How much work of squad is showed in updates

[Thomas988]

I think Squad, for every update, should focus on something big (0.22 was Career, 0.23 was science changes and tweakables) and release it when its done. I think filling the time with mostly useless parts will make for less memorable updates.

[jwenting]

You are pretty correct with bridges who are pretty known technology.

All recent huge aircraft projects has run over time, over budget and had lots of bugs. dreamliner and F35 is the current in spotlight.

They contains far less know technology than bridges.

so you're claiming that because Boeing and Lockheed didn't invent the aircraft, they can't be credited with having designed, created, and built those machines?

Sheesh.

[nine_iron]

"memorable updates"

Interesting way of looking at it, yes its nice for updates to have milestones but its not necessary IMO.

If Squad choose to have an update which is primarily optimisation and mass minor improvement/bug fixes then I am sure a lot of users would be very happy with that.

IMO it does not matter if the work shows instantly in an update or not, nor do I think it an update has to "show" all of the work put in with features and object. As long as it makes progress to v1.0 and contributes to improving something (be it now or in the future) then Squad do a good job.

These guys are probably not taking any more money from me unless I donate or buy KSP as a gift so anything they do is welcomed with open arms.

[Travisfv]

Their is a lot of anger is this thread.

For those defending the pace, just because others cannot build a game, doesn't mean they can't want more and can't criticize.

For those opposing the pace, I don't believe every update can be the latest and greatest all the time. There will be times when what they release isn't impressive to the eye, but the smoothness that the game runs now (especially for an alpha), and the ease it is to build rockets (compare that to good old wobbly rockets), and you'll see where the time is going. This game, as alpha as it may be, is a pretty solid piece of software. I don't ever crash playing this game. Dice and battlefield 4 are still working out the kinda with millions of dollars and huge teams.

Squad is perfecting their product as they go. When 1.0 is released, it will be as stable as games come if they keep up this work.

And I would say I am for more big stuff and stock parts at each release, but what I want isn't what squad is going to do, and my judgment is not final or even reasonable, given the quality of the game so far.

Let's just all understand that the slow pace is the price we pay for the insane stability of this game.

[m1xte]

Slower the pace less change to actually finish the game.

Squad needs steady income of money to keep development running.

Steady income comes by new players only and longer it takes to finish less potential buyers there is for final product because everybody got the alpha.

And less interest there is to actually finish this game.

I see multiplayer as a start of something like this

[iDan122]

I still don't understand how it takes 2 months to add 2 new parts and tweakables, which are quite easy(basically editing of the .cfg and .sav files with a UI) and seriously, why sucha long time to make 2 parts? A mk3 c,Argo bay would've been handier than some science lab.

As much as I like squad, the development of KSP is incredibly slow and some 10 people isn't enough.

Why can't they hire some 5 more people? Or develop a new tenchique?

[Clockwork_werewolf]

OK firstly in terms of them adding 5 new people read this, I did computer science at university and it is VERY true http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month

Secondly the the 0.23 was not just 2 parts and tweekables it was...

Upgrading to unity 4.2.2, if you know 4.2.2 off by heart and every change inside and out that is amazing. If not then this slows present work a little, but it speeds up the game AND future work.

R&D archives. This may look simple to the player but it is code UI and graphics that need to be made from scratch. Appreciate it or not it is a lot of work.

Lab module. Requires new code, models and a reworking or old code to fit the new system.

Change to the Science system. Requires changing the code for all science (and not breaking it).

New Biome maps for Minmus. Someone had to decide what the biomes should be then draw or code where they are, then link this information to all the science area's

Updated Tooltips. Coding Work and graphical work. It should help KSP be less daunting to new players.

Support for 6 DOF devices. Coding work, on subjects that very few know about. Needed probably not but good for those who have it yes.

RAPIER engine. Graphical work, codeing work and its not just about creating the engine but changing ALL the old engines so that they can work WITH the new engine.

Speed Upgrade. Do you know how to do this? This is like taking out someones organs and blood vessels and them putting them back in a better way. You have to have it ALL working or the patient dies and yet they have succeed and made a big improvement.

Programming is NOT like making a bridge. It is like trying to make a bridge out of bones. Can it be done? Has anyone done it before "no". Should it be done? How do you do it? What would make the bridge fail? Now tell me a scheduled date for that or I'm not happy. PS not I'm not telling you how long the bridge of bones should be, I will always want it to be longer.

[Galileo Kerbonaut]

I still don't understand how it takes 2 months to add 2 new parts and tweakables, which are quite easy(basically editing of the .cfg and .sav files with a UI) and seriously, why sucha long time to make 2 parts? A mk3 c,Argo bay would've been handier than some science lab.

As much as I like squad, the development of KSP is incredibly slow and some 10 people isn't enough.

Why can't they hire some 5 more people? Or develop a new tenchique?

Nice to see how you totally neglect:

New:

* The Science Archives:
- Browse through all the science you've done in your Career games in this new section of the R&D Facility. 



* Science Revisited:
- Transmitting scientific data no longer allows you to max out the value of a subject just by repeating the transmission multiple time.
- Removing the experiment data from some experiment modules (for transmission or by EVA) will render them inoperable.
- Resetting an experiment can still be done freely as long as the data is not removed from the module.

* Solar System:
- Added a new Biome Map for Minmus.
- Cleaned up the Biome Maps for Kerbin and the Mun, to remove areas where Biomes would be detected incorrectly.

* EVA Data Transport:
- Kerbals on EVA can now collect the data from experiment modules and store them on crew-carrying modules.
- Kerbals can also collect data from other data container modules, including other Kerbals.
- EVAs can also store samples collected from other experiments on the Lab. 

* Part Tooltips Overhaul:
- The tooltips that pop up when mousing over a part on the editors have been completely redesigned.
- The tooltips show essential info only at first, but can be expanded to show more info with RMB.
- Once expanded, you can right-click again to collapse, or to pin other tooltips if you hover over other parts.
- Re-organized the part information to group stats for each module and resource container on a part.
- Added a larger icon for the part on the tooltip itself, featuring a scale to give an idea of size before picking. 

* All-around Optimizations:
- We've gone over all our code to make sure it runs as efficiently as possible.
- Upgraded to Unity version 4.2.2 to make full use of its own bugfixes and tweaks.
- Texture loading has been sped up, loading times are noticeably reduced.

* [Windows-Only] 6-DOF Device Support:
- 6-DOF input devices such as the Space Navigator are now supported both as camera and flight controllers.
- Scroll Lock will toggle the device mode in flight.
- Due to driver limitations this is a Windows-only feature for now. We're ready to implement support in OSX and Linux as soon as those drivers become available.


Bug Fixes and Tweaks:

* Parts:
- The logic for all-vessel resource flow (such as Electric Charge and MonoPropellant) has been re-done. 
- Fixed those resource containers not being able to drain fully or store an amount larger than their current available space.

* Docking:
- Fixed an issue that caused docking ports to resume their states incorrectly after docking, making it impossible to undock afterwards.
- Fixed a big issue with docking operations through physicsless parts in the hierarchy between the port and the original vessel root.

* EVAs:
- EVAs now use actual resources for their jetpack propellant, instead of their own fuel system. 
- Fixed an issue with collision resolution that caused EVAs to sometimes fall over and become uncontrollable.
- Kerbals other than you will now pick themselves up from ragdoll state if they are involved in any 'accidents' or are flat out being used as Kerbowling pins.
- Parts that land onto splashed-down parts are now considered to be landed. This allows EVAs to walk on floating platforms.

* Other Fixes:
- The Return key will no longer reset the staging sequence in the Editors, or return you to the Main Menu at KSC.
- The Main Menu now remembers the 'page' you were at when you left it, so if you return from a loaded game, you'll find it still at the "Start Game" screen.
- Fixed several issues with joystick axis mapping and indexing.
- Updated the Input settings screen to expose a few new control options that weren't accessible before.
- Fixed an issue that could lead to loss of GUI responsiveness after leaving flight during reentry or supersonic flight.

[Skyrunner27]

The biggest update in .23 was the science archive which you failed to mention. Its use allows you to see where you still have to do science. Which means no more missions to see how much more science you can do.

[Frostiken]

Not sure if he is just trolling. The game is an ALPHA. It was pre-released to the public, they have never said anything about deadlines publicly. With programming, it is hard to meet set in stone deadlines because of all of the debugging involved. Squad also doesn't have a final plan for the game yet, so deadlines would be completely arbitrary.

The game's been in alpha for three freaking years. The science aspect is still overly-simplified and deeply unsatisfying, we have no other aspects of career mode yet, plenty of people are so bored with the existing celestial bodies that they made their own because Squad won't, and we definitely would need an official reboot by the time 1.0 rolls around, and the aerodynamics are still non-existent.

Oh and everyone's favorite, the resource system.

Edited December 26, 2013 by Frostiken

[marach]

The game's been in alpha for three freaking years.

Average AAA dev time is now 4-6 years (consider HL3 is supposedly still in active development HL2 is over 9 years old at this point...) Alpha lasts almost all of those years, Beta is actually a pretty short period usually less than 9 months

[Sirrobert]

I still don't understand how it takes 2 months to add 2 new parts and tweakables, which are quite easy(basically editing of the .cfg and .sav files with a UI) and seriously, why sucha long time to make 2 parts? A mk3 c,Argo bay would've been handier than some science lab.

As much as I like squad, the development of KSP is incredibly slow and some 10 people isn't enough.

Why can't they hire some 5 more people? Or develop a new tenchique?

Did you somehow miss the entire optimazations? I guess you never launch anything bigger than 50 parts than if you haven't noticed it.

The game's been in alpha for three freaking years. The science aspect is still overly-simplified and deeply unsatisfying, we have no other aspects of career mode yet, plenty of people are so bored with the existing celestial bodies that they made their own because Squad won't, and we definitely would need an official reboot by the time 1.0 rolls around, and the aerodynamics are still non-existent.

Oh and everyone's favorite, the resource system.

How long do games take to develop? Last I checked, more than 3 years. Almost ALL of the development time is alpha.

Beta doesn't start until the game is almost done, and all features are basicly complete.

And this solar system is how squad WANTS the system (including the gas giant and other planets already planned). Let's let squad make the game they want. They made modding EXTREMELY easy for just those complaints. People wanting to customize a game to their own needs is exactly why modding exists

[BubbaWilkins]

Oh yay. This archtypical thread again.

It's the "I'm not a game developer, but they should be further along, done, doing more, working harder, etc" thread.

Respectfully, if you are not in the industry or profession of a given product or service, then you have absolutely no concept of the entire scope of any process involved.

And for the record, after 25 years in construction of all types of buildings...there hasn't been one yet that met every initial schedule deadline or milestone perfectly. Stuff happens which you can't control, no exceptions.

[m1xte]

Last page statistics

New players vs. old players...

Join Date: 2012

"I still don't understand how it takes 2 months to add 2 new parts and tweakables"

Join Date: 2013

"Upgrading to unity 4.2.2, if you know 4.2.2 off by heart and every change inside and out that is amazing."

Join Date: 2013

"Nice to see how you totally neglect..."

Join Date: 2011

"The game's been in alpha for three freaking years."

Join Date: 2013

"Average AAA dev time is now 4-6 years..."

Join Date: 2013

"Did you somehow miss the entire optimazations?"

Join Date: 2013

"Oh yay. This archtypical thread again."

Uraaaaa MULTIPLAYAaaaaaaaaaH

[Sirrobert]

snip

And this is helpfull... how?

[Guest Brody_Peffley]

And this is helpfull... how?

To show that the people that joined later is immature and doesn't understand a thing about making a games and how they can't make a games themselves and has to blame squad for everything that they done and are just simply trolls who have to get out of here.

And they didn't notice that HARV HERE WAS DOING MOST OF THE WORK ALONE FOR FREAKING 2 YEARS. And that science was just added. Because they were too busy blaming squad for doing stupid things. And which squad is trying there best.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Brody_Peffley

[Dodgey]

Complaining that a feature is under developed whole a game is still in development just doesn't make any sense. Career mode and the science system was only just introduced into the game. it's only the very beginning of what it will turn out to be. Complaining that it is very shallow at this point is like complaining that a house looks very empty while it is being constructed.

[m1xte]

Sirrobert

Did you actually tried the game or did you just use your time to write 1000 messages in 6 months?

One year before answer to newbies about multiplayer was "There will be no multiplayer... never... ever..."

Wanna get banned?

Make a poll "Does community want multiplayer?"

trololo13lolo13lolol13lolololooooo

Edited December 27, 2013 by m1xte

[Clockwork_werewolf]

Ermmm from those snippets it looks like the LONGER you have been on the forums the less patient you are. Really though that's generalising just based on when people joined the forums, not played the game, or how old they are, or whither they have programmed before, or worked in an IT company.

[Galileo Kerbonaut]

To show that the people that joined later is immature and doesn't understand a thing about making a games and how they can't make a games themselves and has to blame squad for everything that they done and are just simply trolls who have to get out of here.

And they didn't notice that HARV HERE WAS DOING MOST OF THE WORK ALONE FOR FREAKING 2 YEARS. And that science was just added. Because they were too busy blaming squad for doing stupid things. And which squad is trying there best.

It's exactly the opposite!

Did you understand anything from what I posted? Guess not...

MODS, please close this thread... this is going nowhere.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Galileo Kerbonaut

[Clockwork_werewolf]

MODS, please close this thread... this is going nowhere.

I Second that statement.

[Arran]

I think you are mixing up â€Âworking on a schedule†with actual deliveries. Not a single one of the things you mentioned is delivered on schedule, they all run late. Sure there is a planned timeline, but those are usually optimistic and rarely ever met. Would you rather have a restaurant put a plate with half cooked food on your table? “The pasta needed five more minutes and the sauce is missing but time was upâ€Â

Examples of work running late and delivered “when it's done,†not as per schedule:

Airbus A380

Boeing Dreamliner

Roadwork in general. By the way, most interstates if not all interstates were delivered in pieces “when it’s done,†the Squad way, and not when the entire road eastcoast to westcoast (or N to S for odd numbers) was completed

La Sagrada Familia in Barcelona

The Delta Works Plan in The Netherlands (especially the Oosterscheldekering)

Boston’s “big digâ€Â

And I can go on. Just because there’s a schedule doesn’t mean it’s met. Conversely just because there’s no on-time delivery doesn’t mean there is no schedule.

Squad is in a rough spot. If they freeze their development plan “they are ignoring the community†but if they change direction of development “they have no plan,†you can’t keep everyone happy obviously.

Then think of the NZ line in amsterdam, startingdate of the constructions was aroun 1996, planned completion date 2009, prosponed to at least 2015.

Initional costs 1.5 Miljard euro, current costs 9.5 Miljard euro, and still more money is needed for the project..

Deadlines... yea sure!..

OP clearly has never worked a day in his live in any production enviroment, or construction related.

Like you i have over 25 years IT/Telecom construction expierence, except from consumer home jobs, i never had one big job that ever made the deadline.

Only jobs i made in time, where installing some basic consumer equipment, and then even though where hard to keep up the schedule, and more as often ofc one of the 5 jobs a day had to run into problems, where i was getting home late again..

How how often required updates that where promised to arrive, where prosponed again at unforseen problems the last moment, or where utterly buggy when dispearsed into the field, giving us even more problems as without the update..

Nah, threads like this are only trolling, or writting by people that have no clue..

[SkyHook]

Ermmm from those snippets it looks like the LONGER you have been on the forums the less patient you are. Really though that's generalising just based on when people joined the forums, not played the game, or how old they are, or whither they have programmed before, or worked in an IT company.

I can agree with that statement. We are less patient because we have already mastered things like orbital mechanics and base building, etc. The last feature that experienced players got was docking, back in 0.18. Five updates (at 3 months per update) without a fun feature can kind of make any player a little peeved. The nail in the coffin is the fact that the Devs confirmed that the most wanted endgame feature has been canned, and that the foreseeable future of the game will be devoted to new players. That's pretty discouraging.

[Frostiken]

The nail in the coffin is the fact that the Devs confirmed that the most wanted endgame feature has been canned, and that the foreseeable future of the game will be devoted to new players. That's pretty discouraging.

And you know what, I entirely blame the dev's glacial pace for this. 'Hardcore' players aren't buying the game twice, and they still need to fund what I assume will be at *least* two more years of development before we even think about 'beta'.

Canning resources, procedural planets, and multiple star systems so they can dumb-down the game for easy money is insulting.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Frostiken
More spite

[Ernest3.14]

I can agree with that statement. We are less patient because we have already mastered things like orbital mechanics and base building, etc. The last feature that experienced players got was docking, back in 0.18. Five updates (at 3 months per update) without a fun feature can kind of make any player a little peeved. The nail in the coffin is the fact that the Devs confirmed that the most wanted endgame feature has been canned, and that the foreseeable future of the game will be devoted to new players. That's pretty discouraging.

^ This. The cancellation of resources is rather irritable, and now this interview that seems to make it look like the Kerbol system will be the only one, and then multiplayer... Idk. Admittedly, it does seem like 0.23 is a rather small update, but then again I have no idea how much time was spent on optimization, so my intuitive feels may be completely off. :/

Ps.: Many of us here on the forums are programmers, and have a general idea of how much development is going on (especially modders).