[1.8+] Real Fuels

[ThorBeorn]

..Aaand I'm back again. Still the game stops loading when it comes to "proceduralSRBRealFuels".

This is what the MM patch looks like now:

@PART[proceduralSRBRealFuels]:FINAL
{
	@MODULE[ModuleEngineConfigs]
	{
		@CONFIG[Normal]
		{
			curveResource = SolidFuel
			thrustCurve
			{
			key = 0.00 0.05
			key = 0.01 0.1
			key = 0.015 0.12
			key = 0.02 0.15
			key = 0.03 0.20
			key = 0.05 0.30
			key = 0.10 0.50
			key = 0.20 0.60
			key = 0.30 0.70
			key = 0.40 0.80
			key = 0.50 0.85
			key = 0.60 0.90
			key = 0.70 0.92
			key = 0.80 0.96
			key = 0.90 1.00
			key = 0.99 1.00
			key = 1.00 0.70

			}
		}
	}
}

Logs: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5qtyxq48z66xs54/KSP.log and https://www.dropbox.com/s/eogir10q15gz8ly/output_log.txt

[NathanKell]

ThorBeorn: I'm not sure where I stashed the version; that was an awful lot of PMs ago. >.>

Re: crash. Ok. That *might* be an RF issue. I will check.

woahprettyricky: make sure you're using the *updated* Engine Ignitor. Nuke your existing copy and download fresh.

[woahprettyricky]

I am using the latest, to my knowledge. Last night I deleted RF and EngineIgnitor, got them fresh from their respective threads, and same problem right after. I did however, on a whim, try the Procedural Parts SRB and it worked out okay, so maybe it's just the KW solids that are affected?

[RedAV8R]

ThorBeorn: I'm not sure where I stashed the version; that was an awful lot of PMs ago. >.>

I wouldn't be too concerned about the FusTek, I had to rescale it again when we converted RO to using real docking ports. Since everything in FusTek is scaled to match the Docking Ports, changing docking ports = changing everything else so it wouldn't look funny.

[mecki]

mecki: if the tank type (which is shown on that info dump, at the top) is listed as Cryogenic, BalloonCryo, or ServiceModule, it has insulation.

I still don't see where this would be…

Whe I right-click one of the stock fuel tanks, I read:

Fuel Tanks

Modular Fuel Tank:

MaxVolume: 500L Tank can

hold:

Liquid Oxygen (requires

insulation)

Kerosene

LiquidH2 (requires insulation)

N2O2

…

[NathanKell]

That's weird. It used to say. I'll fix that.

[drmag]

I'm having trouble getting the mod to work; I'm trying to use MKS, Karbonite, TAC Life Support, and RealFuels. When I put a stock tank on, the GUI shows only the following available:

Liquid Fuel
Oxidizer
MonoPropellant
XenonGas
Food
Water
Oxygen
Waste
WasteWater
CarbonDioxide
Karbonite

No Kerosene. With other modules, like Firespitter, I only get LF, Ox, MP, and Xe.

Unfortunately, it does modify the Firespitter engines to require Kerosene, which is never available to me, so I can't use it.

This is in KSP_x64; is there a bug in the x64, or am I missing something on how to install this?

Edited August 12, 2014 by drmag

[NathanKell]

This sounds like an installation issue. Remove your RealFuels folder, download fresh, extract the RealFuels folder in the zip to KSP/GameData, and try again.

[drmag]

Thanks; that actually helped. I tested a clean installation and was able to figure out that the problem was a conflict between Real Fuels and Modular Fuel Tanks; it's not really clear from the descriptions of the two that they're not supposed to be coupled. In any case, I've got it working now!

[RedAV8R]

it's not really clear from the descriptions of the two that they're not supposed to be coupled. In any case, I've got it working now!

Yep you are right it's not clear they are not supposed to be used together.

Oh wait...

First two sentences of the OP for RealFuels...pay close attention to the second. I'll bold it so you don't miss it.

The previous Modular Fuel System has split into Modular Fuel Tanks (taken care of by taniwha; for all your stock-resource modular-tank needs) and Real Fuels (by me, modular tanks and engines using real resources). Use one OR the other.

I understand, you are new here, but let this be a lesson for you and everybody else. It pays to read.

[AlmightyR]

Seems RealFuels and TweakScale are conflicting...Again...

TweakScale works fine on it's own...RealFuels work fine on it's own...But when both are together, the tanks' volumes don't scale with their parts...

And before you ask, yes, I have literally just downloaded them both again, and tested on a clean KSP install with no other mods (except the ModuleManager.2.2.2.dll, which is required)...

[RedAV8R]

Until NK, taniwha, and biotronic get together and agree on course of action...the problem lies with TweakScale_RealFuels.dll and TweakScale_ModularFuelTanks.dll the interface between TweakScale and RealFuels/MFT. At this point it is a part of TweakScale, but any update to RF or MFT requires biotronic to release a new version of TweakScale pointing to the new RF/MFT. So either peacefully ask NK and taniwha to accept the pull request and assume responsibility of the problem, or peacefully ask Biotronic to release a new version of TS pointing to the new RF or MFT.

[samroberts]

All of my tanks work fine but none of the engines are configurable. I have reinstalled and nothing changed. I looked through the files and there are no .cfg's for engines.

[NathanKell]

Biotronic PM'd me about it; as of the next version of RF, RF itself will ship with that dll (so it can always be compiled against the right RF), and the dll will be compiled against an unchanging interface dll in TweakScale. So that should fix things.

[Starwaster]

All of my tanks work fine but none of the engines are configurable. I have reinstalled and nothing changed. I looked through the files and there are no .cfg's for engines.

That's because you didn't install one of the engine configs. Go back to the first page and read. There are links to the engine configs in the second post.

[spacepilot]

I have the same Problem: All my solid boosters show up with "Engine State: Invalid". And once they are started, they won't run out of fuel: Though the fuelscale reading reaches eventually zero, the boosters just keep running at their full power forever.

Every Mod is up to date: Real Fuels v7.3 and Engine Ignitor v3.3. (From the Engine Ignitor archive I didn't install any of those "extract to use"-zips, because it is written that when used together with Real Fuels, one doesn't have to.)

Is there a fix to the mentioned Problem?

I believed the problem I have was to do with Engine Ignitor, but another mention of a similar problem led me here so I figured I'd cross-post just incase.

I'm having an issue with all my solid boosters showing up with "Engine State: Invalid" when they fire. They are either producing no thrust at all, or not as much as they're supposed to be. This stage was supposed to have 1.2 SLT, but as you can see it shows .90 when fired, as if it was just firing my liquid fueled engines.

I'm using all of RO/RSS recommended (not RftS), and a couple additional, and this is the only problem I've noticed apart from intermittent crashes that I can't reproduce, which figure are just due to x64 being a bit unstable still.

PICS:http://imgur.com/a/Q2yZ8

LOG:https://www.dropbox.com/s/hkcdu0ldf2...output_log.txt

[HoneyFox]

I have the same Problem: All my solid boosters show up with "Engine State: Invalid". And once they are started, they won't run out of fuel: Though the fuelscale reading reaches eventually zero, the boosters just keep running at their full power forever.

Every Mod is up to date: Real Fuels v7.3 and Engine Ignitor v3.3. (From the Engine Ignitor archive I didn't install any of those "extract to use"-zips, because it is written that when used together with Real Fuels, one doesn't have to.)

Is there a fix to the mentioned Problem?

I had "Engine State: Invalid" as well for all the SRBs, but they will run out of fuel so the "State: Invalid" not on my high-priority fix list.

For the thrust not as much as they're supposed to be, it's the thrust curve feature for SRBs. You should re-DL the latest RO configs from Github since RedAV8R is busy updating the curve according to RL SRBs these days.(see latest posts in RO thread)

Is it because your launch clamps are refueling the SRBs? I know it's weird to state that solid fuel can be refueled". but... you should try actually launch the rocket and see if SRBs will exhaust their propellant.

Edited August 20, 2014 by HoneyFox

[spacepilot]

Thanks for the info! I installed the latest configs from Github and that fixed the problem - the SRB will now run out of fuel once airborne. (I didn't check if the problem still occurs with the older files).

Cheers!

I had "Engine State: Invalid" as well for all the SRBs, but they will run out of fuel so the "State: Invalid" not on my high-priority fix list.

For the thrust not as much as they're supposed to be, it's the thrust curve feature for SRBs. You should re-DL the latest RO configs from Github since RedAV8R is busy updating the curve according to RL SRBs these days.(see latest posts in RO thread)

Is it because your launch clamps are refueling the SRBs? I know it's weird to state that solid fuel can be refueled". but... you should try actually launch the rocket and see if SRBs will exhaust their propellant.

[ABZB]

Where can I find a guide/documentation on the engineconfig module?

[DracovaXIV]

I have a question about the mod's features: does high-test peroxide decay inside the fuel tanks the way it's supposed to? LOX and LH boil away, but is there a similar mechanism in place for HTP?

[NathanKell]

ABZB: Second post, download calcs.xls: the docs page there will explain most stuff.

DracovaXIV: no, right now peroxide decay is not modeled.

[DracovaXIV]

no, right now peroxide decay is not modeled.

I see. Is this something that is hard-coded into the plugin, or can it be tweaked through configurations?

I had this question come up because I've written up some elementary RF engine configs which use HTP, and read up on it. http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/60853-0-23-5-Alchemy-Technologies-products-v02?p=1363582&viewfull=1#post1363582

[Starwaster]

I see. Is this something that is hard-coded into the plugin, or can it be tweaked through configurations?

I had this question come up because I've written up some elementary RF engine configs which use HTP, and read up on it. http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/60853-0-23-5-Alchemy-Technologies-products-v02?p=1363582&viewfull=1#post1363582

It's just not modeled, not in the plugin code or in configs.

You could simulate it by assigning a loss_rate and temperature in its TANK node.

i.e.

@TANK_DEFINITION[Default]
{
	@TANK[HTP]
	{
		temperature = 0
		loss_rate = 0.0000000001
	}
}

I have no idea what the temperature would be (probably higher than 0) and the loss_rate is the same value as for LiquidOxygen. It's the amount lost per second (scaled by delta time) and I think loss_rate also depends on how much actual part temperature is over the tank's temperature rating.

Obviously it's not actually decomposing into other compounds, it's just 'lost'.

[DracovaXIV]

Thanks for letting me know that I could write something like that in the configurations! I wasn't aware of a loss_rate argument.

I guess I could leave it alone for now, since it inadvertently simulates mass loss, and besides - unlike H2 or O2, it doesn't just undergo a reversible thermal fluid/gas state change, it actually chemically reacts away. It's already got comparative advantages with hydrazine: less efficient, but with more thrust. Peroxide is supposed to be able to decay at any temperature (obviously, heat accelerates the process; actually, I'm wondering now if one could make the value a formula - e.g. loss_rate = temperature * x). It's thermodynamically unstable. It can also be catalyzed into decaying. Plus, what's interesting is that it decays into water and oxygen (2H2O2 >>> O2 + 2H2O), which means that a tank filled with peroxide can be turned into a tank partially filled with drinkable water and a pocket of oxygen. That has some interesting implications for manned spaceflight: you could have a fuel tank which is mostly used for a, let's say, transplanetary injection burn, and then you catalyze the remnant of the fuel; afterwards, the crew could open up a hatch and enter the tank, "wet workshop" style. The oxygen is breathable and the water is drinkable.

[NathanKell]

The value *is* a formula, or rather part of one: boiloff (in units/sec) = loss_rate * (part temp - desired temp) * maxAmount (of that resource)

Example: desired temp = -183 C; part temperature = -182C; tank of 1000 units of LOX; loss per second will be loss_rate * 1000

Alas right now there's no support for modeling *change* rather than boiloff...