Rovers & Navigation

[LunaTrick]

I have landed my favorite rover on every body except Jool. I have probably driven my rover about 15% of the time I am in KSP, so I have covered hundreds of kilometers all around the Kerbol system.

Once I am on a body, I would like a few more things that would aid me in navigation and site selection. Here is what I would like to suggest:

I would like the rovers to leave persistent tracks. These tracks serve the same purpose as on earth. They show you where you've been, the exact route you took, and how to get back the same way you came. (Ever drive around the tunnels of Moho? Its a tough place to find a clear way to drive).

I had one hell of a time on Tylo, trying to drive my rover to where my launch vehicle was. I would look at map mode and determine that I need to travel in a certain direction. But when you go to the planet surface view, the orientation does not seem to be the same, and you can end up driving a long ways in the opposite direction.

This leads into two other suggestions:

Why in the world would the devs make the text of a far off ship on the surface of Tylo have nearly the same color as the background? Gray/white text on a gray surface makes it impossible to navigate this way. I have been asking since 0.20 to put these text notes in a "cartoon bubble" that has its own background rendering the text visible no matter what the surface/background color is.

Also, I would like a F key to turn on and off a surface grid showing lines of Lat & Lon as well as the equator. I should be able to do this from space and while on the surface.

Lastly, I would like a way to easily determine the rotation of any given body. For the grid I suggested above, it could just be little arrowhead tick marks on the equator. When I am coming into a SOI, I would like the predicted orbital path to show me somehow whether I am in a prograde orbit or a retrograde orbit - perhaps just by using two different colors.

Sorry if any of this has been discussed before. If it has, I haven't seen it. Any thoughts?

[a.g.]

Why don't you target the lander from map view and get a mark on the navball? The target-relative velocity is bugged for landed targets, but iirc the purple target direction works fine. You can even target flags.

[LunaTrick]

To be honest, I tried that. I think I was using the pink target like I would in space. But I could not figure out where to put the target on the Nav ball. For instance....do I orient the target at due north? I have a hard time using this 3-d tool on 2-d territory. I can easily follow maps. And that was where the idea for the nav-grid, I'll call it, came from.

The real problem is the useless colors used for text. I could follow those IF I COULD SEE THEM. I should be able to see the target name (Tylo ascent vehicle) and the distance to it while on the ground, but it is invisible to my eyes with the lack of contrast compared to the surface background. IMHO they did a lot of great visuals throughout the game, and have completely ignored this problem that others have also brought up. If they can do great graphics in most areas of the game, they should also be able to do it in this one area (text).

Consider the Nav-ball for a second. The delta-v remaining to be burned has the cartoon bubble behind it and it is ALWAYS legible. But just below that is the time to burn and it is not in a cartoon bubble. This is totally inconsistent and easy enough to fix. The same bubble should be used throughout the game where text is used.

But even if the text contrast issue is finally addressed, I still think the nav-grid and rover tracks would be very useful.

[Nobody]

I agree a 2D map option would be good to have for planes and rovers. For career mode have the map fill in over time through the use of rovers, planes, and satellites with mapping tools attached.

[kiwiak]

How did you managed to land on Kerbol?

[Kasuha]

To be honest, I tried that. I think I was using the pink target like I would in space. But I could not figure out where to put the target on the Nav ball. For instance....do I orient the target at due north?

You need to have it ahead of you. What is ahead depends on how do you have your command module oriented.

Is your rover using seats? If yes, and if you select "control from here" on these seats, the navball should be normally half blue half brown (brown at the bottom) and the ahead point is in the center of navball (or under/above it if it's below/above horizon). The same should be true for the cupola module if you place it horizontally (the way you see horizon from it, not sky).

If you use vertically placed probe core or the landing can to control your rover, your navball is all blue. Then the "ahead" point is at the top of the navball. This mode is not very suitable for driving towards your target because most of the time you won't see the marker (the navball top is hidden behind the speed display). And if the target is behind the horizon, you will see the triangular "ahead from target" marker instead. You need to put that at the bottom of your navball.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Kasuha

[LunaTrick]

@kiwiak

Easy.....I played Set The Controls For The Heart of the Sun by Pink Floyd while setting the maneuver nodes.

Of course I haven't landed on Kerbol. Only cheaters can do that (I think).

I am trying to get back to Moho and it is kicking my @$$. I think something has changed over the last few versions.

@Nobody

This grid should be part of the science we earn. Like after sending out probes, and before extensive exploration can begin.

Personally, I think we should not even see the planets until a ground based telescope has found them, but that has probably already been discussed.

[LunaTrick]

The same should be true for the cupola module if you place it horizontally (the way you see horizon from it, not sky).

I am using the cupola module. I am back on Moho. I only have one vehicle there, so I can't use a target, like a flag or another ship. The mission is to head north from the landing site of 24 degrees N to the northern tunnel at the pole.

I have found that the heading is useless. I still find myself guessing which direction to head in. I drive for a while and then revert to the map mode to see which direction I am heading relative to the lander that brought the rover there. I determine that I heading due north (eventually) and then look at the heading. It isn't anywhere near 0 degrees. So without a target I have the method I just described and one other. I use mechjebs custom editor to show lat & lon. I adjust my direction so that the northern axis is changing fast and the western axis is barely changing at all. This is very crude. Surely we can have tools that are better than this.

FWIW the rover autopilot in mechjeb is still pretty useless. If you use the nav heading of the AP you end up going in circles. If you set the speed, it ignores it and maxes out the speed, like it has for the last several versions.

We need better surface nav tools!

[TimMartland]

I think if your rover wheels and Kerbals left tracks in the dusty surface of planets that would be awesome. Also the colour of the ship, at least in my experience, depends on what it is (Purple for ships, yellow for probes and blue for stations are the examples that spring to mind)

[peadar1987]

I haven't tried it myself, but saw this plugin mentioned in another thread. Looks pretty cool! http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/49216-0-22-Persistent-Trails-record-share-and-replay-track-data!-%281-0-1%29

[Sirrobert]

To be honest, I tried that. I think I was using the pink target like I would in space. But I could not figure out where to put the target on the Nav ball. For instance....do I orient the target at due north? I have a hard time using this 3-d tool on 2-d territory. I can easily follow maps. And that was where the idea for the nav-grid, I'll call it, came from.

The target marker should be aligned with the prograde marker in that case

I agree it would be nice to get a little more tools for this though

[Kasuha]

I am using the cupola module.

...

I have found that the heading is useless.

I have constructed a simple cupola-driven rover to test it and I don't see any problem with heading at all. Images are in order North, East, South, West. Heading on Navball is in order 0°, 90°, 180°, 270°. Simple, obvious.

I guess your problem is that you don't have the cupola selected as "control from here" or you have it rotated, e.g. upside down. Have you checked how does the IVA view look like?

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Edited December 11, 2013 by Kasuha

[LunaTrick]

Simple, obvious.

Good luck with that design. But that is not my design. And if you tried my design, you would see that everything I said about the heading being worthless, was absolutely true.

I built my rover low to the ground and with a large wheel base. When I am in IVA I am looking out the round window, I see the stars because I used the module 90 degrees different from what you threw together. My module lays flat. Round window up. And that is why my heading is more like a bubble level that anything else. Worthless. And that is also why MechJeb's Rover AP does not work. If Squad changed the module so it could be used this way, then MechJeb's Rover AP would have worked. What I need to do is to go into IVA, reach down to the seat adjustment, rotate my seat 90 degrees forward, and then say "control from here", but that aint gonna happen unless Squad changes the functionality of the module.

I feel it is the best rover core, if you are not a minimalist. It gives me mass, width, some torque, and a one man seat. And plenty of little "shelves" to attach the science parts.

I just took my design to Moho and drove 357Km from the 24 parallel to the northern tunnel. I am now working on bringing back soil samples from the edge of the tunnel.

I have proven this design works very well. I am not changing it. And I don't want this difference of designs to take away from the original post's suggestions - better text, persistent rover tracks, and a nav-grid. An additional suggestion would be SQUAD: PLEASE make the biome at the poles of pay off big time in science! Especially for a sample returned to Kerban.

I'd like to show off some pictures of this epic journey, but I have never posted pics on this forum. Looks like you have to use an online storage website with a URL. I'm not a big fan of doing it that way.

If anyone is interested - PM me and I can email you some pics of the longest rover journey I ever made in KSP.

[Kasuha]

Good luck with that design. But that is not my design. And if you tried my design, you would see that everything I said about the heading being worthless, was absolutely true.

You posted no pictures, no craft file, no responses to points I wrote you should pay attention to, you're not even trying to find where the problem is. You just want to complain.

A rover using cupola pod which works correctly can clearly be built. The fact that it doesn't work for you is most likely not because the game is wrong, but because your design is wrong. If you don't want to fix it, you should not complain that it doesn't work.

[LunaTrick]

My design works on a 60 degree pitch. Does yours? I'll help you with that answer - No way. Don't tell me my design doesn't work. I have a 357Km trip that says it does.

I came here to make a few suggestions, not to debate a design, or have a pissing contest.

Please focus on the merit of my suggestions, not who's right or wrong.

[vexx32]

You know, for someone not interested in a competition, you seem awfully competitive, LunaTrick.

However, Kasuha... this is a suggestion thread. If you guys want to figure out whether a problem is caused by a design quirk, please take it to PMs (as long as you're both amenable), or even another thread in an appropriate place.

[LunaTrick]

I like your tagline, Vexx.

[Kasuha]

I'm sorry for being too intrusive.

My opinion is that the suggested functionality is not necessary because all needed tools and functions are already in the game.

It's of course completely up to the developers if they decide to improve it and I won't complain if they will.

[LunaTrick]

I saw a lot of weird shadow "tricks" on Moho. Some spooking looking stuff goes on at the poles. Quite a few times the shadow of the rover was way off to the side, and showed no connection to the rover itself. This does two things. It makes you think there is a second rover near by (shadow colored). And worse yet, there are times when the disembodied shadow makes you think that you are not on the ground and flying though the air, instead.

Imagine a person standing sometime just before sundown and they have a shadow - when the shadows are long (which is always the case at the poles of Moho). This person's shadow "connects" to the body at the feet. If the person jumps up, then the shadow no longer connects with the body and you know the person is in the air because of that lack of a connection. The same disconnection happens at the poles of Moho and it makes you feel like you are not on the ground.

Also, I was experiencing a weird acceleration problem. There were times when holding down on W for several seconds would only get you 0.7m/s on relatively smooth ground. Then after holding down on the W for quite a while (10-15 secs), suddenly a surge would happen and then all the speed you would normally expect would suddenly show up.

I know this sounds like a battery charging problem, or something similar, but the resource meter always showed that I had 1405 of 1405 electrical units available. Each battery read 100% and the RTG said it was working at 1% efficiency at the time the problem showed up.

I was thinking that maybe they programmed Moho to mess with electrical devices near the pole. I think that would be kinda cool. But I am at a loss to figure out why the loss of power, followed by a surge, kept happening. I have only ever experienced it on Moho.

I do not know whether it was my rover that was at fault somehow, or whether it was environmental, or something else. Any thoughts?

[Kasuha]

Yes, rover physics is buggy near poles, especially when combined with "crumpled terrain". But that has nothing to do with navball functionality, that is not affected. I visited Moho South pole with my rover (Moho's south pole is flat and nice place to drive around) and I was riding right through the pole and everywhere around and the navball was always pointing in the right direction.

[Sirrobert]

My design works on a 60 degree pitch. Does yours? I'll help you with that answer - No way. Don't tell me my design doesn't work. I have a 357Km trip that says it does.

I came here to make a few suggestions, not to debate a design, or have a pissing contest.

Please focus on the merit of my suggestions, not who's right or wrong.

You also have a complaint about how the navball is wrong that says that there is something wrong with the design.

Either put a probe core in the right orientation and control from there, or use the capula in the right orientation.

Your 'suggestion' is just trying to fix something that is not broken. It's only a problem if you put the command pod in the wrong orientation. AKA, design it wrong

[sal_vager]

This thread has devolved into unconstructive bickering, closing this one.