Just what is the community to SQUAD?

[stargazer1235]

I agree with the above post. Squad has made a wonderful game. But it goes beyond, KSP has revived a genre from the brink of extinction. Before KSP, the space genre was basically dead, there were things, like obiter but they never really captured the vast majority of people who would rather be playing an FPS game then a game were you need to learn all these panels and stuff. When KSP came out, it revolutionised everything, because Squad has focused on the humour plus the fun factor of the game and not sorely on the realism. This game appeals to a wider audience.

And where has this got them, winner of many indie awards, a spotlight on NBC, a booth at PAX and the revelation that many at the JPL at playing this game in their down time . I don't think Squad should listen to the community, communicate sure but not listen word for word to it as it would only end them up in a deep dark hole. When 0.22 game out, there are arguments about 'hard-core gamers' being left behind, and I just sat there thinking, why would complain, isn't this what we wanted. A similar thing is happening right now and will most likely happen after the update. You should not pound the Devs on the head but rather encourage them to keep going.

I have heard many horror stories where communities have abused Devs so much that the game they were working on is abandoned or just released in a half hearted state. It would be a shame if that happened here.

[Murph]

I have heard many horror stories where communities have abused Devs so much that the game they were working on is abandoned or just released in a half hearted state. It would be a shame if that happened here.

Hear, hear! Keep it up, Squad, and please don't ever let a naysayer get to you! Keep pushing, don't stop, until KSP is perfect, and you can't think of a single worthwhile thing to add to it (hopefully that day won't come)!

[OtherDalfite]

Hear, hear! Keep it up, Squad, and please don't ever let a naysayer get to you!

This is honestly the most toxic thing you can say to a developer. This statement alone builds them up to ignore valuable criticism and to just follow through even if they are making a huge mistake as they are now. For some reason you think the developers are building KSP out of the kindness of their hearts and are giving it to us for free. Defending the developers from criticism is not only harmful to the game, but detrimental to the community as it arises arguments.

[THE META]

although I haven't been here as long as most of you (joined in 0.18.2), I've been around long enough to say that this is the most negativity I've ever seen on the forums, made even worse by the fact that we have only just stopped celebrating the game's third birthday and everyone here has seemed to devolve in to a fan base similar to that of the one that arose after halo 4 was released.

for one thing, unless I've missed something SQUAD has never said that they are ditching resources and I think the vast majority of you under estimate just how hard it may be to code. also, the game is still relatively early in development and the dev's are constantly updating the games unity engine, so what's possible with the game is always changing and with the new KMP mod, SQUAD's chimp head will almost certainly be drawn towards multiplayer.

I think we need a bit more perspective here. KSP has never been about resources, its been about jeb, explosions, the steep learning curve, the satisfaction when you progress up that learning curve when you finally orbit or land on the moon. Its about exploration, management and the inexplicable beauty of the cosmos. If anything, I believe that resources are almost definitely not needed and will most likely break the game, making it too easy for missions, even making eve a piece of cake. coming from only a couple of days ago when we were celebrating all things Kerbal, I think a few new people may have joined this community who we just don't want and are going to turn the other community members against their beloved game.

look at the Halo community for example. I was part of that community. prior to the release of Halo 4, news was steadily streaming in on the game development and the features, and the community was happy with 343I and how they were implementing things, even providing advice and saying what should be done to help balance the game. however, the very week the game came out, even though it was beautifully balanced with all the features seeming to fit snugly in the games formula, the forums were flooded with new members who seemed to hate every bit of the game, even things that had been in since Halo:CE, saying that the game was 'unrecognisable' and 'Call of Halo'. Please kerbal community, don't seemingly randomly start to hate this game and the features that are being implemented, the game is doing great and I don't want it spoiled.

This is honestly the most toxic thing you can say to a developer. This statement alone builds them up to ignore valuable criticism and to just follow through even if they are making a huge mistake as they are now. For some reason you think the developers are building KSP out of the kindness of their hearts and are giving it to us for free. Defending the developers from criticism is not only harmful to the game, but detrimental to the community as it arises arguments.

he isn't defending the developers from criticism, he's defending the developers from people who are simply spouting hate towards the game over a small feature that isn't and will never be a core part of the game, just a side feature, unlike career mode.

(can a Mod please merge this post with my one above please, i'm not really sure how to do it. thanks)

Edited December 15, 2013 by vexx32
Posts merged.

[OtherDalfite]

he isn't defending the developers from criticism, he's defending the developers from people who are simply spouting hate towards the game over a small feature that isn't and will never be a core part of the game, just a side feature, unlike career mode.

(can a Mod please merge this post with my one above please, i'm not really sure how to do it. thanks)

How is something as mind bogglingly big as multiplayer not a core feature of the game? If you mean resources, you are still completely wrong in the fact that resources will directly influence changes in career mode and that you will need to sell/buy things that increase revenue for your space program. To say something like that is completely wrong.

EDIT: Meta, things may seem to be getting really bad now, because you joined at the start of it all happening. 0.19 was the update in which the developers officially stopped delivering content.

Edited December 15, 2013 by OtherDalfite
Touching up.

[NovaSilisko]

he isn't defending the developers from criticism, he's defending the developers from people who are simply spouting hate towards the game over a small feature that isn't and will never be a core part of the game, just a side feature, unlike career mode.

I would say that still qualifies as criticism. A good chunk of the community is unhappy with the decision to eliminate resources, and, therefore, the decision (and, by extension, the group that made the decision) is being criticised. IMO, even "simply spouting hate" can be useful criticism if you look at what the hate is being spouted over.

I do find it amusing though how what was once THE most anticipated feature in the game is now having its death justified and defended by some of the same community that anticipated it so. Then again, it's been months and several updates since the last official report on resources, I suppose we've gone through a few cycles of members by now, so I guess it's not the really same community anymore.

[chuangatronic]

I'm just going to say that this kind of behavior on the forums is what got Fez 2 cancelled and Phil Fish out of the industry. Think about that for a bit before you continue your holy crusade for resources.

[Comrade Jenkens]

I hope squad have managed to get enough sleep over the weekend before waking up to this!

I don't believe that resources are indefinitely cancelled, I just think that Squad thinks other things are more important at the moment.

I want resources but I'm happy to wait as plenty of other cool features will be added in the meantime and I'll enjoy them as they come. I reckon Squad may also be doing a bit of rethinking after seeing all this.

[Commander Zoom]

IMO, this all comes down to "but you PROMISED we'd have resources by now!" (they did no such thing) and "I want to feel like I have control over what happens to this game" (uh... no).

[czokletmuss]

Boom. This post right here. I got in from Mexico last night. Been sick as a dog since the end of the trip and I come back to read what's going on here. Yikes. It's not fun. Not fun for anyone. Listen, I plan on on grabbing some people and asking *them* for certain things that *you* would like to have clarified. Unfortunately, that will have to come on Monday when everyone will be back at 100%. The best I can do for you is to try to clear up any confusion that may exist during the course of the week. All I ask is that at least for a while, please just chill out a bit. Dissenting opinions are fine, but name calling, ill wishes and threats to any member of this board will not be tolerated.

Now this is a great idea

[jfx]

After the release of 0.19 (if not sooner) it became clear that SQUAD developed a serious hernia while trying to stem KSP with the intended scope and the underlying base technology known as Unity "casual games made easy" 3d.

I have been around since 0.11 and honestly I don't care anymore. Just looking at how long the IVA placeholders have survived in game (IVAs were added 15 months ago) shows the state of the project(-management). I easily got my moneys worth out of KSP, which is great. But I feel there was a ton of potential squandered due to a lacking technical base and no development experience at SQUADs side. I know most of you enjoy year three of KSP alpha and that's nice. A look to r/ksp shows me that the majority of people even seem to think of KSP as beautiful so I can see my expectations are somewhat different from the norm (I'd rather call minecraft or starbound with their consistent pixelated art style beautifull than the z fighting LOD-flickering empty planet surfaces of KSP).

What really astonishes me though is the KSP community. There were two people in charge of organizing Kerbalcon, yet no one deemed it necessary to check the stream setup. After 30 minutes of video cut outs and subsequent microphone on reverbating glass table I switched off (Kerbalcon '12 was already seriously plagued with audio problems). The setup was not worthy even of a small time streamer on twitch yet again the KSP community in general seemed impressed of this level of community interaction.

tl:dr:

Meh.

[Alguien]

I'm just going to say that this kind of behavior on the forums is what got Fez 2 cancelled and Phil Fish out of the industry. Think about that for a bit before you continue your holy crusade for resources.

yeah, lets ignore than he pretty much canceled it because he throw a tantrum for being called a hipster while he insulted people left and right and had a holy than you attitude

yes, lets think about that for a bit and how much we want people who cant even take a small ounce of criticism in the industry

[sporkafife]

I suppose we've gone through a few cycles of members by now, so I guess it's not the really same community anymore.

I unfortunately agree with the sentiment here. The whole KSP community just feels so different as it did a year ago at the last KerbalKon. I can't be the only one that feels this way right? It may just be me being hipster-y, bit at that time, a single mention of multiplayer would bring everyone down on your head saying multiplayer was never a part of Squad's vision.

I guess Squad really is at a critical point in their development now and have a choice to make. Do they follow their original visions, the visions that the original backers invested in, like resources that will give us a reason to visit planets (above and beyond the pretty poorly implemented grindy science system) and just generally increase the scope of the game on a massive level, or listen to the newer arrivals that want features like multiplayer, so that they can drive a rover next to their friend (which sounds fun for all of about the first 10 seconds)

[FenrirWolf]

After the release of 0.19 (if not sooner) it became clear that SQUAD developed a serious hernia while trying to stem KSP with the intended scope and the underlying base technology known as Unity "casual games made easy" 3d.

I have to admit this is the biggest concern I have for the future of the game. I love where it is currently and have to say I do like where it is going as well. But a part of me does wonder if Unity will become more and more of a burden as the game progresses and tries to flex its wings to loftier heights. Some might argue that it already has.

I'm not actually in charge of the game though, and I figure the devs are definitely more aware of the positives and negatives of Unity than I am since they're kinda the ones making the darned thing work XD. I just think it will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

[pigletx2]

Just a quick note: you cant add multiplayer after a certain point. IF it doesn't happen NOW, it cant happen until KSP's sequel, which may never come. At this moment, the code is still simple enough (not by much) to add multiplayer capabilities. That's why Minecraft had added multiplayer in the 2nd stage of development, which is where SQUAD IS NOW (Squad just started the devopment of carrer mode). Don't worry. Resources will come later, most likely during the end of career mode completion. IF you want it now, I would suggest (if you want to) learning how to make resource mods using Kethane as an api.

TL;DR: Sometimes, certain features must come now, and others, which are better, must come later. Multiplayer can be hard to add late in development.

Edited December 15, 2013 by pigletx2

[dr_jt]

I've played computer games since before many of you were born. I have never seen a development group pay as much attention to its user base as Squad does with KSP. I've beta tested for major game companies and had less interaction with them than I get with KSP developers. Heck, we got Kerbalcon and I don't ever recall seeing something similar with any other game company. I have another paid space game called Artemis Bridge Simulator which is in constant development like KSP. Check out their community. It pretty much nothing with very little involvement by the development team. Heck they came other with a new version that broke the ability to use an iPad and are still working on it months later. People, like me can no longer use iPads for stations which pretty much limits me to the older version with far less features. I also had to by the game again because of the version change from 1 to 2 so I'm out 40 bucks because I can't play the new game. You folks are whining about resources and multi-player but can at least play the newest versions. I paid 23 bucks for KSP and it was well worth it. I've gotten far more entertainment for the money than pretty much any other money spent on entertainment. Take a look at Orbiter simulator which has been around a lot longer than KSP. It doesn't have nearly the capabilities nor the number of mod developers. The community isn't nearly as active and the developers limit their access to that community which isn't even run by the developers. I use to play a lot of Orbiter and created quite a few mods for it but it wasn't nearly as fun as KSP.

There are things I don't like in KSP and things I think are a waste of the developer's time doing but all in all KSP is a really fun game for the money. Besides, my life does not revolve around a game and if Squad shut its doors today I could care less. I have far more important things to worry about in life and games and game features don't even make the list.

Just think of it this way. Squad could have been like 99.9% of all the other game companies out there and not given early access to the game. They could have just done their job and released it with the features they wanted and you would never had the opportunity to whine about your pet feature not being there or the developers not paying personal attention to you.

Edited December 15, 2013 by dr_jt

[Sirrobert]

The short of it is that by canning resources, by not being communicative with their current player base, they are breaking their end of the bargain. This style of purchase is much closer to a service than it is to a standard transaction. Imagine that they had started a kickstarter, with all their promises about resources and such in the advert blurb. People are buying their game based not on what's in it, but what they say will be in it, and the promise that their purchase now gets to help make that happen. Saying these things and not delivering them (EVEN FOR ALPHA CONSUMPTION) is at best dishonest and at worst fraudulent.

Seeing as they made no promisses that there will be recourses, this is simply not true

[Smidge204]

Do we as paid players have a right to be vocal with our disagreements about the game, and the direction it is going?

No. No we do not.

The fact that SQUAD extends the courtesy of providing us a means to give opinion and feedback above and beyond a simple bug submission form is really nice, and I'm happy to say is a trend among smaller development houses... but that does not give you a right to any audience with the game devs.

Recognize that any level of interaction with the actual developers is a gift granted on a continual basis to be revoked at any time, accept that your voice may not be heard and that the developers can and should develop the game however they see fit regardless of what the users want. If the game takes a direction that happens to coincide with what players want, so much the better.

=Smidge=

Edited December 15, 2013 by Smidge204
Botched quote tags

[vetrox]

So something that "was considered for implementaion" is now on the backburner makes squd a horrific dev team that doesnt listen to the community?

Personally i couldnt care less what squad do with the game. I've had my moneys worth.

Personally i would love to see better graphics.

Personally i have never been bothered about resources.

Personally i dont care bout multiplayer. It will be nice, yeah but its not something i can say m excited about.

Alot of personal feelings i have about the game. Just the same as everyone else. The problem is the same as any other aspect of life. Complaints are always vocalized and contentness is kept quiet. Most players wont come near the forums unless they are a little stuck. Most game forums are just full of whiney unhappy childeren (ksp is a slight exception to the rule because of the style of game) dota, halo, cod, battlefield. Their forums are an incomprehesible mess of complaining teenagers who arent happy unless the game is exactly how they want it.

[dr_jt]

Most game forums are just full of whiney unhappy childeren (ksp is a slight exception to the rule because of the style of game) dota, halo, cod, battlefield.

I think there are a lot more younglings here than you may realize. Just look at the some of the Kerbalcon threads and you see lots of people talking about school and exams. Look at the put a face thread and it's mostly kids. At 58 years of age I think I'm in the minority here with a lot being young enough to be my grand kids.

[Simon Ross]

Personally I think the Squad team strike a pretty good balance most of the time. Yes, first and foremost, we are customers, however the team keep in pretty close contact with us, take notice of trends that are taking place and generally respond pretty positively to mods and suggestions from the community.

Compare this to some of the bigger game developers who simply take a product and throw it over the wall to us !

[vetrox]

I think there are a lot more younglings here than you may realize. Just look at the some of the Kerbalcon threads and you see lots of people talking about school and exams. Look at the put a face thread and it's mostly kids. At 58 years of age I think I'm in the minority here with a lot being young enough to be my grand kids.

I'm not trying to deny the age of players on ksp but they will have a much different mentality to the people on other game forums. I also use the term "child" very loosley as you can only assume players are childeren sometimes looking at their attitude. But you still see it even here. The people who are not 100% happy with the game have an awfull lot to say and when something changes and isnt 100% what they wanted they soon let you know about it in a very mature way (/sarcasm) and wont accept anything other than their own opinion. But this is the internet and these people will always exist

Another thing to note. You can tell the maturity of the ksp player base because they dont start correcting your spelling and grammar or racism when they cant argue any more

[Awaras]

Anyone remember the docking controversy? Because all this awfully reminds me of it...

Edited December 15, 2013 by Awaras

[czokletmuss]

At 58 years of age I think I'm in the minority here with a lot being young enough to be my grand kids.

And this is the best thing in this game - that through themes like space exploration and science and of course fun with blowing up ridiculous vessles it can close the gap between generations and that it's atractive not only for kids but also for people who remember Apollo landings. Show me another game played by astronauts and people from JPL as well as students or kids from elementary school.

Community is important for the game. It would be a shame if Squad, after bringing all of us together, just let all of this go in vain because of some troubles with communication.

[djnattyd]

Seems to me that SQUAD can't win no matter what they do. People ask for resources and they're open with us, telling us that we'll get stock resources when they work properly and people complain that they don't have it now. People ask for more to do other than just Sandbox mode and they tell us that Career Mode is being actively worked on and people complain that they don't want Career Mode, they want Sandbox Multiplayer. They tell us that they're working on mutliplayer and people complain that they never asked for mutliplayer, they asked for resources and more contact from the devs. Realistically, the only option they have left is to not listen to the community and not tell us anything.

At this exact moment in time, we have resources with Kethane and EPL, we have multiplayer in KMP so we can wait for the official versions to be "done when they're done". What we need is a finished, bug-free game, not accusations of dishonesty on SQUADs part.

Seriously, if people think that SQUAD are being dishonest, non-transparent and not keeping to (self-imagined) promises, you should look at what Egosoft actually promised and then delivered with X-Rebirth.