BioMass Ongoing Development

[seanth]

Work has been killing me, so haven't done it yet. Would a video be better for you?

Really, whatever would be convenient for you. A video would allow you to show and narrate the problems you are encountering....

I've been pretty buried with work-related things as well, but I will try and get feedback to you as soon as I can after I see what's going on.

[i8jello]

Hey, does the Spaceport version still have Kerbals use 1 unit of 02, Food, and Water each day? And what variables should I change the configs to for the food production to be back to what TheDude said? (I want to make a self-sustaining colony on Laythe that holds 100+ Kerbals that extracts water form the sea and 02 from the air using KESA)

[seanth]

Hey, does the Spaceport version still have Kerbals use 1 unit of 02, Food, and Water each day? And what variables should I change the configs to for the food production to be back to what TheDude said? (I want to make a self-sustaining colony on Laythe that holds 100+ Kerbals that extracts water form the sea and 02 from the air using KESA)

I have no clue. I'll see Roboto can provide any clarity.

[MiffedKitty]

I probably need to post more pictures, but I want to get this posted to get you started. Here is the imgur gallery. Yell if you need more info. Heck, yell if this entire post is a rambling mess. http://imgur.com/gallery/jpmb5/new

To start, I tested the gas systems in your mod. Both the separator and compressors seem to work. My only feedback there is that oxygen compressors only produce around .0175 oxidizer per day. I adjusted it to increase the compressor's output to 17.5 per day. Note that I am not saying the oxygen portion of the atmosphere should increase, just that the rate at which it is compressed should be adjusted up to be practical. I think producing 10-20 oxidizer per day per compressor would be sufficient. Thoughts?

For the biomass part of the mod, I built testbeds for my own learning purposes. First one focuses on the large greenhouse and the Koylent maker. Either I am doing things wrong or I have found some bugs (probably both).

The testbed includes:

-probe body (no Kerbals since I run TAC LS and didn't want to affect the Biomass numbers)

-enough electricity generation and storage to power the Death Star's superlaser

-large water source in order to remove that bottleneck (100%)

-extra seedbox (50% full)

-extra food storage to prevent it from filling up (0%)

-a large greenhouse (50% of seeds, biomass, 70% of oxygen, carbon dioxide, and water)

-a koylent maker (0%)

The koylent maker seems to work as intended, although I have not tested it for specific bugs or exceptions.

Experiment Steps:

1) Timewarp. Biomass in the greenhouse drops to ~10%, the oxygen to ~30%, and the CO2 rises to 100%. However, it stops there. Since the CO2 is full, respiration stops. It should continue until all biomass and/or O2 is depleted.

Revert Flight

1) Turn on lights and extend greenhouse panels.

2) Timewarp. From what I understand, with light, CO2, and water, the Biomass should grow and produce more biomass and oxygen. However, only respiration occurs until it hits the 100% CO2 wall again. EDIT: Light works like electricity. If you time warp too quickly, light production falls to zero and only respiration occurs.

3) Activate the IR lights. This should cause the seeds to germinate and increase biomass and oxygen while depleting CO2 and water. Biomass increases, but all other values remain the same.

Revert Flight

1) Turn on lights, extend greenhouse panels, and activate the IR lights.

2) Timewarp. Biomass increases, oxygen and CO2 change correctly, but water does not change. Once biomass reaches 100%, respiration begins and oxygen, CO2, and water change as appropriate until the C02 wall is hit.

Some notes from these experiments:

1) Respiration should continue after CO2 reaches 100%.

2) All values should hold fairly constant once biomass reaches 100%. In that case, growth should be equal respiration. Instead, respiration continues at full rate.

Seems like a lot of the issues are caused by either mistakes setting the effects of each arrange of buttons, or in flaws in how KSP handles resource depletion and generation.

3) Possibly no way to fix it, but the light resource does not play well with timewarp. Maybe increase the amount from 10 to 100 or 1,000?

For my last task, I cannot harvest seeds. Using the same setup as above, with the lights off and panels closed, I tried activating the seed harvester. I get... biocake? Reset, tried the biocake harvester, same thing. I can't figure out where nets me more seeds. Me being dumb, or a bug? Possibly related to the light generation bug in timewarp?

[seanth]

I probably need to post more pictures, but I want to get this posted to get you started. Here is the imgur gallery. Yell if you need more info. Heck, yell if this entire post is a rambling mess. http://imgur.com/gallery/jpmb5/new

I've been away on work-related travel, and will look at/comment on all this later, but wanted to talk about the separator since it's a easy one

To start, I tested the gas systems in your mod. Both the separator and compressors seem to work. My only feedback there is that oxygen compressors only produce around .0175 oxidizer per day. I adjusted it to increase the compressor's output to 17.5 per day. Note that I am not saying the oxygen portion of the atmosphere should increase, just that the rate at which it is compressed should be adjusted up to be practical. I think producing 10-20 oxidizer per day per compressor would be sufficient. Thoughts?

BioMass makes a few assumptions on the nature of resources. In this case, there are two assumptions in play:

1.) "Oxidzer" is liquid oxygen

2.) The densities of fuels in the game are real-world density*4.5 (I can justify this one if needed)

and an added assumption for the separator:

3.) Kerbin has 20.95% oxygen in its atmosphere.

The results of this are that the density of oxygen gas is 0.00000563 tonnes/L and liquid oxygen is 0.005 tonnes/L

If you are going to compress oxygen gas to liquid oxygen the compression is assumed to be ~777x (0.005/0.00000563). If you accept the logic here, we need to look at the separator instead. I need to double check my maths, but I think the real bottleneck is that for every 1 unit of kerbin atmosphere you get ~0.21 units of oxygen per second. I can think of a few ways around this: for example, if you assume the separator can process 10x more atmosphere/sec, you get more O2 out and can compress it.

I'll check the maths and address the other points (esp. the CO2 bug) when I decompress from my trip and can think again.

[Roboto]

Hey, does the Spaceport version still have Kerbals use 1 unit of 02, Food, and Water each day? And what variables should I change the configs to for the food production to be back to what TheDude said? (I want to make a self-sustaining colony on Laythe that holds 100+ Kerbals that extracts water form the sea and 02 from the air using KESA)

BioMass makes no changes to the rate that Kerbals use resources, that is all controlled by the life support mod you are using. We only use O2 and CO2 in the processes to create biomass or when converting biomass into fuel or compressing O2 into liquid oxidizer.

You can change the rate of food production in the cfg file for the food greenhouse. You will find a modulegenerator there that has an output_resource = food and its associated rate. The numbers I use there are not based on any science, just on it's effect on playability and some suggested tweaks upward or downward.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Roboto

[MiffedKitty]

If you accept the logic here, we need to look at the separator instead. I need to double check my maths, but I think the real bottleneck is that for every 1 unit of kerbin atmosphere you get ~0.21 units of oxygen per second. I can think of a few ways around this: for example, if you assume the separator can process 10x more atmosphere/sec, you get more O2 out and can compress it.

No need to mess with the separator, since that is not the bottleneck. The compressor is. Right now, the separator outputs ~0.21 units of oxygen per second. However, if I am reading the compressor file correctly, the compressor can only handle ~0.0007777 oxygen input per second. This means that in order to compress all of the output oxygen from one separator, you would need about 270 compressors. By increasing the rate at which the compressors compress oxygen, you could maintain the correct ratio of gasses in the atmosphere while making the production of fuel a viable option. I think 2-10 compressors per separator might be a good start, depending on how tough you would like to make it for game balance.

On a related note, I have read people talking about taking water from the seas. How does this work?

[seanth]

No need to mess with the separator, since that is not the bottleneck. The compressor is.

Nope.

You are correct: the separator is getting 0.21 units of oxygen per second. But if the density of oxygen gas is 0.00000563 tonnes/L and liquid oxygen is 0.005 tonnes/L, that means you need ~777 units of oxygen gas to get 1 unit of liquid oxygen. I seem to recall that the compressor works faster than the separator can supply the oxygen. I honestly have not reexamined the separator in a while--I made it as a part of a whim, so my memory could be wrong.

I recommend changing the separator my moving the decimal points so the inputs and outputs are increased by a factor of 10. So, the separator would take in 10 units of atmosphere and produce 2.095 units of oxygen gas.

[MiffedKitty]

Well, I just increased the rate of compression by 100x. Two O2 compressors allowed excess oxygen to build up. Three reduced my oxygen reserve at a slower rate. This seems to agree with my 1 separator per 270 compressors estimate. I can send you my setup and the adjusted files if you would like to test it for yourself when you get the time.

Don't mean to be a pain, just trying to help you troubleshoot. Thanks for your work!

[seanth]

Don't mean to be a pain, just trying to help you troubleshoot. Thanks for your work!

Oh, don't misunderstand: I love that you did lots of tests. I'm just trying to explain how it was set up (and why it was that way).

I'll get to your other test results later. I need to process what you did a bit more. I think I understand the source of one of the bugs, but want to make sure before I run off at the mouth.

[i8jello]

On a related note, I have read people talking about taking water from the seas. How does this work?

Requires KESA, you can find it here.

Also requires KSP Interstellar, you can find it here.

You need an Interstellar ISRU Refinery (not the Inline one) and a Megajoule power source. Water mined from oceans or from planets like Duna will automatically become TAC Life Support water, and TAC Life Support water can be used with the mod as reactant in KSPI refineries and drinkable water for Kerbals with TAC.

[dbmorpher]

Do you need TAC for this mod to produce fuel? I haven't been able to do anything even at a high time warp. I have a greenhouse and a generator and adequate power but I cannot get the reactor to produce anything. I also could not see a bacteria greenhouse. I got the spaceport version should I get the github?

[seanth]

Do you need TAC for this mod to produce fuel? I haven't been able to do anything even at a high time warp. I have a greenhouse and a generator and adequate power but I cannot get the reactor to produce anything. I also could not see a bacteria greenhouse. I got the spaceport version should I get the github?

This thread is geared more toward the version on github (biomass+). The biomass+ version does not have a bacteria greenhouse, though it does have what are parts for "composting." Right now biomass+ requires the kethane dll for things to work. We are actively working toward eliminating this requirement. You don't need TAC to generate fuel, but things will not work at too high a time warp.

Edited March 1, 2014 by seanth

[kiwiak]

WIll there be some versiom specifically tweaked to just include life support functionality?

Im not interested in generating fuel, it feels bit cheaty.

[Roboto]

WIll there be some versiom specifically tweaked to just include life support functionality?

Im not interested in generating fuel, it feels bit cheaty.

Already is.

[Roboto]

Do you need TAC for this mod to produce fuel? I haven't been able to do anything even at a high time warp. I have a greenhouse and a generator and adequate power but I cannot get the reactor to produce anything. I also could not see a bacteria greenhouse. I got the spaceport version should I get the github?

The spaceport version is working, I tested it just the other day. The rate at which it creates biomass is rather slow though.

[dbmorpher]

Should I use physical or non-physical time warp?

[Roboto]

Should I use physical or non-physical time warp?

You know what, I've never tried changing it up. It would be interesting to see.

[dbmorpher]

EDIT: Nevermind...

Edited March 2, 2014 by dbmorpher

[freedomispopular]

Edit: I'm happy to share a spreadsheet used to obtain these values and to explain where starting values came from, why certain calculations were done, etc.

Do you have that spreadsheet handy? I still need to do more research, but I was planning on using different (as in different from the default) TAC-LS values for when I start my career mode, so if I could see how your changes correlate with mine that would be great.

[seanth]

Do you have that spreadsheet handy? I still need to do more research, but I was planning on using different (as in different from the default) TAC-LS values for when I start my career mode, so if I could see how your changes correlate with mine that would be great.

No problem. Take a look at https://www.dropbox.com/s/ca0aushu5un6cmn/Public%20BioMass%20Calculation%20Helper%20v3.xls

Feel free to ask questions if you have them.

[freedomispopular]

All right, I think I'm finally starting to understand the + version. Just have a few questions:

1. The biomass won't start converting into seeds until the greenhouse is full, correct? So, since 50 seeds(or I guess that's 5 kg of seeds?) results in roughly 25 biomass, in order to fill the greenhouse completely full, you'd need a TON of seeds?

2. What is the process for turning compressed CO2 into CO2? And what is the purpose of having both?

3. Should the greenhouse be consuming water/wastewater? Because it wasn't in my testing.

[seanth]

All right, I think I'm finally starting to understand the + version. Just have a few questions:

1. The biomass won't start converting into seeds until the greenhouse is full, correct? So, since 50 seeds(or I guess that's 5 kg of seeds?) results in roughly 25 biomass, in order to fill the greenhouse completely full, you'd need a TON of seeds?

2. What is the process for turning compressed CO2 into CO2? And what is the purpose of having both?

3. Should the greenhouse be consuming water/wastewater? Because it wasn't in my testing.

I just found out I have a concussion, so forgive me.

Just to be clear on the whole biomass+ thing, here are some critical points (simplified from reality):

1.) Seeds germinate into Plants

2.) Plants need oxygen.

3.) Plants grow using light, water and CO2

4.) Plants produce seeds.

There has been a common misconception that one needs to fill a greenhouse with seeds to then fill a greenhouse with biomass. You don't need fill a greenhouse with seeds to get biomass. You put a few seeds in a greenhouse, germinate them, and then let them, grow. As long as you have light, water and CO2, biomass will make more biomass until the greenhouse is full.

I will say that again: biomass makes more biomass as long as there is light, water and CO2. Just like real plants. I will assume this confusion comes from people not having gardens and/or not groking in fullness how plants grow.

Once the greenhouse is full, the biomass isn't converted into seeds, it makes seeds. To be specific, the large greenhouse produces 0.0000138889kg of seeds per second on the "Normal" level of difficulty.

2. What is the process for turning compressed CO2 into CO2? And what is the purpose of having both?

It sounds odd, but you need to have the CO2 compressor to decompress it. The compressors act as compressors and release valves. As for they why there is both compress CO2 and CO2 at atmospheric pressure, it's partly due to compatibility with TAC Life Support. Since Tac LS has Kerbals producing CO2 at STP, and plants consume (and produce CO2) at STP, there is a slight problem if one wants to grow plants without something like TAC LS producing CO2. The problem is at 1kg of uncompressed CO2 would occupy approximately 509m3...which is a giant tank. No one transports gasses in an uncompressed form. Thus the need for the compressor/release valve part. Make sense?

3. Should the greenhouse be consuming water/wastewater? Because it wasn't in my testing.

Yes. It should be consuming either/both. The rate of consumption is slow (plants grow slowly), so maybe it's working but you have so much water available that you can't see the drops?

Note: if you don't provide constant light to plants, they will stop photosynthesizing (turning CO2 and water into biomass and O2) and will do the opposite (turn biomass and O2 into CO2 and water).

Edited March 8, 2014 by seanth

[freedomispopular]

I just found out I have a concussion, so forgive me.

Crap. Hope you get feelin better.

Just to be clear on the whole biomass+ thing, here are some critical points (simplified from reality):

1.) Seeds germinate into Plants

2.) Plants need oxygen.

3.) Plants grow using light, water and CO2

4.) Plants produce seeds.

There has been a common misconception that one needs to fill a greenhouse with seeds to then fill a greenhouse with biomass. You don't need fill a greenhouse with seeds to get biomass. You put a few seeds in a greenhouse, germinate them, and then let them, grow. As long as you have light, water and CO2, biomass will make more biomass until the greenhouse is full.

I will say that again: biomass makes more biomass as long as there is light, water and CO2. Just like real plants. I will assume this confusion comes from people not having gardens and/or not groking in fullness how plants grow.

Once the greenhouse is full, the biomass isn't converted into seeds, it makes seeds. To be specific, the large greenhouse produces 0.0000138889kg of seeds per second on the "Normal" level of difficulty.

Thanks, after going back and doing more testing, I am seeing the biomass reproduce itself, it's just REALLY slow. Which is cool. I didn't want it to be too OP. One more clarification: do the water and CO2 actually have to be manually transferred INTO the greenhouse to facilitate photosynthesis, or will it automatically use whatever's attached to the ship?

Yes. It should be consuming either/both. The rate of consumption is slow (plants grow slowly), so maybe it's working but you have so much water available that you can't see the drops?

Note: if you don't provide constant light to plants, they will stop photosynthesizing (turning CO2 and water into biomass and O2) and will do the opposite (turn biomass and O2 into CO2 and water).

I should clarify. I have a fully manned Mk1-2 command pod attached to my craft, so water is being consumed, but at what appears to be the same rate as the food. Does that sound right? I assumed the water would be draining faster than that, even just slightly, due to the photosynthesis. Or is the consumption rate due to photosynthesis so miniscule that it's not really noticeable?

It sounds odd, but you need to have the CO2 compressor to decompress it. The compressors act as compressors and release valves. As for they why there is both compress CO2 and CO2 at atmospheric pressure, it's partly due to compatibility with TAC Life Support. Since Tac LS has Kerbals producing CO2 at STP, and plants consume (and produce CO2) at STP, there is a slight problem if one wants to grow plants without something like TAC LS producing CO2. The problem is at 1kg of uncompressed CO2 would occupy approximately 509m3...which is a giant tank. No one transports gasses in an uncompressed form. Thus the need for the compressor/release valve part. Make sense?

Specifically, what do I need to activate on the compressor to decompress the CO2?

Sorry for all the questions, I just REALLY want to make use of this.

[seanth]

Sorry for all the questions, I just REALLY want to make use of this.

No problem.

There are two slightly out of date "how to" videos I made that I posted on the development thread, and I probably should have put them here:

Part 1 shows you all the basic parts you need and how to use them to get your biomass growing. Note that the video was made before IR lights caused germination:

Part 2 clarifies something I made a mistake about in the first video:

Those videos should hopefully clarify that you don't need to transfer water into the greenhouse it to be used. They should also illustrate how to decompress gasses.