How important is a resource system to you?

[esinohio]

Might have been said elsewhere... but personally the reason I worked so hard to master all the skills this game demands was to do some sort of resource collection. The idea of it being a hard thing to master was appealing to me. Setting up the logistics of multiple Kethane rigs roaming my system was extremely fun for me. Now I understand they said it wasn't tabled for ever but the impression I got was the future of any resource collection would be tailored into some much easier process. Not sure how that will break down but I think I can throw my hat into the ring with those people here who feel somewhat disappointed. I'm sure modders will step in here as they always do but making your game unsupported by the developers isn't a solution in my opinion so this is breaking down to be a huge disappointment for me. Multiplayer over resources? Resources were my end game here and the thought of some watered down system being implemented really takes the proverbial wind out of my sails.

edit** "...forget a piece of equipment" You mean like forgetting an antenna to transmit science data in career mode? Just saying your example doesn't float.

Edited December 16, 2013 by esinohio

[TMS]

My point is, that old plan we had for resources is most certainly not the right solution. It doesn't fit organically with the rest of the game, it requires you to remember to attach a bunch of single-purpose parts to a vessel (forgetting any of which would render a mission a complete failure), and really, that's just not how we want the game to play out.

Gonna take a hit on that one, man.

Most flights are reverted for that very reason.

[czokletmuss]

snip

You should post it on your blog so that anyone can read it, HarvesteR.

[GROOV3ST3R]

I genuinely don't care about resource systems- we can get Kethane and expand on that. I personally think that the ability to play with your friends and collaborate on missions will be more fun than a sit-and-wait-while-we-mine-generic-strings-of-numbers kind of adventure.

There's no need to panic anyhow - I'm sure that some form of resource systems or maybe an altogether different, more fun and useful activity will find it's way into the game later on. Road to development is bumpy and long and it will take some time before KSP is released - anything could happen between now and that point in time when the game is complete ^^

[pigletx2]

I thin the idea of a proper recource system would be awesome, but I can live without it. It seems most of the fourms thinks this, too.

I genuinely don't care about resource systems- we can get Kethane and expand on that. I personally think that the ability to play with your friends and collaborate on missions will be more fun than a sit-and-wait-while-we-mine-generic-strings-of-numbers kind of adventure.

There's no need to panic anyhow - I'm sure that some form of resource systems or maybe an altogether different, more fun and useful activity will find it's way into the game later on. Road to development is bumpy and long and it will take some time before KSP is released - anything could happen between now and that point in time when the game is complete ^^

This. Exactly. This. +1

[The Jedi Master]

-snip-

OK, now I have a new post to link to in my sig...

[tntristan12]

megasnip

I pretty much agree with most of HarvesteR's post, except for his statement that requiring a bunch of single-purpose parts means that a feature is inorganic or bad. The science modules you need to attach are single purpose parts, but that doesn't make that feature inorganic or bad. The RAPIER engine you're adding is almost exclusively useful for SSTO spacecraft, but I'm greatly looking forward to it. Not every feature needs to be one size fits all for it to make sense, fit into the overall scheme of the gameplay, or enhance the enjoyment of the game as a whole.

And who says resource gathering needs to be an exclusively end-game activity? Perhaps resource mining could help advance the tech tree in a similar way that science points do, or maybe you bring back resources from other planets, increasing your reputation to a level necessary to get to the next tier of the tech tree. Why is it that science points have to be the only mechanism through which career mode advances?

Finally, I don't see how requiring the integration of a part into your rocket design in order to exploit a feature is a bad thing. The Mars rover designers obviously needed to remember to attach cameras to it in order for them to take pictures - especially since they planned to take pictures from the very start of the mission. Obviously if you're going to another planet with the intent of mining resources, you're going to need to figure out how to integrate mining equipment into your design. That seems a fairly reasonable expectation.

My point: You shouldn't have to eliminate the need for advanced problem solving on the part of the end user for the sake of making the game more accessible to everyone. Especially if a feature is optional. Just look at docking. You can make a single rocket design that accomplishes almost anything you want to, but docking is more realistic, more exciting, and gives you more practice than just doing that. On the other hand, maybe you want to challenge yourself to accomplish a mission on one rocket only, and that's okay too!

Edited December 16, 2013 by tntristan12

[DominusNovus]

Gonna take a hit on that one, man.

Most flights are reverted for that very reason.

I have to agree very strongly on that one. In my short time with the game, I've lost track of all the times I've forgotten something essential to a mission and had to start over.

Besides, having a resource system won't render a mission to the Mun that doesn't include a resource module a failure. Just missions that are launched to harvest that resource. For example, you still might go there just to go there and run experiments in one mission, with a bunch of science modules. Then, you might launch another mission with resource extraction modules. Would that second mission be a failure because it doesn't include a science module to run experiments? I'd personally love the idea of specialized missions, where you've got concrete goals for each one.

Plus, so much space news buzz is about the commercialization of space, asteroid mining, thats whats driving the headlines in the real world.

[Themohawkninja]

My point is, that old plan we had for resources is most certainly not the right solution. It doesn't fit organically with the rest of the game, it requires you to remember to attach a bunch of single-purpose parts to a vessel (forgetting any of which would render a mission a complete failure), and really, that's just not how we want the game to play out.

Just a light rebuttal to this.

When you implemented electrical charge, solar panels, batteries, and RTGs were, and still are those single-purpose parts that in the event of forgetting them, would most certainly render the mission a failure if the mission was to be any longer than a orbit around Kerbin. Other single-purpose parts include all the science and communications equipment as well.

If anything, a resource mining system would add more use to those electrical components and science parts, even if it did mean adding other single purpose parts.

[Unabled]

Tntristan-

You are right about most, but look at it this way... You can already collect samples with science, so who is to say they couldn't expand the type and quantity to fulfill the same type of element resource mining would? Having resource mining help science would be kind of redundant in that regard.

Resource mining almost has to be an "end game" type of activity just because of the sheer logistics of multiple launches involved just to get the mining setup in the first place. As the original resources chart showed us, there were many single-purpose modules for the different of materials that would have needed to be deployed, then refineries, and all that just basically boiled down to making fuel.

After all that it would almost be easier to just launch a giant fuel tank. Single purpose science experiments at least get to be used in multiple places and gain you science, the mining modules were for specific resources only.

Don't forget the contract system along with science, both of which will allow you to earn reputation; both could be expanded to include nearly anything that resource mining might have done but not as bloated.

I'm sure another solution along those lines will come up after we see how the rest of career mode works, it just needs to find a spot to fit in.

Brainstorming ideas for it is about the best thing we can do.

[Galileo Kerbonaut]

snip snip snip

Thanks for a more elaborate breakdown as to why the resources in its current form have been canned. Although I can understand where you're coming from, I disagree with your point that mining isn't fun because you can forget to equip the essential gear. We all have been in the situation where we forgot batteries or solar panels and that's basically the same thing. The whole point of a space-program is to plan ahead, if you ask me. It would even be better if we were able to attach the forgotten parts on site.

Anyhow, I'm very happy that you've come forward on this subject and wish to thank you for that. I'm curious what Squad comes up with to make a more consolidating end-game. You guys are making an amazing game, with or without resources.

Cheers!

[HarvesteR]

As the original resources chart showed us, there were many single-purpose modules for the different of materials that would have needed to be deployed, then refineries, and all that just basically boiled down to making fuel.

After all that it would almost be easier to just launch a giant fuel tank. Single purpose science experiments at least get to be used in multiple places and gain you science, the mining modules were for specific resources only.

Don't forget the contract system along with science, both of which will allow you to earn reputation; both could be expanded to include nearly anything that resource mining might have done but not as bloated.

I'm sure another solution along those lines will come up after we see how the rest of career mode works, it just needs to find a spot to fit in.

Brainstorming ideas for it is about the best thing we can do.

I think you've explained it better than I did.

Cheers

[tntristan12]

Tntristan-

You are right about most, but look at it this way... You can already collect samples with science, so who is to say they couldn't expand the type and quantity to fulfill the same type of element resource mining would? Having resource mining help science would be kind of redundant in that regard.

When has a little redundancy ever been a bad thing? A kerbal drawing a small sample to test its composition versus a machine drilling up whole barrel-fulls of the stuff in order to separate it into different elements may involve the same sort of action but are useful for very different reasons. The small sample might tell you about the planet's history, but mining it in bulk and coming up with practical applications allows the Kerbals to live off the land without needing to waste more resources shipping the things they need across space.

Resource mining almost has to be an "end game" type of activity just because of the sheer logistics of multiple launches involved just to get the mining setup in the first place. As the original resources chart showed us, there were many single-purpose modules for the different of materials that would have needed to be deployed, then refineries, and all that just basically boiled down to making fuel.

I'm not saying the initial resource chart was perfect, but for the sake of argument let's say that's how they did it. Some equipment might be smaller and more easily researched that allows you to draw up the raw material, which can then be shipped home and separated in a lab for reputation points or whatnot. This helps you research more useful mining equipment, processors, etc that allow you to separate and utilize on site. As you continue to do this, you're gaining reputation points and unlocking new technologies until you finally get to the end-game stuff. You don't need to hold mining hostage until the very end. Early mining equipment might be small enough that you don't need many launches, and can otherwise keep the difficulty level down. Same argument can be made for science equipment: You can already attach the goo canister to the side of a rocket without thinking about it too much, but lifting the lab module will be a whole different ball game. Both are used for science, but there is still a progressing level of difficulty!

After all that it would almost be easier to just launch a giant fuel tank. Single purpose science experiments at least get to be used in multiple places and gain you science, the mining modules were for specific resources only.

Again, I'm not saying the initial resource chart was perfect. There has to be a suitable middle ground where you can use some equipment for multiple purposes while still having enough variety that later-game technologies provide their own benefits of use, and thus their own incentive to research.

Don't forget the contract system along with science, both of which will allow you to earn reputation; both could be expanded to include nearly anything that resource mining might have done but not as bloated.

I'm sure another solution along those lines will come up after we see how the rest of career mode works, it just needs to find a spot to fit in.

Brainstorming ideas for it is about the best thing we can do.

Yeah, contracts would also be a good way of gaining reputation. Who says we can't have contracts that revolve around resource gathering? Perhaps there are companies back on Kerbin that would like truckloads of Mun-dust for their space themed amusement park!

[Themohawkninja]

Tntristan-

You are right about most, but look at it this way... You can already collect samples with science, so who is to say they couldn't expand the type and quantity to fulfill the same type of element resource mining would? Having resource mining help science would be kind of redundant in that regard.

Resource mining almost has to be an "end game" type of activity just because of the sheer logistics of multiple launches involved just to get the mining setup in the first place. As the original resources chart showed us, there were many single-purpose modules for the different of materials that would have needed to be deployed, then refineries, and all that just basically boiled down to making fuel.

After all that it would almost be easier to just launch a giant fuel tank. Single purpose science experiments at least get to be used in multiple places and gain you science, the mining modules were for specific resources only.

Don't forget the contract system along with science, both of which will allow you to earn reputation; both could be expanded to include nearly anything that resource mining might have done but not as bloated.

I'm sure another solution along those lines will come up after we see how the rest of career mode works, it just needs to find a spot to fit in.

Brainstorming ideas for it is about the best thing we can do.

Where you mine things, and where science can be done aren't all that different.

Both involve single-purpose parts that can be used in multiple areas to have a greater effect.

[DominusNovus]

Don't forget the contract system along with science, both of which will allow you to earn reputation; both could be expanded to include nearly anything that resource mining might have done but not as bloated.

I have to disagree right there. The point of mining out in space is not, at least initially, for a payoff, but to reduce the cost of the launches themselves. Launch a rocket into orbit (or to a low gravity object, like Mun or Minmus) that can produce fuel, and then every other rocket that can reach the first can be made so much lighter. The point is not so much to be for the benefit of one individual mission, but all future missions. How can that be replicated with science or reputation points?

Edited December 16, 2013 by DominusNovus

[tntristan12]

I have to disagree right there. The point of mining out in space is not, at least initially, for a payoff, but to reduce the cost of the launches themselves. Launch a rocket into orbit (or to a low gravity object, like Mun or Minmus) that can produce fuel, and then every other rocket that can reach the first can be made so much lighter. How can that be replicated with science or reputation points?

Yes, this and many others are some of the cool gameplay features that would be made possible by the addition of resources. It's like I've said elsewhere. There's so much more to resources than the resources themselves. They enable a level of depth and richness to the gameplay that you won't get if your entire mission is "go there, step outside, report your observations, gather surface samples, and come back."

[nholzric]

I've already lost a lot of interest in KSP, due to nothing to do. Each update comes out I play, do the same thing I always do (set up stations, bases, and try the new feature).

What I need is something to do once I get to planets, a reason to go there.

Resources will be a big part of that reason.

Another thing that I think is necessary is something random - ie random planets with random discoveries to be made. This gives you a reason to explore. It would be a shame if Squad finally finished development, patted themselves on the back and found that all players stopped playing after 2 weeks of playing with the last feature added.

Multiplayer is going to do virtually nothing for me. I might be play a little with my son, but I'd rather not be playing with a stranger - after all I am the director of my space program. I honestly feel that multiplayer is being added because a vocal minority demanded it. The real challenge will be to make multiplayer add something that single player doesn't have. If Squad succeeds, then I may well enjoy it, but from my current perspective, I think it will be a bit of a waste of their effort.

As of now, I will be turning to the dark side, and finally installing mods. I've been holding out for resources, but it looks like it is at least 1 year away now.

I don't know anything about how "multiplayer" will work (have they talked about what multiplayer will do?) but adding other players sounds like a great source of "random" events. Don't you think that interacting with other players cooperatively or competitively sounds like a great way to make otherwise "routine" missions new again?

I'm with you on not being interested in playing with strangers, I would hope to be able to play with friends privately rather than wade through a public server. Also, Minecraft has yet to recover performance wise when they separated the client from the server; I hope KSP does not suffer the same fate.

[tntristan12]

I don't know anything about how "multiplayer" will work (have they talked about what multiplayer will do?) but adding other players sounds like a great source of "random" events. Don't you think that interacting with other players cooperatively or competitively sounds like a great way to make otherwise "routine" missions new again?

No. I hate other people. When I play games it's so I can continue being an antisocial hermit living in my mom's basement (okay, that last part isn't true). My point is that a game's enjoyment shouldn't be predicated on the fact that other people liven it up. It should be able to stand on its own merits in single player, and then you add multiplayer.

[Aladran]

I might loose interest if it's not implanted at some point.

But I'm playing this game since 0.8.5 and I've seen so much improvement overtime that if they give us thing as awesome as ressource, my patience might be infinite (I'll still have the good ol'Kethane mod)

[tntristan12]

Yes. Kethane is an outstanding mod, but it's still a mod and Majiir has absolutely no incentive other than his own self-gratification to continue working on it. If he decided to quit on it for any reason, and then Squad released an update that broke Kethane... Well, there goes resource mining! That's why I don't think mods should act as substitutes for integral gameplay features.

[Horn Brain]

I will still play the game, but it just lost a lot of value for me. I was really excited about building bases and stations in every planetary system to support novel mission architectures. Now I've pretty much done everything in the game that we'll be able to do. I definitely play it less now, usually only when I come up with some crazy idea for a design, like a Falcon 9 reusable replica or some other design challenge. There is no reason to go to planets more than once unless they offer design challenges, of which resources would have been able to introduce a whole new range. I would love to have to design a vehicle to get blutonium from Eve's oceans to orbit, or shuttle fuel to my Duna station from the surface.

[Aladran]

On an other hand, don't take statement too seriously.

Squad once said that multiplayers wont be implanted to the game, now it's a planned feature before release.

The resource system might take a good chunk of development time. The base is there:

I'm sure that once the Career mod is viable, the resource system will get the love it deserves.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Aladran
typos

[tntristan12]

Yeah I've always felt that resources would make more sense after an economics system is introduced.

[Skyrunner27]

All we have seen from Squad is that flowchart and a couple of parts, and IIRC we have not seen any of the resources in action. Yet we are continuing to make assumptions of how fun the system is. The flowchart is just a chart,an idea, just like multiplayer right now. So can we wait to see how multiplayer will flesh out before jumping to conclusions.

[nholzric]

a game's enjoyment shouldn't be predicated on the fact that other people liven it up. It should be able to stand on its own merits in single player, and then you add multiplayer.

It sounds to me like a primary reason we all want a resource system is to extend the playability of KSP past its current end-game lull. I think it's reasonable to assume that while a resource system could be great, even with one there will still be an end-game lull - it'll just be a little further out. There are several ways to push the lull further out: new content (like planets), dynamic content (like procedurally generated environment), new dynamics (like resources or an economy), and multiplayer. The fellow I was responding to said he would like random events but not multiplayer and it occurred to me those two could go together really well.

I'm with you though about multiplayer, very skeptical. I am much more excited about new content or dynamics than about multiplayer. I am worried it will break performance and I don't see how it can be fun. (which doesn't mean it won't be fun, I just mean I just can't see it) But KSP can already stand on it's own merits, that's not a reason to skip multiplayer. And many games are predicated on players interacting, your and my problem is KSP does so well as a single player we don't want to risk breaking that.