.23 - Just not getting the progression-path for science labs.

[Geschosskopf]

Overall I like the balance of science in the update, but I do wish that either transmissions could get a slightly higher percentage of the overall, especially for things like Thermometer readings, or else the lab allowed for a higher overall percentage of science by using it. As it stands, transmissions seem to only be worth while for places where return missions are very prohibitive, like Eve's surface, Tylo's surface and Laythe's surface and maybe some out of the way places like Moho and Eyloo.

I'm thinking the mobile lab currently isn't very useful because after all it's just 2 Kerbals in a small can, which obviously can't do much when compared to the big facility back at KSC. But if that's the case, the traditional Kerbal solution of MOAR should apply. That is, if you hook multiple labs together, you get more science out of it. So like if you have 4 labs docked, that station/base would be able to transmit at 100%.

I do agree, though, that I find it hard to justify the both the loss of data and the transmission cap itself for things like thermometers. I mean, that's just text and numbers: "at X km over Y planet, the temperature is Z degrees". What can KSC do there that the ship with the thermometer cannot? Is it simply that there's so much static in the Kerbol system that only part of the data get through?

[jfjohnny5]

I do agree, though, that I find it hard to justify the both the loss of data and the transmission cap itself for things like thermometers. I mean, that's just text and numbers: "at X km over Y planet, the temperature is Z degrees". What can KSC do there that the ship with the thermometer cannot? Is it simply that there's so much static in the Kerbol system that only part of the data get through?

^ this

Seriously, why is there any science loss for simple instrumentation, outside of contrived game mechanics?

[SpaceToast]

^ this

Seriously, why is there any science loss for simple instrumentation, outside of contrived game mechanics?

x2. It's not like you have to rip the thermometer off the side of the ship, shove it in your pocket, and hand it over back at the space center for full value in real life..

[jordanjay29]

You can reuse major experiments, what's the problem? Everything is going to be smaller. The lab is meant to give you a bonus while you're still low tech. You can use it to explore far flung objects, gain more science while transmitting. When you have teched up, you can go for the return missions.

Docking isn't a low tech part, and docking isn't an early concept. For new players to the game, the Science Lab is going to be an intimidating feature.

[nholzric]

When you need to do science on an inaccessible planet such as Tylo, that one lab will help a lot. It will help even more when cost limitations appear. Assuming Tylo gets as many biomes as Minmus or the Mün, you will save a massive amount of fuel by landing a lab on a rover, and driving the rover around to do science.

I'm not sure I want to spend time driving a rover to three or more biomes on Tylo. I am not a very accomplished rover designer or driver and maybe you have super awesome rovers, but doesn't that sound awfully tedious?

[SpaceToast]

I'm not sure I want to spend time driving a rover to three or more biomes on Tylo. I am not a very accomplished rover designer or driver and maybe you have super awesome rovers, but doesn't that sound awfully tedious?

It really does. Hours looking at procedural terrain. Wee.

[killavirus]

FYI I only started career mode 2 days before patch !!!

I am really confused at the Science station.

I have read the entire thread and I think that most of the for against posts are from people who are clever, and understand alot.

So I can now put a science station in orbit, but as far as i am aware there is no point to it? Or am i getting confused.

If i return a sample, I can get 100%

If i transmit it i can get 20%

If i use the science station i can only get 40% but i have to do it twice.

Why would i ever use the science station ? why not always return ? you need to get your kerbals back home anyway or ?

Also the science station only works with 2 experiments or all of them ?

Apologies for my naivety.

[I_Killed_Jeb]

FYI I only started career mode 2 days before patch !!!

I am really confused at the Science station.

I have read the entire thread and I think that most of the for against posts are from people who are clever, and understand alot.

So I can now put a science station in orbit, but as far as i am aware there is no point to it? Or am i getting confused.

If i return a sample, I can get 100%

If i transmit it i can get 20%

If i use the science station i can only get 40% but i have to do it twice.

Why would i ever use the science station ? why not always return ? you need to get your kerbals back home anyway or ?

Also the science station only works with 2 experiments or all of them ?

Apologies for my naivety.

This is personally how I feel about it

[SpaceToast]

FYI I only started career mode 2 days before patch !!!

I am really confused at the Science station.

I have read the entire thread and I think that most of the for against posts are from people who are clever, and understand alot.

So I can now put a science station in orbit, but as far as i am aware there is no point to it? Or am i getting confused.

If i return a sample, I can get 100%

If i transmit it i can get 20%

If i use the science station i can only get 40% but i have to do it twice.

Why would i ever use the science station ? why not always return ? you need to get your kerbals back home anyway or ?

Also the science station only works with 2 experiments or all of them ?

Apologies for my naivety.

Nope - you understand perfectly.

That's why I've been asking what the intended gameplay flow from the devs is supposed to be.

Are we supposed to wait till duna or jool, and make a station with it connected? Create a gigantorover with it? Launch it to minmus on mission #3?

When they came up with it, how did *they* use it, and why? What is the concept and intent behind it, and benefits of it versus cramming all the experiment results in a little capsule and returning with that, instead?

[nholzric]

Are we supposed to wait till duna or jool, and make a station with it connected? Create a gigantorover with it? Launch it to minmus on mission #3?

When they came up with it, how did *they* use it, and why? What is the concept and intent behind it, and benefits of it versus cramming all the experiment results in a little capsule and returning with that, instead?

If we're "supposed" to wait until Duna or Jool, why is it so low on the tech tree? It's a mystery to me how the Science Station is so low on the tech tree and docking ports are so high.

[SpaceToast]

If we're "supposed" to wait until Duna or Jool, why is it so low on the tech tree? It's a mystery to me how the Science Station is so low on the tech tree and docking ports are so high.

Well...odds are that it's because it's all unfinished, really (nature of a beta). All of the SAS/Reactionwheels/ASAS units do the same thing, but weigh different amounts (the larger is lighter, for example).

[boolybooly]

Lab currently as I understand it gives you the chance to grind even more slowly. Far too punitive.

What it should do is act like a mobile laboratory (!) and enable 100% recovery of experiments with reset (except samples, see below). Then it should be able to transmit or store the experiments.

Materials and goo should need processing but then transmit 100% without losses (otherwise only transmit 40%). Stop the grinding. (Digital readouts should always transmit 100% without processing).

• Surface samples should require a lot of processing but transmit a maximum of 30% from labs but with the ability to store the same samples which are processed for a return to Kerbin to get the other 70%.
  
• Surface samples should have highest relative science values of all the experiments when fully recovered.
  
• The lab should have a large but finite capacity for storing surface samples,
  
  • they should increase its mass / weight eg 10kg a pop x 100 slots (+1 tonne when full).
    
  • A Mk1 capsule should have 5 slots (50kg) just to give you an idea and
    
  • a Mk2 three-Kerbal capsule should have 25 (250kg).
    

This means the lab acts as a lab and also as a transport for samples like the capsules. Then you can bring in a laden lab and either land it or unload it in Kerbin orbit into return capsules.

Edited December 19, 2013 by boolybooly

[Deadweasel]

I think what would make the Science Lab more useful would be a fourfold approach:

1. Give the lab the ability to give a proper massive boost to transmissions (with an appropriate power and transmission equipment requirement "penalty" to make planning more integral to bringing the lab in the first place). Instead of these ludicrous low returns, the thing should be able to transmit and yield 80% or better of the collected science. Otherwise there's no point to lugging that big heavy thing out there in the first place. Currently you still have to return it to realize a useful reward for your planning and work, which doesn't make sense. If it's a lab, it should be able to improve your results in the field, not just provide storage for information collected in the field.
   
2. Give the lab the ability to generate MORE science based on the experiment data it's given. In other words, those other testing equipment results can be processed and factored to yield other information you couldn't get with individual experiments otherwise, giving the player the choice to transmit the results now, or possibly realize even greater returns if they put in the effort to collect more samples and data there before transmission.
   
3. Equipment that yields basic numbers and doesn't rely on a material being tested (thermometers etc) can have their data transmitted for 100% from the craft to a nearby science lab, either in orbit or landed. Material experiments must be returned at least to the lab. If a simple crew report can be transmitted for 100% return, there's no reason a simple temp/gravity/pressure reading can't be, too.
   
4. Returning the tested materials themselves to Kerbin results in even MORE science value, above and beyond that which you might have gotten from transmitting initial results or processing conglomerated tests in the lab. After all, it's kind of assumed that the KSC labs will be more fully equipped and able to wring out more information if they had access to the materials. There are plenty of real world examples where materials were initially tested on-site, but then also returned home, where further insights were discovered that could not have been revealed in the field.
   

[SpaceToast]

Here is the question -

I looked through the configs and:

science bits have this line "xmitDataScalar" which is the loss of science points when transmitting them.

the lab has a line along the lines of "dataTransmissionBoost = 1.5" which is where you get the extra points using it to transmit them

So where is the 40% cap coded? Is it the Scalar in the science part+the "reset" setting not allowing a reset/retransmit?

I think the devs painted themselves in a box here. They wanted to stop transmit spam, so they capped repeatability at 1 (resettable) for these experiments. This had a deleterious effect of lessening the value of the lab.

Is there anyway to actually go above the scalar limit in transmission, or is that the cap?

I didn't have time to test it at home, but I'm wondering. It's possible that even setting the lab's transmit boost to "OvR 9000!!!" will only allow it to transmit the results up to the cap in the science object's configuration file. If that's the case, the only way to change that would be to change the scalar or the reset in the part's config file, which would mean there would be no purpose to the lab at all, as transmit spam would be back. The only thing I can think of is that if we had access to the cap, we could put an exception in for the lab, somehow. Or would the boost line in the lab effect/improve that?

Any thoughts or insights?

Edited December 19, 2013 by SpaceToast

[Ralathon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the science lab really useful when you use it like this?:

Mission list:

Science lab.

Return vehicle.

small probe with experiments.

Spare fuel.

Go somewhere with lots of targets (minmus, Jool or the mun), send out the small probe to land somewhere and gather science. Then get the small probe back up and dock with the science lab. Use a kerbal to EVA over the experiment data to your return capsule. Then use the science lab to reset the experiments and use some spare fuel to top off your science probe. Send the probe somewhere else, rinse and repeat until you're either out of fuel or out of places to go. Now you send back your return capsule and with it 100% science returns for every biome/moon.

This is more efficient since you only need fuel to get the return capsule back home and it can all be done in one big launch.

[Deadweasel]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the science lab really useful when you use it like this?:

Mission list:

Science lab.

Return vehicle.

small probe with experiments.

Spare fuel.

Go somewhere with lots of targets (minmus, Jool or the mun), send out the small probe to land somewhere and gather science. Then get the small probe back up and dock with the science lab. Use a kerbal to EVA over the experiment data to your return capsule. Then use the science lab to reset the experiments and use some spare fuel to top off your science probe. Send the probe somewhere else, rinse and repeat until you're either out of fuel or out of places to go. Now you send back your return capsule and with it 100% science returns for every biome/moon.

This is more efficient since you only need fuel to get the return capsule back home and it can all be done in one big launch.

I think it would work very well like that... IF the lab were capable of receiving 100% of every transmission from a probe within a certain distance. Of course, there could then be losses incurred by transmitting from the lab back to Kerbin, but I still think even those losses should be drastically cut as compared to those had when transmitting from a deployed smaller ship directly back to the homeworld.

[jordanjay29]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the science lab really useful when you use it like this?:

Mission list:

Science lab.

Return vehicle.

small probe with experiments.

Spare fuel.

Go somewhere with lots of targets (minmus, Jool or the mun), send out the small probe to land somewhere and gather science. Then get the small probe back up and dock with the science lab. Use a kerbal to EVA over the experiment data to your return capsule. Then use the science lab to reset the experiments and use some spare fuel to top off your science probe. Send the probe somewhere else, rinse and repeat until you're either out of fuel or out of places to go. Now you send back your return capsule and with it 100% science returns for every biome/moon.

This is more efficient since you only need fuel to get the return capsule back home and it can all be done in one big launch.

That seems like the way to go now.

[SpaceToast]

That seems like the way to go now.

Not really. You can skip the lab and just carry more science equipment. 3.5 tons is a lot of goo and material bays.

Like 17 of them.

Or an FL-400+FL-200 tank worth of fuel. That's a ton of delta-v that can be used in other ways.

Edited December 19, 2013 by SpaceToast

[Brofessional]

The lab isn't really meant for the Mun or Minmus, it's meant to be used around Jool and such. Eventually when all the bodies get biomes, Jool will be a treasure trove of science, but it's fairly impractical to do sample-return missions because it's so far out; especially when funding is added and you don't have infinite money to build giant motherships.

I do think maybe the bonus percentage should be upped, due to the fact that using the lab requires a potentially more complex mission profile; but it shouldn't be any higher than 60% or you discourage sample-return missions.

[Deadweasel]

The lab isn't really meant for the Mun or Minmus, it's meant to be used around Jool and such. Eventually when all the bodies get biomes, Jool will be a treasure trove of science, but it's fairly impractical to do sample-return missions because it's so far out; especially when funding is added and you don't have infinite money to build giant motherships.

I do think maybe the bonus percentage should be upped, due to the fact that using the lab requires a potentially more complex mission profile; but it shouldn't be any higher than 60% or you discourage sample-return missions.

...unless returning the samples gets you even MORE on top of whatever you transmitted back! Again, just having a lab in the field doesn't necessarily mean there isn't more than can be discovered from a material by a more fully-equipped laboratory back on Kerbin. You can encourage their use and improve functionality by making them have a huge positive impact on your deployments when present, and reward the extra planning, building and effort that goes into bringing them out on-site in the first place.

[SpaceToast]

The lab isn't really meant for the Mun or Minmus, it's meant to be used around Jool and such. Eventually when all the bodies get biomes, Jool will be a treasure trove of science, but it's fairly impractical to do sample-return missions because it's so far out; especially when funding is added and you don't have infinite money to build giant motherships.

The math isn't there. The DV cost/weight doesn't work for a 40% transmit cap. 3.5t+ "there and back" cleanings worth of DV isn't going to work when that's the equivalent of 17 science bays. Or, conversely another FL400+FL200 worth of fuel (not counting dV expenses in going to said lab). Basically, that's enough delta-V on a light lander to hop all over the jool system, keep the data in the capsule, and fly home.

It's broken

[DGatsby]

The science lab needs work, that's for sure. I still like it though, even if it's just for purely aesthetic reasons.

[Beachernaut]

I was under the impression that I could put my lab in orbit around Mun, use it to store my experiments of several biomes, then return the lab to Kerbin to get my science and avoid the transmit loss. Is this wrong?

[SpaceToast]

I was under the impression that I could put my lab in orbit around Mun, use it to store my experiments of several biomes, then return the lab to Kerbin to get my science and avoid the transmit loss. Is this wrong?

You can also just put them on a capsule that weighs .8t and return that, for the same result, and a lot less dV usage.

[lazarus1024]

It should be a simple tweak in the config file. When I get home I'll dig around in it and let you know.

Please do, I'd be curious to know. Thanks!