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[WIP] *EXPIRED THREAD* Kerbal Construction Time - see new thread for latest version


Ekku Zakku

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Wow, just wow! How did I miss this? Back when I started my AAR I set up a simple rule to limit research time, and considered construction times too but didn't go for the latter. But this? Wonderful! I gotta try this when I get home. Keep up the wonderful work Ekku Zakku!

A few thoughts. From playing the science cost through I based my times on the research cost. While this does have merit it does mean a vast difference in times between start (a few days) to end (a few years if using KSPI). If something like this is done in your mod I'd suggest adding in 'upgrades to infrastructure' that are buildable at points in the tech tree. These would, once build increase research speed in increments. Add a studies building... then a samples lab, then an observatory etc.

Similarly could you have construction limited to one ship at a time at the start, then add buildings to increase the number of ships built simultaneously later on? Perhaps even special buildings that speed up certain aspects of construction? Say a building specifically for constructing prototypes, reducing the large cost for 1st time builds. Or a mass production facility to make the gradual time reductions on ships repeatedly build increase.

All these buildings could just be variables with a visible flag in a window to represent them, though the thought of Kerb City buildings to represent these could be fun! :)

What you said earlier about SSTOs is interesting. I'd say, even if none of my above suggestions bear fruit, that any vehicle that comes back intact adds a bonus reduction to construction of an identical craft for the next build only. As time to build go down this becomes more significant and eventually could reduce times to a tenth of construction time, to represent refueling/maintenance.

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Oh yes, Patupi, these are all amazing ideas... I hope if they do implement the whole KSC building destruction thing mentioned a while back, that there will also be a way to add buildings to KSC itself; that would definitely fall into the ideas you just posted.

If not, then a lot of those ideas would still be wonderful when costs get implemented. Mass production would have an initial high cost to start, but will create the vessels more quickly.

Oh goodness, getting so ahead of myself on this thread lol. As for the next release, I'm having difficulty getting a save system to work (which is crucial for having a construction list), but I think I'm just going about it all wrong. I'll see what I can get done over the next busy week though.

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I'd offer to help out, and I am a good programmer, but I've never used C# or played with Unity. Unfortunately right now the only language I'm using is CNC G code... wich is maybe about twenty years out of date! Think of it like 80's basic with missing functions and letter number combination instead of meaningful words :) I've programmed in various basics, pascal, C, GML and a few others though as well as dabbling in Assembly way back when. That was annoying!

Oh, and as for the buildings... you don't need VAB addons really. Just a tab in whatever popup your using to display construction times that says what buildings are currently built. Perhaps add in a simple construction component that can be built on it's own and auto destructs on the pad that gives these 'buildings'. That way it takes time and money (when economy is done) and uses current systems to built. Once built the thing is only a variable to be used in your system for timed construction and show up on your menus.

Edited by Patupi
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I'd offer to help out, and I am a good programmer, but I've never used C# or played with Unity. Unfortunately right now the only language I'm using is CNC G code... wich is maybe about twenty years out of date! Think of it like 80's basic with missing functions and letter number combination instead of meaningful words :) I've programmed in various basics, pascal, C, GML and a few others though as well as dabbling in Assembly way back when. That was annoying!

Oh, and as for the buildings... you don't need VAB addons really. Just a tab in whatever popup your using to display construction times that says what buildings are currently built. Perhaps add in a simple construction component that can be built on it's own and auto destructs on the pad that gives these 'buildings'. That way it takes time and money (when economy is done) and uses current systems to built. Once built the thing is only a variable to be used in your system for timed construction and show up on your menus.

I know I don't need actual buildings, I was just thinking it would be cool later on lol. I'm sure something of the sort might be doable with KSP in the future. I'm not too sure what I would need in terms of programming help right now other than having somebody jumping in and doing GUI's or something, idk. Not really in the need for pseudocode or anything lol. C# is super simple though, I definitely recommend picking it up =3 Also bah, assembly is easy, just takes way more time XD

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I know I don't need actual buildings, I was just thinking it would be cool later on lol. I'm sure something of the sort might be doable with KSP in the future. I'm not too sure what I would need in terms of programming help right now other than having somebody jumping in and doing GUI's or something, idk. Not really in the need for pseudocode or anything lol. C# is super simple though, I definitely recommend picking it up =3 Also bah, assembly is easy, just takes way more time XD

Yeah, Assembler is easy, just annoying in detail. Pop this, LDA that, ad infinitum. I've been meaning to learn both C# (or C++) and Java for a while now. Just never made time for it. *sigh* It's bad enough me getting time to write. I"ve a novel half finished... and been half finished for... oh, heck. Over seven years anyway :) Procrastination and me go way back.

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OK, just a thought. Do you know anything about how any of the off-world construction mods work? Like Extraplanetary Launchpads or Orbital construction? I was wondering (And thought I'd ask here before their own threads) if this timed construction could work there. Delays in building at such facilities would work wonders, especially if different construction components worked faster than others.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm loving this so far, and doing some testing to see how it plays with TAC life support for unloaded ships. Also, you might want to consider integrating in to the Universal mod toolbar by Blizzy78 HERE.

Update: Works fine with TAC, but its a good idea to play with crew manifest to remove any kerbals from the active vessel while it builds, then add kerbals just before launch.

The only thing I would say is it seems that the build times on just generic rockets seems a little fast, since I cranked out a rocket that could send a 50 ton payload to orbit in 5 days. We'll see how it handles once I get a probe or rover with a hundred parts or so up on it :)

As for space planes, I think it gives even more reason to land at KSC as you could always send a refueling vessel out, and actually maintain a small fleet of flying craft to taxi on to the runway as you need them.

Edited by KeithStone
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Can't wait for the next update.

I'm getting a bit annoyed that all the mods that rely on empty tanks, get filled up at launch thanks to this mod (its kind of cheating)

But other than that I really like this mod, makes it all feel a bit more real.

And it gives tac life support a bit more use because now I really need to plan missions so that I don't kill them all because they ran out of air.

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Agreed. This mod plus TAC makes for a much more interesting game. Planning launch windows and making sure your craft can build while making sure your crew can survive in space is great. If I could build a space plane that was worth a darn I would love to load it back up with cargo and fuel using KAS so I could have an emergency ascent vehicle.

After messing around with it some more I still think the launch times need to at very least double, but I'd even say 4x higher. 20days to a month for a medium rocket with payload feels a lot better, since it doesnt take too much to throw a year's worth of supplies at a space station, making this mod not play as big of a role as 5 days between rocket launches is a pretty small window and doesnt increase the challenge. The only thing that might do it is to combine this mod with a "no revert" rule. Then those 5 day windows can extend way out as you test the same rocket and payload a few times...

Edited by KeithStone
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Hey guys, thanks for your input! Testing really helps me out since I don't have a lot of time to do so myself, and it's great that I'm getting the input that I need. I think I can double the launch times pretty easily, I just didn't want to make them too high due to the time warping; 40 seconds of waiting to put a massive rocket on the launch pad would be a pain. Current build times are based around that. I suppose I can make it an option for the next update, since I'm working on save files as it is. I'm going to do my best to try and get around time warping using the game's time warp and do it instantly as well, but that will likely be a later feature.

Christmas and New Years has been quite busy for me, and my girlfriend is visiting until the end of this week, so it will be next week when I get to the next update most likely. Just wanted to let you guys know since you all have been discussing =3

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Thanks, I'm glad to see you still around! I agree, using the timewarp on the pad makes me feel like i might have a seizure, so if you could get around that and just force an edit to the game time that would be wicked. As is though I think it adds a much needed push to things like TAC. Love it and cant wait to see what you have in store for the update.

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Editing game time should only be an issue for ECLSS (I *think* that's the only mod that handles unloaded vessels per tick rather than on loading them). The other life support mods handled unloaded resource use when you reload the vessel, and orbits etc. are all just based on calculations of UT - vessel.epoch

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I was going to use this in a new modded series, but since I was using TAC life support I had the issue of Waste and WasteWater and all that filling up when the craft was finished building, along with not having any resources for the Kerbals during the build time. When a build list get's implemented so the craft doesn't actually get put on the pad until it's finished, then I'll definitely be using it. Until then I think I'm going to have to hold off, unfortunately :/

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I was going to use this in a new modded series, but since I was using TAC life support I had the issue of Waste and WasteWater and all that filling up when the craft was finished building, along with not having any resources for the Kerbals during the build time. When a build list get's implemented so the craft doesn't actually get put on the pad until it's finished, then I'll definitely be using it. Until then I think I'm going to have to hold off, unfortunately :/

Use it with Crew manifiest so you can unload your kerbals from the vessel during construction, then add kerbals back to the selected parts you want :)

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Use it with Crew manifiest so you can unload your kerbals from the vessel during construction, then add kerbals back to the selected parts you want :)

The only issue then is that it fills the Waste and WasteWater and Carbon Dioxide, and if I were using Kethane it would probably fill that too. If the first ones get filled, it will also kill the Kerbals. Unless Crew Manifest lets you adjust resources before launch too?

For the author: Is there some way to detect what resources should be empty on launch, as a temporary fix until the build list is made?

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Hi Ekku

I made an account specifically to post on this thread because I love the idea of controlling construction times on ksp. Anything that makes it more realistic and ups the difficulty is a big bonus in my book.

Anyway, I was reading the other responses and suggestions and one thing I thought might be worth considering is rather than adjusting time based on the size of the rocket, how about construction based on the complexity of the components that are to be attached in the final build? For example, the basic rockets LVT-30 would take less time to develop than the LVT-45 since the latter has the added feature of vector control. It would seem that the more complex a piece of machinery is, the longer it would take to construct it if this is at all possible.

Also in regards to the simulation and the need to get construction done to make launch windows, perhaps there could be an option to "Rush construction" which would reduce the time to a user defined amount. The drawback of rushed construction could be disastrous errors in the mechanics of the rocket thus leading to rapid disassembly. These flaws may or may not be present in the actual simulation as you suggested in a previous post but show up during launch.

Thanks for reading!

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Hey guys, since it's been a little while since the last update (a month according to GitHub) and the issue with the filling of resources was preventing me from using this, I decided to just make a change myself as a workaround. I'm uploading my version of the .dll (Never used Visual Studio before, that was a fun adventure). Ekku, I'm not trying to rush you or take over or anything, take all the time you need, but I figured others may find this change useful. This also includes a change to the GUI to display the current date in days-hours-minutes-seconds using the GetFormatedTime function (which is misspelled, it should be Formatted instead of Formated, but that is messing with trivialities).

Download (mediafire): HERE

(put it in the Plugins folder like before)

All I did was add a new List for the resources, which gets populated when ManageFuel is called with addFuel=false. Upon ManageFuel being called with addFuel=true, the amount is set to the stored amount. WARNING: This means you can't decouple or destroy any parts before completion, or the amounts that they get refilled may be incorrect! (this method depends on the vessel and resources being traversed in the same order each time)

What does this mean for gameplay? You can use the tweakables function to reduce any resource in a part and it will be refilled with the right amount, and things like TAC Life Support's Waste and WasteWater and all that will be set to 0 at launch, like they should be. (Also, for those with TAC, have you actually seen a kerbal die on the launchpad because of no resources? I tested, and couldn't get one to die. It appears to only initiate after launch, meaning Crew Manifest is not necessary, but still makes more sense in a roleplay fashion [who would sit in a rocket for several days on the launchpad?])

Here's the specific code for Ekku (or anyone else who wants to see what the change was). I have no idea how to push a commit to github, and it was a small enough change that I figured I could just post it here:

private List<double> initialResources = new List<double>();
/// <summary>
/// Completely fill or remove fuel from a vessel.
/// </summary>
/// <param name="vessel">Vessel to manage fuel</param>
/// <param name="addFuel">True: fill fuel, False: empty fuel</param>
public void ManageFuel(Vessel vessel, bool addFuel)
{
int index = 0;
foreach (Part p in vessel.Parts)
{
foreach (PartResource pr in p.Resources)
{
if (addFuel)
{
pr.amount = initialResources.ElementAt(index);
}
else
{
initialResources.Add(pr.amount);
pr.amount = 0;
}
index++;
}

}

}

Oh yes, one more thing, per the license:

Copyright (c) 2013, Zachary Eck (a.k.a. Ekku Zakku) All rights reserved.

Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met:

1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.

2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.

THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND CONTRIBUTORS "AS IS" AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE COPYRIGHT HOLDER OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.

Kerbal Space Program is Copyright (C) 2013 Squad. See http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/. This project is in no way associated with nor endorsed by Squad.

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Awesome! Thanks for doing that yourself while I'm still working on the save system, still having some difficulty with it and I'm also busy job hunting. I'm gonna take Squad's route and not give any more hopeful release dates... lol. I'll get there, eventually.

Everybody, please feel free to modify the source code to meet your needs while I'm working on the next update! I don't have anything against that XD

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Just to say I am very interested in this (I just spent half an hour looking for this thread). To offer my 2cents worth - I would be interested in being able to add subassemblies to the construction queue - so I could have several of my standard small medium and heavy boosters on order, but the actual spacecraft or payload would constructed and then bolted ontop seperately.

I am looking forward to a formal release :)

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Something I was thinking about regarding construction of heavily used things (whether ships or launchers) is keeping track of things on a part by part basis. Increment a counter each time a part is used (either for every instance of the part on a craft, or just once per craft) and each time the part is used the construction time for that part decreases. Then ships that are relaunched a lot would keep getting faster to build (to a minimum value) and launchers that are used a lot would eventually not add much time. Perhaps when you recover a ship, the parts get added to an "inventory" and those parts get used first at minimum construction time, making the next ship using the recovered parts a lot faster to build.

It's also easy to code: You only need to keep a file with the part name, the overall total used, and the number in inventory. The issue is reverts, but then you just keep two instances of the file (which can just be in RAM), one for if the launch is kept and one from before the launch. If they revert, switch bask to the old one, if they don't then make the new one the main one.

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I fixed/changed a couple more things on the version I was playing around with. Namely I fixed a severe bug where reverting to launch or changing focus to another ship would prevent a vessel from ever filling with fuel. This is a bug I noticed in the official version of the plugin as well. Changes include:

* Fixed bug with reverting to launch/changing focus not filling ships

* Fixed bug with not automatically filling when time is up (but only if you press the Warp to Launch button)

* Made the main GUI only appear when a ship is still being built on the launchpad (no longer appears when focusing on ships in Space)

* Various internal changes to fix these bugs

* Works with tweakables/TAC Life Support/Kethane/any mod that has resources that are 0 at launch

You can now switch vessels and do some other mission while this one is building, but if you exit the game COMPLETELY then you will lose ALL progress on that vessel (bug exists in official version too). Changing to a different save will probably also result in the same.

This time the download is a .zip file. You only need the Plugins folder. The src is for anyone interested (mainly Ekku) and the license is Ekku's original license which must be included with any redistribution.

Download (mediafire): Here

As always, the files I put up are not official. Nor have they been tested extensively. They're just changes/fixes I've made to make the current (still very much alpha) version more playable.

The initialResources List was moved to be a part of the KCTVessel, so that each vessel could store the initial resources. I needed to implement the CopyVesselProperties method in KCTVessel to workaround the issue with KCT_GameStates.activeVessel being reset to an "old" version saved in the vessel list when reverting/switching focus. It would fill up the KCT activeVessel but that wasn't the ACTUAL in game active vessel. It also worked by just getting the activeVessel straight from the game, but I had worries that could cause issues if the focus was somehow on another ship. What you end up doing to fix the bug is obviously all up to you (and it probably won't exist after the build list anyway).

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I fixed/changed a couple more things on the version I was playing around with. Namely I fixed a severe bug where reverting to launch or changing focus to another ship would prevent a vessel from ever filling with fuel. This is a bug I noticed in the official version of the plugin as well. Changes include:

* Fixed bug with reverting to launch/changing focus not filling ships

* Fixed bug with not automatically filling when time is up (but only if you press the Warp to Launch button)

* Made the main GUI only appear when a ship is still being built on the launchpad (no longer appears when focusing on ships in Space)

* Various internal changes to fix these bugs

* Works with tweakables/TAC Life Support/Kethane/any mod that has resources that are 0 at launch

You can now switch vessels and do some other mission while this one is building, but if you exit the game COMPLETELY then you will lose ALL progress on that vessel (bug exists in official version too). Changing to a different save will probably also result in the same.

This time the download is a .zip file. You only need the Plugins folder. The src is for anyone interested (mainly Ekku) and the license is Ekku's original license which must be included with any redistribution.

Download (mediafire): Here

As always, the files I put up are not official. Nor have they been tested extensively. They're just changes/fixes I've made to make the current (still very much alpha) version more playable.

The initialResources List was moved to be a part of the KCTVessel, so that each vessel could store the initial resources. I needed to implement the CopyVesselProperties method in KCTVessel to workaround the issue with KCT_GameStates.activeVessel being reset to an "old" version saved in the vessel list when reverting/switching focus. It would fill up the KCT activeVessel but that wasn't the ACTUAL in game active vessel. It also worked by just getting the activeVessel straight from the game, but I had worries that could cause issues if the focus was somehow on another ship. What you end up doing to fix the bug is obviously all up to you (and it probably won't exist after the build list anyway).

This is awesome! Thanks for the fix, I can actually use this now. :)

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  • 2 weeks later...

Back again with some more fixes and something new. New to KCT: the ability to close the game! I've spent far more time than I should have on getting the currently building vessels to save their state, but now you can have vessels on the launch pad when you exit your game and they won't lose their progress when you return. I think this brings the mod to the state of "functionally playable for everyday use". Certainly not feature complete, and definitely not free from bugs, but very playable (I've been using it in my youtube series for a little while now without any issues. Those videos aren't up yet, and that was also before the new saving feature.) This hasn't been fully tested yet in an actual game, so it may have unexpected bugs. It creates a file called KCT_Ships.txt in your save folder which contains all the vessel information.

I've also improved compatibility with Kerbal Alarm Clock. The official version of this plugin has partially compatibility, but regularly misses alarms by an hour or so when at high time warp. My last version just blows through alarms like they never happened (sorry about that). This time I took it one step further and now alarms that are set to go off in MORE THAN AN HOUR or so shouldn't be missed at all. If they're less than an hour, please warp normally with the period/comma keys!

You also can have different vessels building at the same time on the runway and launchpad. This technically worked in the last version I made too. They will both be saved and will function when you reload the game.

Changes (since last version):

* KCT window closes automatically when the vessel is complete

* Improved Kerbal Alarm Clock support (hopefully no more missed alarms)

* Added saving of vessels that are under construction. Not strenuously tested and so may have bugs.

* Disabled control of vessels that are under construction (no staging, throttling, moving, etc)

Known Bugs:

* You can get control of a vessel that's being built by getting it into physics range and switching focus to it. It still won't have resources though.

* KCT_Ships.txt may be keeping ships that no longer exist or have been finished for a long time. It may grow unnecessarily large in a primary save game.

Download (mediafire): Download

All you need is the Plugins folder. (You can put the .dll in GameData if you prefer, in it's own folder. I tested that and it works just fine.)

So saving things with a ConfigNode is annoying. I think I sort of understand it now, but it took a long time for me to figure it out. It seems comparable to a TileEntity in Minecraft modding. Confusing at first but really useful once you understand it. I used this tutorial to figure it out. I had to write a way to save a KCTVessel called KCTVesselStorage and then just saved a List<KCTVesselStorage> to the file. It may be possible to save it into the persistence.sfs but I didn't want to mess with that too much. When the Flight Scene is loaded it loads the List and converts the KCTVesselStorage items into KCTVessel items and then saves that as the KCT_GameStates.vesselList. One issue is that the KCTVessel objects don't have valid vessel objects attached to them, I can't save a vessel into the file easily, so instead I save the vessel.id and the vessel.vesselName. The rest of the flight code then checks the list to see if the ActiveVessel.id == KCTVessel.vessel.id and if so sets the KCTVessel.vessel to the ActiveVessel. This means that the non-valid vessel never really gets used and is overwritten when the vessel will be acted upon.

I could probably implement a basic build list and the item inventory with only a couple days of work, but that oversteps the "bug fixing" nature of my fixes and starts implementing new features. This release sits on that line as vessel saving is needed for basic functionality but is also a "new feature" added by this. I spent a lot of time on it though, so I figured I'd let others use it too. As always, everything is copyrighted to Ekku, including anything new I add.

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I discussed things with magico13 and decided that he should take over this project. He's now the official owner of KCT, wish him luck with the mod! We'll post here when he has his development thread up, so everybody can go there.

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Hey everyone, just wanted to let you all know what my plans are now that I'm taking over development. I'm going to try to get some work done this weekend and then I'll start a new thread (and put the link here). In the meantime, continue using this thread for any discussion.

What I'd like to get done before the next release:

* Saving ships directly to the persistent.sfs file. This will make things a lot easier in the future because of KSP's non-linear time (quicksaves and reverts are annoying when using external files for tracking things)

* A method for reducing the time it takes to build a ship if you build it often/recover parts. This would be based on the method I mentioned a page or two back where its part based and using the same part on a lot of builds will reduce that part's impact on the overall build time. If you recover a ship, the parts of that ship are added to an "inventory" and those items get used up first with minimal effects on the time. That would make SSTOs have a fast turn around (most of the time would be spent on a new payload) and promotes reusable spacecraft, obviously limited by the 2.4km distance limit (boosters probably won't get reused, sadly). I'm thinking it would take maybe twice as long as normal for a ship with brand new parts, then after 4 launches it takes normal time, then after 16 it takes half the time, etc. Maybe something else, let me know your ideas.

* "Simulations" of launches. You don't have to wait for it to build, but you can't save/switch craft/EVA/etc. and it ends when Apoapsis goes over 250km or Periapsis goes over 70km or the vessel is destroyed. Then it reverts to before the launch, with no effect on the save. This could wait until after the build list, but when you change focus away from the building ship to focus on another mission you can no longer revert to VAB/SPH. So you can lose a couple days worth of time without even knowing if the craft can make it to orbit (I had that happen to me when I had about 10 days to rescue a guy and build+transfer time was going to be like 8 days. Luckily I backed up the save before putting the ship on the pad).

Longer term goals:

* The infamous Build List. Ships don't sit on the pad, they get added to a build list and can be launched once time has passed. There are several logistical issues to work out (crew, time warp in space center) but I have several ideas of how to handle things (and being able to save to the persistent.sfs file would make this way easier). Eventually being able to make progress on multiple ships would be nice (at a reduced rate) but at first it will be "first come, first served" and will build linearly.

* Toolbar support.

* Kerbal Alarm Clock support (not a high priority, you can always set alarms yourself, but the ability to create alarms directly would be handy and so would warping down correctly for alarms)

* Anything else you guys think should be implemented

I want everyone to be able to offer suggestions for how to handle things, but please don't get mad if I don't always do things the way you want. If I'm already mostly done with a feature and then you want me to change it completely, there's a good chance it won't get changed (at first at least).

I'm very excited to be given this opportunity! Please, offer your suggestions (in this thread for now) and I'll look over them before I get started working on the above items this weekend.

EDIT: The new thread is located here: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/69310-WIP-Kerbal-Construction-Time-PreRelease-1

Please move any discussion to this thread! After a proper release (aka the build list and bug fixes) I'll make an official thread in the Addon Releases sub-forum.

This first release primarily implements the things I mentioned above. The build time isn't doubled though. I may still add that in later if people think it would be good.

Edited by magico13
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