don't show up either, your trajectory act as if there was no planet/moon around.

- You cannot know the effect of an atmosphere on your trajectory unless you land a Barometer there. (this is if the developers give us this tools someday)

Alternative :

- The quality of the on-board computer determine the number of SOI change it can predict.

==> Expected result : Making it hazardous/expensive to try to go to Duna too soon.

[DancZer]

I don't like the idea to lock the maneuver editor.

Rather, what if the displayed flight path precision depends on the collected science around the place where you travel? In this case you should collect science around the Kerbol to be able to put something on the specify orbit.

[Kasuha]

I don't think it's a good idea to make players go to Mun or Minmus without maneuver nodes.

But it might be a good idea to unlock the map view itself only after some science was collected. So if you feel smart, you can go to Mun at tech level 0, but you get no help. Otherwise you get the map unlocked at tech level 1.

There could be some advanced features implemented, too, which could become available later in the science tree. Something like automatic setup of ejection burn towards selected planet from the current orbit.

[LethalDose]

This is a terrible idea. There is absolutely no need to hamper a players ability to fly a ship to, from, or around any body in the Kerbol system.

If you want to find a way to encourage probe use, find another way to do it.

[UberFuber]

I believe the only thing planned right now that approaches what you said on maneuver node is a sort of fog-of-war (fog-of-exporation?) system. Where in the beginning, you only see a few inner planets (plus a few larger ones) such as Eve, Moho, Duna, and Jool. More farther out planets simply don't show up in map view until you discover them (orbital telescope? unlocked ground based observatory? sheer luck by flinging probe in said general direction)?

[vexx32]

This could in fact discourage the use of probes, simply because it'd be a nightmare to try to get anywhere near the intercepts you wanted, and you'd need tons of excess fuel to compensate for all the probable errors. Combined with the increased ease of manoeuvring a piloted craft, probes would be relegated to such a minor role they'd be next to useless. Probes need as much precision as one can afford them, because they're so small and often can't carry much excess fuel.