Just what is the community to SQUAD?

[ArmchairGravy]

Holy cats are people riled up over this. I have faith in Squad as they have so far delivered a great gaming experience. If they feel like switching directions I'm sure they have good reasons for doing so. It's not like they are throwing darts at ideas. I think they are trying to make the most accessible and fun game they can for all players, and are letting the modding community provide the advanced-challenge content. The community comprises of a lot of different players at different skill levels who consider different things fun. For example, I have no interest in FAR or IonForge as these addons don't sound fun to me, but other people really enjoy that level of challenge. I think Squad has so far done a great job at servicing ALL of the community, and trust them to continue to do so. Would I have preferred resources before multiplayer? Sure. Will I have a hissy fit because it went the other way? Heck no.

[tntristan12]

I think they are trying to make the most accessible and fun game they can for all players, and are letting the modding community provide the advanced-challenge content.

I am really tired of this argument, and this is why!

That argument ignores that resources gathering would be amongst the heartiest of meat-and-potatoes content the game could provide and getting rid of it is essentially eliminating one of the most potentially interesting features. In light of this there is absolutely no reason for it to not be in the game. Other arguments that it is "too grindy" or "too repetitive" seem to miss the point that grindy and repetitive does not necessarily mean bad (just look at Minecraft, which essentially boils down to "lift block, place block"). And saying that it would make the game inaccessible, or that it would be too complicated for the new player to grasp is not giving enough credit to the target audience of a game that is essentially about rocket science; we all know there is a base level of ingenuity and wit required to play this game to begin with.

At any rate, resource gathering would and should be completely optional to begin with, and would really only have relevance after the tech tree has been completely unlocked (which is currently the weakest thing about career mode). I see resources as an excellent way for players to acquire funds, gain reputation, and create off-planet bases for jumping off to other areas of the solar system. Resource mining could even be a stepping-stone to building and fueling end-game technologies that would let players fly to other star systems and explore whole new sets of worlds (all things that would be available from the get-go in sandbox mode, but need to be earned in career mode).

This feature has every reason to be a comprehensive part of the main game, and while I admit that Kethane is an exceptional mod (Majiir has done a fantastic job there), that should serve only to illustrate how resource mining can be done in a way that is accessible and entertaining, and not an excuse to say "well somebody already did it so let's add this other feature (multiplayer) that has no reason to be in the game."

Edited December 16, 2013 by tntristan12

[Rainbowtrout]

If you ask me, we DO have a say in KSP development. We make mods, and suggest ideas, the devs, if the ideas are good enough, implement them.

[ArmchairGravy]

I am really tired of this argument, and this is why!

That argument ignores that resources gathering would be amongst the heartiest of meat-and-potatoes content the game could provide and getting rid of it is essentially eliminating one of the most potentially interesting features. In light of this there is absolutely no reason for it to not be in the game. Other arguments that it is "too grindy" or "too repetitive" seem to miss the point that grindy and repetitive does not necessarily mean bad (just look at Minecraft, which essentially boils down to "lift block, place block"). And saying that it would make the game inaccessible, or that it would be too complicated for the new player to grasp is not giving enough credit to the target audience of a game that is essentially about rocket science; we all know there is a base level of ingenuity and wit required to play this game to begin with.

At any rate, resource gathering would and should be completely optional to begin with, and would really only have relevance after the tech tree has been completely unlocked (which is currently the weakest thing about career mode). I see resources as an excellent way for players to acquire funds, gain reputation, and create off-planet bases for jumping off to other areas of the solar system. Resource mining could even be a stepping-stone to building and fueling end-game technologies that would let players fly to other star systems and explore whole new sets of worlds (all things that would be available from the get-go in sandbox mode, but need to be earned in career mode).

This feature has every reason to be a comprehensive part of the main game, and while I admit that Kethane is an exceptional mod (Majiir has done a fantastic job there), that should serve only to illustrate how resource mining can be done in a way that is accessible and entertaining, and not an excuse to say "well somebody already did it so let's add this other feature (multiplayer) that has no reason to be in the game."

I have yet to see anyone at Squad say they will not be implementing resources. What I have seen them say is they need to go back to the drawing board, and in the meantime they can get multiplayer going. You may feel that MP has no reason, but that's, like, your opinion, man. I agree with it. The devs disagree. I trust the devs to do the best they can with the resources they have, and will keep mining Kethane until they get a resourcing scheme they feel is right for the game. Heck, I may even check out multiplayer in the meantime as it could be fun. All I'm suggesting is that we step away from our perceived gored ox, and get back to having fun with our game.

[boxman]

I have yet to see anyone at Squad say they will not be implementing resources. What I have seen them say is they need to go back to the drawing board, and in the meantime they can get multiplayer going. You may feel that MP has no reason, but that's, like, your opinion, man. I agree with it. The devs disagree. I trust the devs to do the best they can with the resources they have, and will keep mining Kethane until they get a resourcing scheme they feel is right for the game. Heck, I may even check out multiplayer in the meantime as it could be fun. All I'm suggesting is that we step away from our perceived gored ox, and get back to having fun with our game.

Multiplayer is supposed to be the very last thing they add after everything else has been finished, so there wont be anything else added after that.

What I dont get is how they have some sort of deadline at all. The way it was written suggests that the game will more or less be finished sometime in 2014... I dont get why they dont just drop any such "deadlines" fully and just make the game as good as possible before they decide it is done and start working on the multiplayer features.

[ArmchairGravy]

"Multiplayer is supposed to be the very last thing they add after everything else has been finished, so there wont be anything else added after that."

Erm, I disagree. If you have a foundation built with multiplayer and then implement features, coding is much easier than trying to implement multiplayer after features. I think this is why they prioritized it.

[tntristan12]

Honestly I think they should just leave off multiplayer for a completely different game. It sounds entertaining on the surface but space is so big that coordinating anything with another player would just be ridiculous. They've got so many potentially more interesting things they could fill their two existing game modes with to make them more interesting and unique without adding a third entirely different game mode. :\

[ElJugador]

Well of course it's not going to happen, the point is they could, if they wanted, do exactly that and be breaking no laws or committing no crime. People should remember that.

Also, shooting yourself in the foot used to happen quite a lot. People did it on purpose to get out of a situation they didn't like or feel they should stay in... Squad could come to work this morning and see all this and maybe feel that a bit of foot pain can be lived with. Just sayin'.

Edit: Sorry KasperVld, some people have very annoying attitudes, I was simply trying to provide a wake up call.

Yes. But their new project would run out of funds and steam very quickly once the truth came out. Just look for the indie game whose developers don't have real names listed... (I believe they would be found out within weeks, if not days.)

This is not just 'bit of foot pain', by the way. This is 'near-complete loss of user, fan, (and possibly shareholder) confidence' we're talking about. Actively deceiving the first two, if they did everything that you said. They would never be able to make a game again. And they might also lose a teensy bit of credibility in the marketing industry (which is also another thing they did/do)

Edited December 16, 2013 by ElJugador

[Hyomoto]

-snip-

All you've shown is that you can read what I wrote without any context. Keep in mind, you need to read the WHOLE thing, goldfish, and take it as an entire argument. Each line does not stand on its own; each sentence is predicated on the fact that you read the one previous. I took time to organize my thoughts and, fairly reasonably, I stated what I think the difference between resources and science is. I provided examples, supporting opinions and a conclusion. Now, my position is may be right or wrong, but you have no position. Your entire post is you saying, "Nuh uh!" to what I wrote. You are far from the only vainglorious plebe unwilling to contribute an opinion, but simply attacking Squad and the people who either agree with them, or disagree with you is not an opinion.

Here's a 1-up, if you feel like actually responding this time.

This is not just 'bit of foot pain', by the way. This is 'near-complete loss of user, fan, (and possibly shareholder) confidence' we're talking about. Actively deceiving the first two, if they did everything that you said. They would never be able to make a game again. And they might also lose a teensy bit of credibility in the marketing industry (which is also another thing they did/do)

Is it? I think there are more people who have just as much confidence as they did last week in Squad's abilities. What I think is a lot of people have put them up on a pedestal, and the feelings of betrayal come from that. Besides, you couldn't be further from right. There are entire libraries of games that you don't know who made them beyond the publisher name and MAYBE the studio. Besides, they have hands, computers, talent. I'm sure they could make another game and if it was cool you'd play it. EA is a horrible company that treats its workers like -excrement-, pushes out generic AAA bull and was voted the worst company in America twice ... and yet they still publish games.

Edited December 16, 2013 by KasperVld

[Ravyne]

They've already got your money, they don't need to do anything else. They could turn it into a fantasy shoot-em-up if they wanted to at this point, and wouldn't have to answer to anything. Cash already changed hands, the deal is over, you get what they put out. Don't like it? Man, that really sucks. Oh well.

I'm not saying this because I agree with Squad, but this is just how it is. A little dose of realism. Screaming and hollering isn't going to do anything; they've made it clear they either can't or won't listen or just don't care. This isn't a subscription game where people can stop paying; they've made their cash off of you and now they couldn't care less what you think.

[Santoron]

Squad has expanded the scope of this game several times already to include features that we in the community desired that were outside of the original scope of the game. Resources were something they tried as well, and decided it wasn't working. I understand (and share) the disappointment, but to try and downplay Squad's regard for and commitment to the community is asinine. If Squad is no longer allowed to make design decisions on their game without a cacophony of bitter accusations then they may as well walk away from the project now, because they'll never never finish a game when a successful launch requires they implement every single design request to every single player's satisfaction.

Also, I fail to understand those dismissing mods as a solution to this. We've seen resource mods in action, and they've been impressive! We know those efforts thus far have been curtailed somewhat because of a belief their work would be rendered moot by a stock feature down the road, so we can assume those efforts may expand in the near future. And we have at least a couple very impressive sounding new efforts underway already since the announcement was made! Within the next few months, we are likely to have a variety of resource options available to suit different play styles and desired complexities. Given the high profile and longstanding nature of the discussion around resources, I hardly think it's likely that community driven support for these mods is likely to dry up any faster than support for the game in general. So where's the problem? Seems to me that those of us that are passionate about resources are about to be spoiled rotten by the options available to us, and Squad gets to focus on the areas of the game they are most passionate about, or that absolutely require dev attention.

[tntristan12]

All you've shown is that you can read what I wrote without any context. Keep in mind, you need to read the WHOLE thing, goldfish, and take it as an entire argument. Each line does not stand on its own; each sentence is predicated on the fact that you read the one previous. I took time to organize my thoughts and, fairly reasonably, I stated what I think the difference between resources and science is. I provided examples, supporting opinions and a conclusion. Now, my position is may be right or wrong, but you have no position. Your entire post is you saying, "Nuh uh!" to what I wrote. You are far from the only vainglorious plebe unwilling to contribute an opinion, but simply attacking Squad and the people who either agree with them, or disagree with you is not an opinion.

Those are some big, fancy words you're using there Hyomoto. I wonder if you even understand half of them, or if you even believe half the crap streaming from your fingers. First off, I am no plebe around here - I have been a contributing member of this community since the earliest releases and I've seen the beats and trends that go on whenever the dev team makes a sudden and weighty decision. And if I'm vainglorious it's because I've earned that right, but I hardly think of my achievements as any better than anybody else's so that's not the word I would use. I'm not sure where you get off on vilifying me or saying that I'm attacking your character or that of Squad, since I have been honest and respectful in all of my comments, which is hardly something you can claim.

As for taking your words out of context, I have done no such thing. Everything you've quoted was in response to something you wrote, in order and without omission. You were questioning how resources gathering would be a useful and fun addition to the game and I explained how that could be. That is far from attacking anybody, you, Squad, or otherwise. As for me "having no position," well you can read any of my other posts on this matter - there have been enough of them - to see that I have repeatedly backed up my statements time and time again. Moreover I've done so respectfully, and have not needed to attack the character of others in order to satisfy with the veracity of my claims.

This is the last time I will respond to any blatant disparages to my character by you or anybody else. If you have something useful to say then say it but I'm not going to defend myself against [redacted] like you if all you've got to spew is bile. Good day.

...

Anyway, here's hoping that we get an official comment soon. I feel like any clarification we get from the dev team will do much to calm the community!

Edited December 16, 2013 by tntristan12

[Stargate525]

I think there are more people who have just as much confidence as they did last week in Squad's abilities. What I think is a lot of people have put them up on a pedestal, and the feelings of betrayal come from that. Besides, you couldn't be further from right. There are entire libraries of games that you don't know who made them beyond the publisher name and MAYBE the studio. Besides, they have hands, computers, talent. I'm sure they could make another game and if it was cool you'd play it. EA is a horrible company that treats its workers like -excrement-, pushes out generic AAA bull and was voted the worst company in America twice ... and yet they still publish games.

Do you remember how much you loved the teacher in grade school (we all had one) who punished the entire class because of one or two students? That's what they would be doing to an entire fanbase.

And, I'm confused. The who feel betrayed had TOO HIGH of an opinion of Squad...? Either we have high opinions and are holding them to that, or we are complaining and whining and insulting them, calling them incompetent, etcetera.* You can't have it both ways. Pick one.

*Since I've been misunderstood about this twice, at least, let me make it clear. I have utmost respect for squad. I have never called them incompetent, nor have I intentionally insulted them. I hold them to high standards.

Edited December 16, 2013 by KasperVld

[tntristan12]

And, I'm confused. The who feel betrayed had TOO HIGH of an opinion of Squad...? Either we have high opinions and are holding them to that, or we are complaining and whining and insulting them, calling them incompetent, etcetera.* You can't have it both ways. Pick one.

Strongly disagree here. I am disappointed at the recent reversal of their official position on both resources and multiplayer, but I have every confidence that Squad knows what they are doing and will at least make an attempt at reconciliation. Until an official statement is made I'm going to continue to voice my opinion as respectfully as possible, so that on the off chance my posts are read by somebody with pull on the dev team, they will have a reasonable, well thought out counterpoint to their current stance. That is a whole different ballgame from "whining and insulting them, calling them incompetent, etcetera.*" Yes, you can have it both ways, provided you keep reasonable expectations and respect their final position.

[Ravyne]

I think what people miss continually is that someone can disagree (even vehemently) with someone else and still respect them. I, personally, respect the heck out of Squad for creating a game, and I know how hard it is. However, I still think this absolute 180 in policy with no transparency is kind of a bad move.

[Stargate525]

Strongly disagree here...

To be frank, no you don't. HEAR ME OUT!

We're having an agreegument. I'm not accusing the people with the view you have just stated of whining and insulting. In that either/or you quoted, you are FIRMLY in the former category. I'm talking to the people who see your opinion, which tells me you are in that former category, and TELL YOU as a counterpoint that you are actually doing the latter.

What I'm trying to say there is that I don't see how someone can simultaneously lump a person into the group of 'a complaining whiner who hates Squad' and 'I respect Squad and am disappointed they've fallen short of what I feel that they can accomplish.'

It seems to me that some people are claiming we should hold Squad to no standards whatsoever, and simply be happy with whatever they throw us. I don't get that.

[tntristan12]

We're having an agreegument.

That is a fantastic term. Can I borrow that one?

I'm not accusing the people with the view you have just stated of whining and insulting. In that either/or you quoted, you are FIRMLY in the former category. I'm talking to the people who see your opinion, which tells me you are in that former category, and TELL YOU as a counterpoint that you are actually doing the latter.

What I'm trying to say there is that I don't see how someone can simultaneously lump a person into the group of 'a complaining whiner who hates Squad' and 'I respect Squad and am disappointed they've fallen short of what I feel that they can accomplish.'

It seems to me that some people are claiming we should hold Squad to no standards whatsoever, and simply be happy with whatever they throw us. I don't get that.

Okay, fair enough. My apologies for misunderstanding! Yeah, I just wrote a PM to HarvesteR expressing my apologies on behalf of the part of the community that is not providing anything helpful in this time of communal unrest, and just asked that him and the dev team remain persistent in cherry-picking the comments that are constructive or helpful. Here's hoping he listens!

[Stargate525]

That is a fantastic term. Can I borrow that one?

Of course! It was invented by a friend and I after about the fiftieth time we argued for a half hour over something, just to realize we were misunderstanding each others' definitions and terms.

Okay, fair enough. My apologies for misunderstanding! Yeah, I just wrote a PM to HarvesteR expressing my apologies on behalf of the part of the community that is not providing anything helpful in this time of communal unrest, and just asked that him and the dev team remain persistent in cherry-picking the comments that are constructive or helpful. Here's hoping he listens!

Agreed! Once they put out some clarification, I fully intend to write a similar PM (or perhaps an open letter, who knows) stating my personal opinion on it and apologizing for any anger I may have caused. I don't expect it to be treated like a list of demands, I just hope that I can helpfully contribute.

[Rowsdower]

Hey, everyone.

Feel free to continue the conversation in this thread.

Thanks!