[1.8+] Real Fuels

[Zander]

NATHAN fix the date in the post title. Its 2014 not 2013. I missed the update because I kept seeing 2013 in the post title.

[xZise]

Chestburster and I are working on a more interesting stockalike set that will be using more fuels, just to warn ya.

I'm looking forward to a RFv4 stockalike version Although I'm worried about all the fuels you might add (although I don't know which fuels that might be).

Fabian

Edited January 5, 2014 by xZise

[J_Davis]

I'm looking forward to a RFv4 stockalike version Although I'm worried about all the fuels you might add (although I don't know which fuels that might be).

Fabian

Here's the plan I've been working from.

Type	1		2		3		Mixture				Ignitions	Mode		Throt

L	Kerolox		NTO+Aerozine	Kerosene+HTP	Lean Mix (Normal * 1.1)		2		1		+3
	KL		AZ		KHP		
	2.52		2.75		7.15


L+	Kerolox		NTO+Aerozine	Hydrolox	Balanced (Normal)		2		1		+2
	KL		AZ		HL		
	2.29		1.59		5


U	Hydrolox	UDMH+NTO	Kerolox		Rich (Normal * 1.1)		4		1		+2
	HL		UD		KL		
	4.54		1.91		2.08


U+	Hydrolox	UDMH+NTO	Metholox	Very Rich (Normal * 1.2)	12		2		+1
	HL		UD		ML		
	4.17		1.75		2.31


O	NTO+MMH		Amines+Nitric	Hydrazine	Extremely Rich (Normal * 1.3)	24		2		+0
	MMH		AMA		HZ
	1.15		2.21		0


A	Kerolox		Hydrolox	NTO+Aerozine	Balanced (Normal)		4		2		+1
	KL		HL		AZ		
	2.29		5		1.59


N	LH2		LCH4		LNH3		N/A				48		2		+0
	NH		NM		NA		
	0		0		0

[AbeS]

If anyone is using RealEngines here is a fix to add kerosene instead of LF I posted a while ago:

@SFJackBauer

1- Nathan made LiquidFuel the stock one in MFS, and added Kerosene as a new fuel. That breaks one of your cfg!

Here is the modified cfg if anyone wants it (it only adds Kerosene where LiquidFuel is)

...

[Starwaster]

Nathan, what kind of batteries are we assuming to be in use?

NiMH? NiH2? Li-Ion?

And do KSP resource requests scale by time delta or if a module needs electricity is it just grabbing the amount that it's set to use every update? Do we know that?

[rottielover]

Which RCS thrusters are you using? Only the Squad RCS thrusters and the two rescales of the Squad quad in RO are modularized (and this is done in RO, since it's a config--you need one of the RO preview builds from the second post).

Stock RCS quad. Is the 4.1 fix what I need then?

[Starwaster]

Stock RCS quad. Is the 4.1 fix what I need then?

No it's a config file (.cfg)

Look at second post of this thread. Pick one of the two Realism Overhaul config files that are linked to.

[NathanKell]

AdmiralTigerclaw: It's only cfg changes. Which is why old engine cfgs that still reference LiquidFuel don't work quite right (viz. BobCat's Soviet Engines).

Let's see. The name is a Battletech reference and I was active on the Battletech forums for a while; I've also been involved in modding European Air War, Homeworld, Pirates of the Caribbean (the Build modpack), and First Eagles. Any of that ring a bell?

ChronicSilence: thanks! 1. J_Davis, Chestburster, and Starwaster are working on adding support for the various NTRs. There wasn't support for NTR techlevels until RFv4, so it's still in the early days. Also, radial boosters? Other than the solids, there's just the single liquid booster, right? And that should have a config in stockalikes and RftS. Am I missing others?

2. Only the stock RCS has modular configs as yet; I have to do the rest today. It was, basically, a feature I wrote because I was tired of bugfixing (midway through the v4 dev process) so it's very new. :]

3. I have to write support for multimode engines and ModuleEnginesFX. Since even though the classes [ModuleEngines and ModuleEngingesFX) are 99% identical, the latter doesn't inherit (argh) so there has to be separate support.

4. Thanks! I'll look into it.

5. They don't have TLs by design--just as SFJackBauer's RealEngines don't. Techlevels are for simulating an engine family; those engines are simulating a single particular model with defined stats. I do need to make a patch to convert them to Kerosene though.

xZise: there really isn't a "common fuels" list, as the post below mentions even for stockalike configs. Yes, you do need to edit persistent.sfs (sorry).

Zander: fixed.

Starwaster: silver-oxide IIRC. I based battery performance off Ranger 6. (I planned, and still plan, to make a plugin that will change stats based on nodes researched, aka "generalized techlevels," so high-end batteries could be simulated too).

Resource requests (excepting the broken ModuleGenerator) occur on fixedupdate and will scale by deltaTime IIRC. I believe all resource rates in cfg files are given in per-second figures (unless they're for things with Isps, obviously, and excepting the broken ModuleGenerator, which is broken).

J_Davis: neat! A few suggestions if I might:

First, everything I've read suggests the lean/rich dichotomy is the opposite of that: vacuum engines (with high expansion ratios) run leaner than sea-level engines. (Only counterexample I've found: Titan.) Also, even sea-level engines tend to run a little lean, especially staged combustion ones, and hydrolox engines *always* run lean since you gain more in density than you lose in efficiency (the range of mixtures for hydrolox is about 5.7 to 6.3 IIRC).

Second, I'd recommend swapping NTO/AZ50 for HTP/Kero for aerospikes, since the latter is often proposed (though IMO wrongly ) for SSTOs.

Third, if you want additional flexibility it's pretty trivial to add support for fourth or fifth or...etc. configs.

(Fourth: what did you think about only using UDMH, not MMH or AZ50? That might make it less confusing, but also less interesting...)

[ChronicSilence]

Also, radial boosters? Other than the solids, there's just the single liquid booster, right? And that should have a config in stockalikes and RftS. Am I missing others?

The ones that are missing EngineConfig modules are pretty much every part in the NovaPunch "AuxAndRadialEngines" folder. Many of these are solids, but you usually have EngineConfig modules for solids as well (like the Globe I SRB). There is also more than one liquid radial engine though:

- "Radial Liquid Booster"

- "Radial Large Liquid Booster"

- "SAS-2 Vernier Pod"

And none of them seem to have EngineConfig modules (they all use LiquidFuel), and I'm using the RftS config.

One other bug to note (this one to do with RealismOverhaul), you may want to check out your rescale factor (or whatever is causing this) for the "Globe X4 (3M)" and the "Globe X3 (3M)". They're more like 10m instead of 3m, and they're taller than the entire VAB

[NathanKell]

1. Ah, ok. Yep, RftS doesn't use those at the moment (will when I get to it). But stockalikes should--J_Davis, Chestburster...?

2. Argh, Kyle and Winston changed the scaling of them so my old patch in RftS doesn't work. Fixed for next release.

[Starwaster]

Re: batteries / resource requests. Pretty much only asking because of electric usage.

Also, I haven't seen much mention of BobCat's AmericanPack and no config entries for them. So I've started work on a set of configs for them unless someone speaks up and says something like, "Oh hey, yeah I've got those right here."

(primary motivation being: Copernicus MTV Components)

Edited January 5, 2014 by Starwaster

[NathanKell]

Starwaster: ModuleGenerator operates on Update, not FixedUpdate, so it's broken (especally under warp), but the other stuff should be ok more or less.

I don't recall whether Dragon01 has been working on that or not. Check?

Oh, and a BIG OOPS. I forgot a rather important piece of the changelog:

*Now when you cut thrust, thrust is actually cut: min thrust goes to 0 for all engines (if the throttle is even 1% above 0, however, then minthrust will remain normal). This is so you can "cut off" engines without disabling them (i.e. by hitting x, or whatever your 0 throttle key is) and for MJ/KER/etc compatibility.

This means if you throttle to 0 (or if you disengage MJ's autopilot or go out of comm range in RT2, both of which do that), then your engine will go to 0 thrust and EngineIgnitor will treat it as shut down, requiring reignition. This is per request and fixes some compatibility issues, but be careful you don't cause trouble by cutting the engine off and then not being able to reignite it.

[Chestburster]

1. Ah, ok. Yep, RftS doesn't use those at the moment (will when I get to it). But stockalikes should--J_Davis, Chestburster...?.

Stockalike will have all of them included. I'm downloading and checking all of the popular mods to make sure no engine is missed. But give me some time to do it. I'm still not at home

[NathanKell]

No problem!

[rottielover]

No it's a config file (.cfg)

Look at second post of this thread. Pick one of the two Realism Overhaul config files that are linked to.

*Facepalm*. I have the stock alike configs. My engines work. The stock RCS ports don't (unless I only use Monoprop / as per my fist post about this). Never mind just forget I said anything.

[jrandom]

*Now when you cut thrust, thrust is actually cut: min thrust goes to 0 for all engines (if the throttle is even 1% above 0, however, then minthrust will remain normal). This is so you can "cut off" engines without disabling them (i.e. by hitting x, or whatever your 0 throttle key is) and for MJ/KER/etc compatibility.

Hooray! This is just fantastic.

[NathanKell]

rottielover: that's because the stockalikes config doesn't change RCS. I presumed the target audience of stockalike engines would want to stick with MonoPropellant, and the modularizing of RCS I did (for Realism Overhaul) also changes their thrust and mass, which is decidedly not stockalike behavior. I can add RCS changes to stockalikes if people want, I guess?

[NathanKell]

OK, I have put up a poll regarding what you want in engine configs. Please answer it.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/64965

[rottielover]

rottielover: that's because the stockalikes config doesn't change RCS. I presumed the target audience of stockalike engines would want to stick with MonoPropellant, and the modularizing of RCS I did (for Realism Overhaul) also changes their thrust and mass, which is decidedly not stockalike behavior. I can add RCS changes to stockalikes if people want, I guess?

Thank you thank you thank you. That's ALL I wanted to know.

[rottielover]

My apologys if anyone was offended. I just hit a point of super frustration.

I've been working on an Apollo style lander using stock parts, but wanted to use real fuels because there seems to be no way in the stock game to make it anywhere close to the specs I found on Wikipedia without it.

[Eadrom]

I've also been involved in modding...Homeworld

You win all of my Internets! Favorite RTS of all time. Ever.

[rottielover]

Perhapse I should be using one of the other engine configs anyway. Based on the descriptions given I thought the stock alike configs is what I wanted, but now I'm thinking the reaching for the stars pack might be the one... This will take experimentation.

[Starwaster]

Perhapse I should be using one of the other engine configs anyway. Based on the descriptions given I thought the stock alike configs is what I wanted, but now I'm thinking the reaching for the stars pack might be the one... This will take experimentation.

Suggestion, if you have the disk space, do multiple installations.

[J_Davis]

Nathan, "Realistic Stockalike Engines (keep thrust and role the same, change rest)" seems to be the most popular a.t.m, which is good for me, as that'd been my stockalike goal. Hence why I don't like using only one hypergolic set for all engines. I think more than three options isn't needed though. A main config, alternate config, and hypergolic config seems good to me. I'll have to look more into the mixes, I may have had it backwards, though I could've sworn I read somewhere about how the S-II had to switch mixes from lean to rich as it left the atmosphere to maximize the available dV.

I have to say, being able to change fuels on the RCS quads would be preferable to me. I like my stockalike with real names and choices, down with "Monopropellant" and "Liquid Fuel"! Heck, I'd like SRB fuel choices too, if we get around to it.

I have a working v4 config I'm using ATM to test, it only supports stock engines and KW, does not change NTRs, and the SRBs still feel odd to me, but if people want to give it a try I will link it here.

---

Perhapse I should be using one of the other engine configs anyway. Based on the descriptions given I thought the stock alike configs is what I wanted, but now I'm thinking the reaching for the stars pack might be the one... This will take experimentation.

Ah, the problem with that is that it does the rescale for an Earth-Like Kerbin.

Edited January 6, 2014 by J_Davis

[HoneyFox]

rottielover: that's because the stockalikes config doesn't change RCS. I presumed the target audience of stockalike engines would want to stick with MonoPropellant, and the modularizing of RCS I did (for Realism Overhaul) also changes their thrust and mass, which is decidedly not stockalike behavior. I can add RCS changes to stockalikes if people want, I guess?

I don't know if it's only me, but as a user of stock-alike engine config, my idea is: don't change too much to the original game-play. Providing more options however is always welcomed. i.e. don't change the default propellant RCS ports use, but provide configs using other types of propellents in the RCS port's configuration dialog.

And to make those options like "Hydrazine" attractive, since they are tougher to use (not transferring through ALL_VESSEL), you can give some advantages (like higher Isp, higher max thrust, part being lighter etc.) to it, or nerf the MonoPropellant mode a bit also.

Plus, if you can make RCS port thrust tweakable that would be even better, especially when satellites need real small thrust to accurately adjust its orbit. (Though this was already doable by my TP plugin, but i guess that MFS will call RCS port's Load() right after the flight starts, so the thrust value tweaked by TP plugin might be overwritten again)

Edited January 6, 2014 by HoneyFox