[0.23.5] Realism Overhaul: ROv5.2 + Modlist for RSS 6/30/14

[Scripto23]

This isn't an issue with RO specifically, but I'll post it here because maybe someone else has noticed this, or knows what I'm doing wrong.

Anyway, I'm having a lot of issues with roll control on command pods with built-in rcs, and gimballed engines. I notice this in particular with FASA pods and LazTek's Dragon pod. The FASA Gemini has built-in rcs, but I only have pitch and yaw control, same for the dragon capsule. And none of the gimballed engines give me roll either (obviously not single engines), But none of the cluster engines that should provide 3 axis control. Am I missing something?

For the Dragon, you're actually not missing anything. There is no roll control with RCS, that is how it is supposed to be according to the mod author. If you're using the SuperDracos (without the nodes) on them, then you need to apply them in a specific way to avoid crazy spinning.

[NathanKell]

OtherBarry: if the part doesn't use a MODEL node, you can just up rescale factor (to 1.6 if it used to be 1.0; or to 2.0 if it used to be 1.25 or was absent). Or 1.2 and 1.6 respectively if you want to go to 3m rather than 4m.

If it does use a MODEL node, it's more complicated; check what I do in the FASA.cfg linked in post 2.

[Zander]

Hey guys,

I just wanted to share this tool I made for real fuels. Its a small C# program with a GUI that can do all the conversions between mass and volume and mixture ratios necessary for making engine configs and filling fuel tanks with Real fuels. It also can tell you the ISP for a certain propellant flow rate and thrust.

It comes with a drop down selector with the most common fuels and oxidizers preset with their densities or you can do a new propellant type if you want.

Since the real life technical manuals usually give rocket mixture ratios by mass but real fuels needs it by volume this tool can save you a lot of calculating by hand. (yes this is a shameless copy paste from where I originally posted it in real fuels )

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/69184-Real-Fuels-Propellant-Mixture-Converter-V-1-3-%28Feb-13th%29

[TranceaddicT]

Running into a problem with RO. All the RCS changes cause the load to enter into a NullReferenceException loop. I've systematicall removed the associated .cfg files one by one

:

RCS_AIES

RCS_KW

RCS_RLA

RCS_Squad

Each time the load process proceeds until the next RCS_.

Each one begins as below and initiates only at the first RCS mod in the RO .cfg.

[LOG 13:38:24.047] PartLoader: Compiling Part 'RLA_Stockalike/Parts/RCS/RCS/probercs/RLA_rcs_micro'

[EXC 13:38:24.052] InvalidCastException: Cannot cast from source type to destination type.

[EXC 13:38:24.056] InvalidCastException: Cannot cast from source type to destination type.

[EXC 13:38:24.066] NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object

Any ideas?

[NathanKell]

Are you using any other RCS related mods? Like RCS sounds or Kerbcom avionics etc?

[TranceaddicT]

Yep, that did it. Thank you.

[Captain_Party]

To all the rescalers, this is something you might want to see... http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/35439-20-2-BossSquirrelz-s-Mods/page3

[Guest]

What, the old, broken Delta II? There's another one in the works, no need to mess with the old model.

[Captain_Party]

No, no, no... The Shuttle Derived Heavy Lifter. I've been playing around with it, and it flies ok. I'll have a go rescaling it.

[junkie_business]

I'm really sorry guys, but someone is going to have to hold my hand through this.

Nathan's edited F-1 config gives the Kerosene/LOX ratio as 38.002931/61.997069. What are these numbers? I know the IRL mass of RP-1/LOX, I know the densities, but the resulting numbers are 961 to 1569. How does this turn into 38/62? I have a hunch but it's guesswork.

[SFJackBauer]

I'm really sorry guys, but someone is going to have to hold my hand through this.

Nathan's edited F-1 config gives the Kerosene/LOX ratio as 38.002931/61.997069. What are these numbers? I know the IRL mass of RP-1/LOX, I know the densities, but the resulting numbers are 961 to 1569. How does this turn into 38/62? I have a hunch but it's guesswork.

These are just ratios. It would work the same if the ratios in the config were 0.38/0.62 (which is what I use in the RealEngines cfgs).

In this case KSP doesn't care about the magnitude of the numbers, just the ratio between them.

[AbeS]

So I have been wondering, why there isn't a LES rescale yet? I know everyone just clicks revert flight when things go wrong but LES would definitely be more realistic!

[SFJackBauer]

I've got a rescale of Wolf LES, but the problem now is with the pods having offset CoMs and no reaction wheels, the ejection is uncontrollable. I have yet to test with NovaPunch and sumghai Service Module LES, any other LESes out there?

[SFJackBauer]

RealEngines 0.6

Decided to fix the gimbal issues as the lack of proper roll control really hurts during ascent for more complex engine arrangements.

0.6

- Included dtobi's gimbal plugin as standard gimbal method for all engines

- Added coverage for Kosmos Spacecraft Design bureau engines

-- KB Khimavtomatiki RD-0146D

-- KB Khimavtomatiki RD-0146

-- KB Khimavtomatiki RD-0225

-- NPO Energomash RD-275K

-- SNTK Kuznetsov NK-33

-- RKK Energiya RD-58

- Set crashTolerance to 7m/s

- BreakingForce scaling with engine mass

- Adjusted RD-253 stats to be more correct

- Switched NovaPunch Basic Bertha Mini Quad (1.25m) from being RD-0124 to RD-0110

Install instructions and download link on my signature.

Also next release will probably be made on a separate thread, as these cfgs will not be bundled anymore in future releases of RealismOverhaul due to logistical reasons.

Edited February 15, 2014 by SFJackBauer

[NathanKell]

junkie_business: KSP uses volume ratios. Real life stats use mass ratios. F-1 uses 2.27:1 ox:fuel mass ratio; given the densities of RP-1 and LOx, that comes out to 62% LOX by volume, 38% RP-1 by volume.

AbeS: LES are engines, and thus been taken care of by SFJackBauer or myself (RftS rescales the NP Apollo ones and the KSPX one) or by a historical parts patch (FASA, or Dragon01's Soviet patch). Nobody's done TKS yet though...

[junkie_business]

So how does the game know how many actual units of fuel to take? I'm sorry to keep asking what probably seem like simple questions, but the only config guide I could find is about 6 versions old.

[NathanKell]

Specific impulse (Isp). It's a measure of efficiency, when given in seconds it's the number of seconds one lb of fuel will provide one lb of thrust (or 1 newton / 1 newton). KSP takes the thrust the engine produces, uses Isp to find out how much mass is required each tick to produce that thrust, and then subtracts that much total mass worth of resources according to the volume ratio, presumably by adding up the densities of all components multiplied by their ratios (d1*r1 + d2*r2, etc), dividing by the total mass required, and getting a multiplier m, then subtracting m * ratio for each resource.

No problem.

[junkie_business]

I was kind of hoping that wouldn't be the answer. Now things seem to be burning for approximately the correct amount of time, but my TWR is off. I understand that rockets generate lift once in pitch but surely not enough to make up for a 0.81 TWR? Can FAR even manage that?

[SFJackBauer]

I was kind of hoping that wouldn't be the answer. Now things seem to be burning for approximately the correct amount of time, but my TWR is off. I understand that rockets generate lift once in pitch but surely not enough to make up for a 0.81 TWR? Can FAR even manage that?

Man, you seem to be struggling with something basic, but I can't infer from what you are saying. Why don't you gives us a concrete example of what are you trying to do? Or exactly what you don't understand?

[Silpion]

I'm playing with including Vernier engines, but they seem to be incapable of roll control as with KSP engines in general. However I noticed earlier that the Space Shuttle Engines mod engines are apparently capable of roll control. Is there a way of integrating that capability into RO so we can have roll control during launch without RCS?

[Guest]

RealEngines 0.6

Decided to fix the gimbal issues as the lack of proper roll control really hurts during ascent for more complex engine arrangements.

0.6

- Included dtobi's gimbal plugin as standard gimbal method for all engines

- Added coverage for Kosmos Spacecraft Design bureau engines

-- KB Khimavtomatiki RD-0146D

-- KB Khimavtomatiki RD-0146

-- KB Khimavtomatiki RD-0225

-- NPO Energomash RD-275K

-- SNTK Kuznetsov NK-33

-- RKK Energiya RD-58

- Set crashTolerance to 7m/s

- BreakingForce scaling with engine mass

- Adjusted RD-253 stats to be more correct

- Switched NovaPunch Basic Bertha Mini Quad (1.25m) from being RD-0124 to RD-0110

Install instructions and download link on my signature.

Also next release will probably be made on a separate thread, as these cfgs will not be bundled anymore in future releases of RealismOverhaul due to logistical reasons.

Still no ignitors? I'm kind of disappointed. Also, could you add Dtobi's engines, including his excellent RS-25?

[NathanKell]

All that's required is the engine configs use non-stock gimbal modules. For example RftSEngines uses careo's Exsurgent Engineering gimbal, and is soon switching back to dtobi's Space Shuttle Engines KM_Gimbal.

[Silpion]

So do we have to install those modules separately, or can they be packaged in with RO somehow?

[Zyglrox]

Didn't think I would ever ask this question, but... how do I get to orbit?

More specifically, how do I get heavy payloads to low orbits with realistic launchers? Especially with Centaur/DCSS-like upper stages?

I have been using Realism Overhaul mod-pack for some time already, and recently decided to switch to Full Realism Mode, trying to build rockets as close to their real specifications as possible. That means size, engines, fuel amount, stage mass and burn time, etc. I usually get something with 9700-10000 delta-v and reasonable sea level TWR, and surprisingly, this worked pretty well (Falcon 9, for example). Until I moved to heavier launchers, and that's where I hit a wall: their upper stages seem to have abnormally low TWR. For example, I try to bring 14t to a 200km orbit using a Delta-4M+ with either 4M or 5M DCSS, which should be doable. The RL10B-2 has 110kN of thrust, and the resulting TWR is somewhere in the 0.2-0.3 range, which means I need to do something like 12-minute circularisation burn while only having 5 minutes of suborbital flight above the atmosphere. Looks impossible.

I understand that bringing smaller payloads to higher orbits (i.e. GTO) is easier, since you can shoot to higher apoapsis and have more time to circularise, not to mention your TWR is higher due to lighter payload. But what if I need to get something to ISS altitude? Get a 1000+ km Ap, raise Pe to the needed altitude, then bring the Ap back? Seems like a waste of fuel, and I highly doubt the real rockets do that. To those of you who build realistic rockets, how do you solve this?

[Guest]

Simple: you don't. Use a Zenit, Titan or perhaps the Proton for LEO launches, Centaur and DCSS are both GEO-optimized stages, with abysmal TWR on their upper stages. They're not strong enough to bring a payload to LEO. Antares, Falcon 9 and H-II are all examples of rockets which can launch to LEO, while anything with an RL-10 powered upper stage requires a rather high orbit, usually higher than ISS is on. If you really want to use the Atlas, consider mounting a DEC. It's dual RL-10 should be more in line with what you need. Still, you might need to launch high and lower your orbit later.