[0.23.5] Realism Overhaul: ROv5.2 + Modlist for RSS 6/30/14

[O Nerd]

I have a few questions, could you guys please answer me?

1. Have all probe experiments (Sputnik I, II, etc) 100% transmission rates?

2. Exactly how much Delta-v is necessary to get into orbit?

I'll be grateful if you can answer me.

[coldblade2000]

You need about 9000-9500m/s delta-v for an orbit. Remember to make it above 200km, the atmosphere is bigger

[Agathorn]

So I see that RO has a MM override to modify Mission Controller (MCE) for prices, but what about distances? For example the new ARM missions that specify an orbit target? With RO/RSS those orbits would be in the atmosphere

[NathanKell]

TeeGee: congratulations! That is a big accomplishment!

Although I'll have to join in with the others in my curiosity at how you managed to make it to orbit on 8000m/s dV. Is this your orbital velocity? Is this the total dV expended, as MechJeb reports it? Is it your all-up vacuum deltaV, as shown by MJ or KER in the VAB?

...oh. Maybe it's your all-up atmospheric deltaV? Your vacuum dV would obviously much higher, and you'll only lose a few hundred m/s from that, tops, to pressure and nozzle losses, so that's the more reliable number.

350x350 is actually pretty fine as an orbit; you only want to go lower than 185x185 if you're not staying in the orbit for more than a few hours. 300x300 is really the lowest practical orbit that won't reenter in a few hours' time.

Agathorn: welcome back! Yes, the first post is up to date, although you may want to pull RO from source since a new version is about to be released.

I haven't used MC in ages (it's been, wow, almost a year since I got started modding by contributing code to it...) so I don't know where the distances are set. If they're set in the mission package, then unless malkuth has added a global scalar (I doubt it; ask, and if not, ask him to) then you'll have to edit the mission package (i.e. all missions) manually.

O Nerd: Oh crap! I think I missed a PM of yours. I'll get back to you ASAP.

1. Yes, although IIRC there's a bug with RT2 that sometimes fail to deliver 100% transmission. Also, question for the RPL thread.

2. 9-9.5km/sec expended, which probably translates to a mimimum of 9.3km/sec vacuum dV for your launcher. Smaller, lighter launchers will suffer greater drag losses, and launchers with low TWR will suffer higher gravity losses.

[TeeGee]

TeeGee: congratulations! That is a big accomplishment!

Although I'll have to join in with the others in my curiosity at how you managed to make it to orbit on 8000m/s dV. Is this your orbital velocity? Is this the total dV expended, as MechJeb reports it? Is it your all-up vacuum deltaV, as shown by MJ or KER in the VAB?

...oh. Maybe it's your all-up atmospheric deltaV? Your vacuum dV would obviously much higher, and you'll only lose a few hundred m/s from that, tops, to pressure and nozzle losses, so that's the more reliable number.

350x350 is actually pretty fine as an orbit; you only want to go lower than 185x185 if you're not staying in the orbit for more than a few hours. 300x300 is really the lowest practical orbit that won't reenter in a few hours' time.

Agathorn: welcome back! Yes, the first post is up to date, although you may want to pull RO from source since a new version is about to be released.

I haven't used MC in ages (it's been, wow, almost a year since I got started modding by contributing code to it...) so I don't know where the distances are set. If they're set in the mission package, then unless malkuth has added a global scalar (I doubt it; ask, and if not, ask him to) then you'll have to edit the mission package (i.e. all missions) manually.

O Nerd: Oh crap! I think I missed a PM of yours. I'll get back to you ASAP.

1. Yes, although IIRC there's a bug with RT2 that sometimes fail to deliver 100% transmission. Also, question for the RPL thread.

2. 9-9.5km/sec expended, which probably translates to a mimimum of 9.3km/sec vacuum dV for your launcher. Smaller, lighter launchers will suffer greater drag losses, and launchers with low TWR will suffer higher gravity losses.

Now I'm worried.... how did I do that?? I thought making LEO required 7800 delta v so I gave my rocket 8000 to compensate for drag or a suboptimal launch. I reached apoapsis of 130 km and burned at 0 degrees to bring up my periapsis. When I started nearing my apoaps, I lifted my nose up to 5 degrees ish and since I couldn't throttle up I burned my apoaps all the way up to 350 with a periaps of 40 km.

I took a screenshot as a momento but the game didn't record it!! EDIT: YES IT DID!!! See post below!!

Im gonna go into my VAB to see what is going on because everyone is shocked to see this...

Edited June 22, 2014 by TeeGee

[TeeGee]

I DID TAKE A PICTURE!! I knew I did!

Here is the craft on pad with mechjeb on showing delta v. Before the LES is ejected:

After:

OH MAYBE I know what's going on! I'm using the Kerbin version of ROS! It uses less delta v than the Earth version? http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/78895

Edited June 22, 2014 by TeeGee

[Vigelius]

That hasn't happened to me. Gimbling for me works just fine (I am using RftS pack). Maybe you installed a dll incorrectly, left one out, or a setting got changed along the way to make them more powerful. Not sure, but My guess is that what you are experiencing is not an intended effect. I would go back to the first RO post and make sure you got everything (it is so easy to miss a dll here and there)

I'm using the RE pack. I stripped out the Klockheed_Martian gimbal dll and stuck a fresh one back in, that seemed to fix my problem (at the very least reduced it far enough to be workable).

I've finally achieved what I was shooting for! A report with pics is now up!

I didn't go with the full Realism Overhaul collection in the end, but so many of my problems were answered reading through parts of this thread that you all have my eternal gratitude!

[AndreyATGB]

I remember seeing a mod that allowed you to keep pressing . to increase physical time warp however much you want. Anyone know what it was called?

DynamicWarp it is.

Edited June 22, 2014 by AndreyATGB

[TeeGee]

Ok, NOW I've made it into LEO! Finally, it took me a few tries to find a adequate ascent profile but I did it with too much delta v AGAIN (about 9700 m/s), that put me into a 912/209 km orbit with my second stage alone and no engine restarts (real engine ignitor). So I cut down my delta v in the VAB to about 9500 m/s.

THE hardest part about flying into orbit isn't the delta v, it's the ascent profile. You gotta make sure you don't hit your apoapsis going up when you are trying to bring the periaps up as well. I'm still unsure when to begin my gravity turn, I used to start edging at about 150 m/s after launch and pitch to 45 degrees until I reached my target apoapsis but that's not good enough here. You NEED the first stage to start circularizing early in the flight.

Does mechjeb screw everyone up as well when they are trying to maneuver during the ascent? It's like it doesn't know what to do even when I explicitly dictate directions for example hold roll 180 degrees and pitch 30 and heading 90 etc. It flips out my rockets everytime.

Something that scared me... my rocket ended up being HUGE. It was 3 stages (only took 2 to make orbit), was super tall and intimidating to fly, but she did very well. The only problem I have is performing a roll maneuver with the RD 170 in my first stage... she can't gimbal and roll so I put tail fins on her to help, which worked.

I really need to work on my ascent profile though. Any tips?

[RedAV8R]

I'm using a gravity turn start at 1.2km

Stop at 275km

Orbit at ~400km

40%

Works for most of mine, but they also require a 2nd burn, most 'orbit' stages should have at least 1 restart available, or the payload itself should have enough propulsion to get to your final orbit.

[BadRocketsCo.]

Hello!

I need help with a bug. I already made a post about it, you can see it here: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/83763-New-kind-of-Kraken

I will share the output_log soon as well

[Vigelius]

Ok, NOW I've made it into LEO! Finally, it took me a few tries to find a adequate ascent profile but I did it with too much delta v AGAIN (about 9700 m/s), that put me into a 912/209 km orbit with my second stage alone and no engine restarts (real engine ignitor). So I cut down my delta v in the VAB to about 9500 m/s.

THE hardest part about flying into orbit isn't the delta v, it's the ascent profile. You gotta make sure you don't hit your apoapsis going up when you are trying to bring the periaps up as well. I'm still unsure when to begin my gravity turn, I used to start edging at about 150 m/s after launch and pitch to 45 degrees until I reached my target apoapsis but that's not good enough here. You NEED the first stage to start circularizing early in the flight.

Does mechjeb screw everyone up as well when they are trying to maneuver during the ascent? It's like it doesn't know what to do even when I explicitly dictate directions for example hold roll 180 degrees and pitch 30 and heading 90 etc. It flips out my rockets everytime.

Something that scared me... my rocket ended up being HUGE. It was 3 stages (only took 2 to make orbit), was super tall and intimidating to fly, but she did very well. The only problem I have is performing a roll maneuver with the RD 170 in my first stage... she can't gimbal and roll so I put tail fins on her to help, which worked.

I really need to work on my ascent profile though. Any tips?

Yep, weird MechJeb behaviour happens to me too. 2 main problems, first is that it gets confused moving to a target attitude and forgets to stop turning, second is that if it's already in the correct heading it then executes a rapid, repeated 90-degree roll back and forth. My solution is usually to let MechJeb point me in the right direction but actually execute the manoeuvres myself.

In terms of gravity turn, slowly-slowly-catchy-monkey. Begin the turn almost as soon as you leave the pad, but only keel over by a couple of degrees. Then follow your prograde vector the rest of the way, that should have you following a decent ascent path. The marker a lot of people seem to go by is that you want to be at 45 degrees by the time you hit 1km/s - I tend to get there at more like 1.3/1.4km/s.

Remember that the good stuff is horizontal velocity - so long as you haven't reached apoapsis yet, you can burn horizontally and it will keep rising! Also it isn't the end of the world if you have to keep burning after you pass apoapsis, so no need to lose sleep over it getting a bit too high.

In the MechJeb ascent guidance window you can turn on 'show prograde marker', which will essentially give you a heading to aim for but won't turn on the autopilot. You can then fly the ascent yourself, but keep an eye on where the autopilot would be steering you. I find that helps a whole lot. It can be a little jumpy though, so take it with a pinch of salt.

[Mirean]

My usual ascent profile is to begin the gravity turn at ~60m/s (starting TWR is usually around 1.3) and slowly turn over, following the prograde vector. I usually aim at 2-3minutes time to apoapsis at MECO and it works fine. My second stage has starting TWR of 0.85-1 and burn time usually around 6 minutes and I adjust the pitch so that I hit orbital velocity exactly at apoapsis - this gives me a perfect circular orbit. DeltaV needed is usually around 9500m/s for ~250km circular orbit, although I usually pack around 10km/s just to be safe.

[TeeGee]

Yep, weird MechJeb behaviour happens to me too. 2 main problems, first is that it gets confused moving to a target attitude and forgets to stop turning, second is that if it's already in the correct heading it then executes a rapid, repeated 90-degree roll back and forth. My solution is usually to let MechJeb point me in the right direction but actually execute the manoeuvres myself.

In terms of gravity turn, slowly-slowly-catchy-monkey. Begin the turn almost as soon as you leave the pad, but only keel over by a couple of degrees. Then follow your prograde vector the rest of the way, that should have you following a decent ascent path. The marker a lot of people seem to go by is that you want to be at 45 degrees by the time you hit 1km/s - I tend to get there at more like 1.3/1.4km/s.

Remember that the good stuff is horizontal velocity - so long as you haven't reached apoapsis yet, you can burn horizontally and it will keep rising! Also it isn't the end of the world if you have to keep burning after you pass apoapsis, so no need to lose sleep over it getting a bit too high.

In the MechJeb ascent guidance window you can turn on 'show prograde marker', which will essentially give you a heading to aim for but won't turn on the autopilot. You can then fly the ascent yourself, but keep an eye on where the autopilot would be steering you. I find that helps a whole lot. It can be a little jumpy though, so take it with a pinch of salt.

So the ascent guidance mechjeb gives us is accurate?

[Agathorn]

Agathorn: welcome back! Yes, the first post is up to date, although you may want to pull RO from source since a new version is about to be released.

I haven't used MC in ages (it's been, wow, almost a year since I got started modding by contributing code to it...) so I don't know where the distances are set. If they're set in the mission package, then unless malkuth has added a global scalar (I doubt it; ask, and if not, ask him to) then you'll have to edit the mission package (i.e. all missions) manually.

Yeah that is my suspicion after looking over the configs last night. I've posted in his thread. Hopefully we cab get a scale value to set!

[Agathorn]

What is the scale difference on the modified planets in RSS now? I'm just going to write a script to change the mission configs.

[RedAV8R]

Hello!

I need help with a bug. I already made a post about it, you can see it here: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/83763-New-kind-of-Kraken

I will share the output_log soon as well

Without a log and more info not much help can be given.

[coldblade2000]

You shouldn't do a gravity turn based on height. Depending on your TWR, you start at different speeds. With TWR of 1.3, you turn 5 degrees when you ht 100m/s. With TWR of 1.6 , you start it at 50m/s. Remember to use the sea level twr.

[coldblade2000]

I had that bug. Pretty sure it was "Tweakable everything" or "ActionGroupManager"

[TeeGee]

> I ended up giving too much delta v (8000 m/s because I like to be liberal with delta v)

How DID you cram in an extra 8km/s DV? That number is something people spend hours on working to get. Also that doesn't seem enough to make orbit anyway, especially a 350km one.

> I feel so accomplished right now. I am getting psyched up for my lunar mission and can't wait to get there! Then I'm gonna go to Mars... that will be super exciting because even WE haven't done that yet!

Don't worry, the roller coaster of emotions in a lunar trip are incredible, it is definitely worth it.

>I'm still debating whether I should build a space shuttle, I know I can but is it practical... hmmm. I'm sure I can build a space station with fewer launches using a heavy lift rather than using a shuttle.

Build the shuttle. You learn a lot of stuff along the way: Building a re-entry capable space plane, flying a brick, learning to deal with off-center thrust, SRB's, huge tanks that need to be aerodynamical, using 3 gimbaling engines, having an extremely low amount of orbit delta-v (about 400m/s), learning to adapt your payloads instead of your rockets (you have to make the payload fit), weird angle dockings, putting RCS on abnormal rockets. Since you do the same type of launch a lot of times, you learn to optimize it perfectly and make orbit with as little fuel as possible. I, an experienced player (I've got to the moon and back with engine ignitor, built countless stations, organized over 5 GEO satellite arrays and have a fleet of extremely optimized rockets) still haven't been able to make a shuttle. I wish I could reap those benefits. It is in no way easy, but it gives a lot of advantages. Good luck anyway.

Sigh, building a shuttle in RSO is even harder now. I can't get the damn thing to fly straight off the launch pad. I've moved the CoM higher and higher, srbs more ventral and stick can't get the thrust vector to fly through the CoM.

[NathanKell]

TeeGee: Yes, the 6.4x Kerbin has vastly lower dV requirements. Earth is about 11x Kerbin's size, so you can imagine the dV required for 6.4x Kerbin will be somewhere between KSP's 3.3km/sec and Earth's 9.3km/sec. Probably something like 6-7km/sec.

As for your ascent profile: start turn at 100m/s. You can use the guides here, even though they're for RSS they should work well enough for you.

https://github.com/NathanKell/RealSolarSystem/wiki/_pages

(Ferrma's for manual and mine for MJ).

Circularizing after apogee is fine; many current LVs do that.

Agathorn: Are orbits given as altitude or SMA? If altitude, there's not a linear scale, since LEO in real life is 180-2000km, MEO is 2000-35786km, and HEO is above that. Lunar orbit, however, may not be different from stock KSP's, whereas with Dres playing Saturn, the change is massive. Etc.

[Agathorn]

TeeGee: Yes, the 6.4x Kerbin has vastly lower dV requirements. Earth is about 11x Kerbin's size, so you can imagine the dV required for 6.4x Kerbin will be somewhere between KSP's 3.3km/sec and Earth's 9.3km/sec. Probably something like 6-7km/sec.

As for your ascent profile: start turn at 100m/s. You can use the guides here, even though they're for RSS they should work well enough for you.

https://github.com/NathanKell/RealSolarSystem/wiki/_pages

(Ferrma's for manual and mine for MJ).

Circularizing after apogee is fine; many current LVs do that.

Agathorn: Are orbits given as altitude or SMA? If altitude, there's not a linear scale, since LEO in real life is 180-2000km, MEO is 2000-35786km, and HEO is above that. Lunar orbit, however, may not be different from stock KSP's, whereas with Dres playing Saturn, the change is massive. Etc.

They are given in altitude. Damn. I was hoping for a linear value. I was going to mod MCE to add a "body scalar" value that could be applied in realtime. The idea was that each body could have a scalar value applied to it, so you could set each individually. But if a simple scalar won't work then that throws that idea out the window.

[Vigelius]

So the ascent guidance mechjeb gives us is accurate?

From what I've seen, yes.

[Agathorn]

So i've built a new random contracts config for MCE that should be more compatible with RSS scales. I'm just tweaking and testing things now and then will make it available once i'm happy with it.

[Agathorn]

If anyone wants, you can get my Mission Controller Extended "random contracts" RSS compatible config from the link below. This includes modifications to the default contract orbit altitudes to hopefully put them in line with RSS scale, as well as adding a couple new ones.

Overwrite the one that comes with MCE (since this is a straight up config, and not a Module Manager file).

Please let me know if something looks wrong in here.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/txxz09h8xx0rgnv/MCContracts.cfg