Is the tech tree getting too easy to fill out?

[Themohawkninja]

I decided to do a bit of math with regards to how much science it takes per biome to unlock the entire tech tree, and as it turns out, even when you disclude intra-atmosphere (except for the analyzer part) and near/far space environments, it only takes 306.8 science per biome on the Kerbin, the Mun, and Minmus alone to get though the entire tree. Adding the near/far space environments drops the number to only 261.9, and by the time you add all the other bodies with near/far space environments (15 other bodies with 2 environments each equals 30 additional environments), the per biome number to unlock the entire tech tree is only 151.2.

That 151.2 science per biome is less than every experiments' base value combined (which is 158).*

Therefore, I would like to discuss whether or not the tech tree needs to be made more difficult to fill out when biome maps are added for more and more of the systems' bodies, and if so, how should it be made more difficult and how much more difficult it should be made?

*Doesn't take into account recovering a craft, as that is entirely dependent on how far the craft flew.

Edited December 22, 2013 by Themohawkninja

[boomerdog2000]

I was wondering the same thing since after 3 Mun flights and 2 Minmus flights I'm fairly far through the tech-tree. It seems increasing the required science might not be a bad idea, at least for the higher tiers.

[Algiark]

Suggestion: don't make the tech tree more difficult, add more things to research beyond parts that require gargantuan amounts of science.

[ArmchairGravy]

I'm on the fence on this. While I was able to unlock everything but ion drives and large rover wheels by farming Mun and Minmus, I needed all that tech for my Duna return, which netted 4k. So I'm with Algiark, another tier or two of high-end tech would be best. The Kethane mod did this with the Kethane electric generator.

[jwenting]

sigh, as has been posted by the devs before, the tech tree is NOT meant to be hard. It's meant to be a more or less gentle introduction to the game, not the game itself.

If you want to make things harder on yourself, limit yourself. Limit yourself to using only 1.25m parts, no more than 1 experiment per craft, only 2 stage rockets, whatever takes your fancy. Don't go out and demand that Squad raise the bar and make the game harder to get in to for everyone else, because however hard they make it there will always be some who think it's too easy.

[Murph]

I don't think that the tech tree is too easy right now, to be honest. There's a lot of changes will happen between 0.23 and 1.0, so it's probably not worth worrying too much about perfect balance of the tree at this stage. Additional biomes and additional parts are going to throw any balancing off, plus things like the economy, missions, contracts, etc will likely change the picture in ways that throw the balance off.

Keeping it easy-ish during the development phase makes a lot of sense, in terms of keeping it accessible to all. Long term, it probably needs a difficulty setting to cater to all tastes.

[MKI]

Yes it is to easy to fill out.

But that is the point isn't it?

I feel that either in the near future or even the next update they will make career mode more challenging. Not by making the parts harder to get, but by adding other components to the game. (ive heard part prices will be added, and money)

I personally do not believe getting all the parts is the main end game goal of the career mode. It can be seen as the first primary long term objective, but the career mode still needs more game play additions to become more well rounded. I can see some changes to the tree just for balance reasons, but i do not see a huge difficulty increase overall.

[Murph]

I feel that either in the near future or even the next update they will make career mode more challenging. Not by making the parts harder to get, but by adding other components to the game. (ive heard part prices will be added, and money)

I personally do not believe getting all the parts is the main end game goal of the career mode. It can be seen as the first primary long term objective, but the career mode still needs more game play additions to become more well rounded. I can see some changes to the tree just for balance reasons, but i do not see a huge difficulty increase overall.

Yeah, we've (hopefully) only just scratched the surface of career mode and science right now.

[Grover]

Excpect an overhaul or two in the long run, but i think that science wont be the main drive of career mode in the end, i think the limiting factor of our space programs (until someone points out an exploit at least) will be money, especially when you look at the cost of a gravioli detector compared to a command pod, those thngs are like chunks of gold bolted onto your craft

[tntristan12]

I think a more elegant solution would be to require different types of science for different types of technologies. As you get farther in the game it should require players to venture beyond their comfort zones and explore new worlds. What if a type of engine could only be researched by science you gather on eve observing how the sand... Combusts or something like that? Give the player a reason to go exploring. That should be the whole point of career mode!

[Kasuha]

I think it will be very hard to balance the tech tree if the implementation stays as it is. Either it will be easy, allowing you to fill (most of) the tech tree just within Kerbin SOI, or it will become too hard for some people to move on after certain point, especially if they make a few bad choices in the tree.

The game should not require you to visit Duna with level 0 parts (exaggerating), it should provide you challenges corresponding to the tech level you have and advance you through tech levels as you pass these challenges. That's why I think the concept of science points should be dropped completely and parts should be rewarded for sets of particular predetermined measurements. There's enough measurements and enough parts to keep you busy for quite a while and many insubstantial parts can be rewarded for measurements at the most distant targets in the system such as Eeloo or Moho.

[Eric S]

Yeah, we've (hopefully) only just scratched the surface of career mode and science right now.

This. Trying to figure out how career mode will play out at this point is sort of like trying to figure how how a full, normal game of chess would play when all you know about the game is all the rules pertaining to pawns. We blast through the tech tree now because that's the only thing that matters, and if you're min-maxing, you're planning missions according to how much science they can return. That may very well change when we've got other factors to consider.

This isn't to say that we shouldn't ponder on what else career mode may bring, just that judging science by how it feels when it's the only thing in the game may not reflect accurately on how it feels when it's just one part of a complete career mode.

[Atoning Unifex]

How about a difficulty setting that applies a multiplier to the science required. This will allow you to control the difficulty yourself

[LethalDose]

I still haven't even been able to play 0.23 yet. I'm going to play through a Vanilla career game, then I think I'm going to go into the code and increase the costs of the tech tree by ~ 50% across the board to see how it plays.