Science Over Time

[technicalfool]

A simple enough idea that's probably a devil to implement. Make some science instruments that drip-feed an amount of science while the game is running and the instrument is active. Say 0.01 units per game day per instrument base rate, as a suggestion. The instruments would of course be power hungry, perhaps make each instrument require a full RTG output to keep active, plus the amount required to transmit accumulated science back to Kerbin.

The amount of science these instruments return from deep space ('high above Kerbol'?) could be unlimited. Voyager 2 is still providing useful new data, there's no reason a Kerbal probe should be any different. Sure, that means that someone could build their first probe with a single instrument, put it in $random_escape_trajectory and wait. However, at 0.01 units/day/instrument, it's going to be a very long, very boring career mode when there's a ready sandbox available if all you want to do is play with all the parts.

It does allow the option of completing the science tree with a rapidly-increasing, massive army of drones after getting your first few big advances with manned return or lander missions though. Honestly, I think that's a good thing. I know the science tree probably/maybe/will be revised between now and 1.0 anyway, so perhaps there's room to fit an idea like this in?

Put another way, I know the developers don't seem to be happy with the entire tech tree being

(as awesome as that video is). It stands to reason that they're going to change this somehow, so maybe changing the old four (thermometer, barometer, gravioli and accelerometer) instruments to behave like this could be one (over-simplified) way of doing it? You can still do a grand tour completion, but now you have to build a capsule and sit on the launch pad for 1000 days in time-warp for the science to come in!

[Themohawkninja]

What's preventing me from exploiting this by sending a probe out of Kerbin's SOI, and just hitting the 100,000x timewarp and waiting a while?

[technicalfool]

What's preventing me from exploiting this by sending a probe out of Kerbin's SOI, and just hitting the 100,000x timewarp and waiting a while?

Because at 0.01 units per day, that's still going to take a while, and 0.01 units/day/instrument was only a suggestion. It could be 0.001 or 0.0001 units, or whatever value makes the one-probe-into-deep-space approach take a stupidly long amount of time, while allowing a useful reward (perhaps planetary biomes have their more limited science extracted a little faster) for sending probes to the various planetary biomes.

And even then, it juust makes for an incredibly long, boring career mode when there's a sandbox option right there. For people who want to do more with their career mode, there's this as a tool.

[Tw1]

I'd prefer to see the parts "reset" in a way that simulates the effect of them being in location over time.

For example, the materials bay may be useless after one transmission.... but give it a month, and it becomes usable again with new info on what happended to the samples during the exposure. This could happen again at one year, two years, etc.

Data about seismic activity, or gravity would be another sort of science where extra layers get unlocked over time. You could set up long term probes to sit there and "take readings", which really means wait while you're off doing other things.

[Themohawkninja]

Because at 0.01 units per day, that's still going to take a while, and 0.01 units/day/instrument was only a suggestion. It could be 0.001 or 0.0001 units, or whatever value makes the one-probe-into-deep-space approach take a stupidly long amount of time, while allowing a useful reward (perhaps planetary biomes have their more limited science extracted a little faster) for sending probes to the various planetary biomes.

And even then, it juust makes for an incredibly long, boring career mode when there's a sandbox option right there. For people who want to do more with their career mode, there's this as a tool.

I suppose, although it seems far to easy to just place a few metric tonnes of those science instruments on a probe, and launch a few probes and be done with it.

[technicalfool]

I'd prefer to see the parts "reset" in a way that simulates the effect of them being in location over time.

For example, the materials bay may be useless after one transmission.... but give it a month, and it becomes usable again with new info on what happended to the samples during the exposure. This could happen again at one year, two years, etc.

Data about seismic activity, or gravity would be another sort of science where extra layers get unlocked over time. You could set up long term probes to sit there and "take readings", which really means wait while you're off doing other things.

Now this is where science over time could be used again, of course with the large electricity requirements. You expose the science bay or canister once for its normal science value, then it carries on slowly dragging science from the biome as long as it's powered and active. Make the rate slow enough that one probe simply won't do unless you like to spend long periods in max time warp doing nothing.

[technicalfool]

I suppose, although it seems far to easy to just place a few metric tonnes of those science instruments on a probe, and launch a few probes and be done with it.

Well, I know the game is still being balanced as far as science goes. It would be nice to have a SOT mechanism like this though, inamongst the instant science bonuses. Hopefully once balanced, the SOT mechanisms won't do you much good at all except at early tree depths if you're just launching a single probe. However, once you have probes in orbit around every planet, it would make sense for some small but useful amount of science to find its way into the pool.

Plus, it gives the option for bonus science points based on random events. For instance, a 10% chance per game-day in low Kerbol orbit biome that "your probe LKO Probe 1 was in range of event: Stellar flare. Bonus 0.5 science points" messages might appear, so long as the probe is running one instrument and can transmit back.

[Sevant]

What's preventing me from exploiting this by sending a probe out of Kerbin's SOI, and just hitting the 100,000x timewarp and waiting a while?

I think the best way around this problem would be to make continuous-use instruments wear out over time. If you're willing to compromise, you could also make continuous-use instruments subject to more extended law of diminishing returns.

For example:

Let's say I put a gravoli detector into orbit around the Sun. Current game mechanics allow for the sun to be divided into regions so I could take multiple gravity readings as I orbit and get an overall idea of the Sun's gravitation field, yielding large research benefits. A new game mechanic could allow for two additional opportunities to gain research from gravity readings around the sun. 1) A continuous gravity scan which lasts a minimum of several months and is disrupted by any change in the probe's orbit. This shows short-term fluctuations in the Sun's gravitational field. 2) A second set of gravity scans around the Sun taken at least 5 or 10 years after the original scans, and then perhaps again every 5 or 10 years. This shows long-term fluctuations in the Suns' gravitational field.

When you combine this mechanic with a mechanic allowing instruments to wear out after so many scans or after a period of time, it allows for ongoing research of dynamic forces in the universe without allowing someone to simply spam science instruments into the sky. There is no point in sending 20 identical probes to the sun at once, you'll only get research credit from 1 set of scans. On the other hand, you can't do all your research with 1 probe because it's going to wear out before it's time to start taking long-term scans.

One last thought, some things aren't very dynamic. After you've taken two dozen seismic readings of the Mun, you've learned pretty much everything you're going to learn even in terms of long-term trends. I think there should still be a limit to how many long-term readings you get to benefit from...of course, it would still be cool if you crash things into the Mun and have a pre-placed seismic sensor feel the effects...but probably impractical from a coding standpoint, and how many research points do we really need anyway?

[Tw1]

You expose the science bay or canister once for its normal science value, then it carries on slowly dragging science from the biome as long as it's powered and active. Make the rate slow enough that one probe simply won't do unless you like to spend long periods in max time warp doing nothing.

Except my thoughts where rather than any trickle of points, there'd just be another set that becomes available after a certain time. A long term study report, with words and points of its own.

[Kegereneku]

There's one big problem with OP's first suggestion : KSC have to show you how much science-point you have and is showing you how much you gained. If you continuously gain 0.01 it will require a change so you aren't overwhelmed by science report.

On the other hand it can be solved easily :

- When you launch the experiment a timer goes on, the game take note

- You can return to KSC and do whatever you want, the game keep track of the ongoing experiment

- A few day, week, month, year later the experiment is considered finished and you gain all the science.

That way you HAD to put the thing in orbit, you weren't obligated to stay focused on it and you got science.

Plus I'm already imagining player making them into satellite and retrieving/cleaning the science in EVA so they don't hire one Kerbal for each experiment.

[Kasuha]

I don't like science over time ideas. I don't like that I have to make a measurement several times, sending the same mission to the same place just to get a few more science points.

I don't like the idea of science points as a whole. I still firmly believe that the game should lead you, reward you with technology for doing certain measurements and make sure you always have maybe challenging but sufficient technology for the next measurement the game wants you to make.

The way it is implemented now there is WAY more science points in the system than what you'll ever have use for. Kerbin SOI alone contains enough science points to uncover the whole tech tree. And if that was lowered you could get to dead end by a few bad choices in the tech tree, preventing you to progress further or making it very hard.

[Tw1]

I don't like science over time ideas. I don't like that I have to make a measurement several times, sending the same mission to the same place just to get a few more science points.

I think most of the ideas being discussed here are about leaving the one thing there for a while, before collecting the long term science, or to get that trickle.

Plus, remember, the tech tree is only supposed to be the first step in career mode. Maybe they'll be something after. The fact that they are finite worries me a little, if I decide to make another the trip out to Duna, only to have it say my tests are worth nothing, it will be a little off putting. I hope something else comes in once you've depleated the science points.

Edited December 20, 2013 by Tw1

[jordanjay29]

I like this idea, it would more closely mimic the science collected from real world space probes that transmit their findings continuously, serving to map regions and find trends rather than simply deliver a snapshot of data.

It would have to be balanced properly with the rest to ensure that there's less chance for exploit, but it seems like this would be a better use for space probes than currently. Once/if life support is ever implemented, sending a long-range probe to study Moho's gravitational field, for example, would be far less costly than maintaining a crew in orbit of Moho.

[Muskiet]

I find it annoying that I go through a lot of work to put a probe on or around a planet/moon, spent a minute to send the science data and then the probe is useless. Right now pumping as many missions out as possible to gather science points so I can research the next stage feels more like grinding then actual fun gameplay. I agree that in real life probes provide more then just a single burst of data and then they're done and would also love to see some sort of gradual science gathering system. I was also thinking gradual science downloads but I do think timers that require you to come back later to send another burst of data is a great idea too! The amount of science points gathered each time could decrease the way it did when we could still continuously reset the experiments.

As to people being able to exploit this system, people can also just go play with the sandbox and not worry about gathering science at all. I don't think people want to spend their time at warp speed just to gather science in stead of having fun playing the game and if they do, so what? It won't impact our fun any will it?

[Yakuzi]

I think science over time would be great for several reasons:

- Stimulation of long-term missions

- Functional orbital research stations and satellites

- Functional rovers and surface research stations

- Incentive for Kerbal infrastructure throughout the Kerbolar system

- It more closely represents how actual science is gathered, which is nice (even for a game)

The on-site research laboratories could run continuous experiments, as well as analyse/process data acquired from the current science sampling equipment which then can be sent back to Kerbin (maybe at 80% of the max scientific value, so returning physical samples to Kerbin will still be beneficial). The continuous experiments would take large amounts of power and perhaps scientific equipment, which would have to be restocked as the lab runs out (prompting resupply missions and preventing extensive time-warp abuse). Over time research labs could also malfunction over time, so you'd have to launch repair & maintenance missions once in a while ("Grab your plunger, Jeb").

Science points would be acquired at intervals, possibly with diminishing returns (or larger returns over longer periods of time).

As for the critics:

people can also just go play with the sandbox and not worry about gathering science at all. I don't think people want to spend their time at warp speed just to gather science in stead of having fun playing the game and if they do, so what? It won't impact our fun any will it?

Additionally, I think research should encompass more than just unlocking the tech tree (e.g. planetary data, resource localisation, etc), so performing science will be rewarding and fun after all tech items are unlocked.

[Kimberly]

I think the ideas of science over time and instant experiments can be harmonized if there is a budget. Then, you can split the two ideas into two concepts: Ordinary research and breakthroughs. Breakthroughs work much like science now, allowing you to unlock new things. Ordinary research is expected of you as a space agency and the rate at which you do this kind of research determines the rate at which you earn money.

For example, you would earn a lot of money from setting up a system of continually transmitting monitoring stations on Laythe. which continuously transmit data. But you wouldn't make any technological breakthroughs from doing so, because you're just repeating the same thing; you would have to go to a new planet or do a new thing on Laythe to earn those points.

[-ELF-]

As for Science over time idea, I second.

My 2 cents would be - include science over time as Space Station option.

1) Launch the lab into space, give it something to explore. I see it as another launch from Kerbin, in some sort "refueling" the scientific resource, which may include a requirement for docking with station.

2) With a time going, Lab in space transforms scientific resource (experimental stuff) into Science points, which may transmitted or recovered with a orbit-to-ground transport vessel.

3) More time spent on orbit doing such science depletes the rate at which science is produced.

4) Move the lab to another SOI and it will start new set of experiments, but still needs new scientific experimental stuff to make science from.

How does it sound?

Seriously, I need a feedback, please...

[jordanjay29]

Has anyone looked at the Science Station mod? [insert generic rebuttal about using any sort of mods here] It basically does do the kind of science over time that seems to be of interest here. It's a mod, and it's intended to work in space (it can be landed on non-Kerbin worlds, but docking is SO much easier in space), but at least it's something.