[1.8+] Real Fuels

[JordanL]

Is there some zero boil-off device for LH2?(Or maybe planned for future?) I'd like to use it for long missions.

The pressurized cryo tanks boil off about 2 billionths of a unit of LH2 per second.

[Sparker]

I lose about all of my LH2 in about 200 days or so(I don't remember exactly), it's inaffordable for a Mars mission. Good news is that i've found a thermal fin part with RealFuels and it really helps to pump out heat from the tank. Unfortunately i need about 3 of them per ~6 tons of LH2, so i'll have to rescale it(or find some mod for cryogenic equipment).

[Starwaster]

I lose about all of my LH2 in about 200 days or so(I don't remember exactly), it's inaffordable for a Mars mission. Good news is that i've found a thermal fin part with RealFuels and it really helps to pump out heat from the tank. Unfortunately i need about 3 of them per ~6 tons of LH2, so i'll have to rescale it(or find some mod for cryogenic equipment).

If you also use TweakScale, scale it up with that. I set it up so that it scales up its heat removal.

Errr at least I think I did... Actually I might not have pushed that to the latest update. (you are talking about the zzz radiator right? or no?)

[lurkoholic]

Sparker, Did you test for zero boil off on Kerbin/Earth or in deep space? I'm pretty sure boiloff is higher in low orbit and much higher on the ground due to higher ambient temperature. Due to testing on the ground, my old LH2 interplanetary stages had an excessive number of fins and looked kinda like giant RTGs...

[JordanL]

I lose about all of my LH2 in about 200 days or so(I don't remember exactly), it's inaffordable for a Mars mission. Good news is that i've found a thermal fin part with RealFuels and it really helps to pump out heat from the tank. Unfortunately i need about 3 of them per ~6 tons of LH2, so i'll have to rescale it(or find some mod for cryogenic equipment).

I suppose you could get the liquid nitrogen active coolers from FreeThinker.

[Raptor831]

I think there should be a line added the to Parts Gui which explicitly tell you what type Tank it is, if you allow me I can add this (to ModuleFuelTank) as well..

I really want to say there has to be something that lets you know what kind of tank you're using, but I don't recall. Adding it to the right-click menu shouldn't be too hard though. IIRC from the last time I messed with plugins, it should be a variable you can access and display in that menu.

[Sparker]

If you also use TweakScale, scale it up with that. I set it up so that it scales up its heat removal.

Errr at least I think I did... Actually I might not have pushed that to the latest update. (you are talking about the zzz radiator right? or no?)

No, i meant these radiators:

Do you mean radiators from Interstellar mod? I'll check them, thanks.

Sparker, Did you test for zero boil off on Kerbin/Earth or in deep space? I'm pretty sure boiloff is higher in low orbit and much higher on the ground due to higher ambient temperature. Due to testing on the ground, my old LH2 interplanetary stages had an excessive number of fins and looked kinda like giant RTGs...

No, i tested it at quite a high orbit, about 30,000 km.

I suppose you could get the liquid nitrogen active coolers from FreeThinker.

Thank you, i will check them too!

[Northstar1989]

Speaking of the zzz radiators, have they been coded to also double as KSP-Interstellar radiators as well?

Logically, it would only make sense for the heat systems to all be integrated. In real life, it makes no difference to a fuel tank whether the heat comes from thermal leakage into the spacecraft, or waste heat from an onboard nuclear reactor (which might actually be a real life difficulty factor with nuclear rockets- the cryogenic fuel they rely upon does not like being stored at high temperatures, but nuclear reactors produce a lot of excess heat... Oh well, one more reason to use Microwave Thermal rockets- which only produce heat when power is being actively beamed at the spacecraft- I guess...)

Regards,

Northstar

[lurkoholic]

No, i meant these radiators:

http://i.imgur.com/2SDBSuY.png

Do you mean radiators from Interstellar mod? I'll check them, thanks.

There's one included with RealFuels now that also functions as a heat pump. It's the same model as the one in Interstellar, but it's dark blue (black?) instead of red.

Northstar1989, Wouldn't it be better to still have a separate heat removal system for the reactor/generator since higher temperature radiators would radiate more heat?

If the reactors/generators have increased temperature in-game (even when most waste heat is radiated), that would heat adjacent fuel tanks.

Edited January 29, 2015 by lurkoholic

[Starwaster]

Speaking of the zzz radiators, have they been coded to also double as KSP-Interstellar radiators as well?

Logically, it would only make sense for the heat systems to all be integrated. In real life, it makes no difference to a fuel tank whether the heat comes from thermal leakage into the spacecraft, or waste heat from an onboard nuclear reactor (which might actually be a real life difficulty factor with nuclear rockets- the cryogenic fuel they rely upon does not like being stored at high temperatures, but nuclear reactors produce a lot of excess heat... Oh well, one more reason to use Microwave Thermal rockets- which only produce heat when power is being actively beamed at the spacecraft- I guess...)

Regards,

Northstar

No because I don't use Interstellar and am not familiar with its modules and configuring them for Interstellar in Real Fuels is out of scope for this mod.

Lurkoholic says that they're the same as the ones in Interstellar. I didn't know that; zzz released the panels as public domain so we used them for RF.

[chrisl]

I'm playing a very early stage career mode and I keep encountering an issue where MechJeb tells me my rocket is under (well under in many cases) 18t, but I won't be able to launch because KSP says the rocket is more then 18t. Is this a known issue and, short of constantly building my rockets from scratch, is there a work around?

[lurkoholic]

I'm playing a very early stage career mode and I keep encountering an issue where MechJeb tells me my rocket is under (well under in many cases) 18t, but I won't be able to launch because KSP says the rocket is more then 18t. Is this a known issue and, short of constantly building my rockets from scratch, is there a work around?

If you've unlocked launch clamps, you can remove part of the fuel in the VAB, and fill them on the launch pad by right clicking on the clamps and turning the pumps on.

Doesn't it make more sense that the crawler would hit it's weight limit before the launch pad anyway?

[NathanKell]

lurkoholic: you're making sense. Stop making sense. SOKERBAL!

chrisl: as I mentioned, known issue. taniwha's gotten some other bugs sorted so I just need to fix this if he hasn't yet, and we'll be good.

[Starwaster]

lurkoholic: you're making sense. Stop making sense. SOKERBAL!

Wait wait wait... so rockets AREN'T transported with hundreds of thousands of liters worth of propellants to the launch pad????

[Northstar1989]

No because I don't use Interstellar and am not familiar with its modules and configuring them for Interstellar in Real Fuels is out of scope for this mod.

Lurkoholic says that they're the same as the ones in Interstellar. I didn't know that; zzz released the panels as public domain so we used them for RF.

So... Should we add a MM patch to the KSPI_RF config file such as to allow the RealFuels radiators to double as KSP-I radiators when both KSP-I and RealFuels are installed?

It would be a relatively simple process, and myself and FreeThinker (if I haven't worn him out as well with all the tweaks that have been required with adding Propulsive Fluid Accumulators and Nitrogen/CO2 electric/thermal propulsion to KSP-Interstellar) would probably be more than happy to help come up with a MM patch for this...

Also, nice catch on how to utilize (exploit?) the Launch Clamp pumps there, lurkoholic! It didn't occur to me that I could do that. As I am consistently running up against problems with my mass-limit on the Level 2 Launchpad (I am also using RealFuels 64K, so I need some really big rockets- and RSS 64K doesn't touch the mass-limits at all), I'll have to give this a try...

Regards,

Northstar

[NathanKell]

RSS *can't* touch the mass limits, because Squad hardcoded it.

[Northstar1989]

RSS *can't* touch the mass limits, because Squad hardcoded it.

Darn.

Also, some more lines of code that need "&" replaced with "," (if I am understanding this correctly- they're not working in 0.90 with the "&" symbol anyhow...)

//Add water tank using KSPI water. (TO-DO: integration with TACLS water without trampling KSPI or TACLS)
@TANK_DEFINITION[*]:HAS[@TANK[Kerosene]&!TANK[LqdWater]]:NEEDS[WarpPlugin]:FOR[RealFuels]
{
	+TANK[Kerosene]
	{
		@name = LqdWater
	}
}

//Add Argon to all tanks that have XenonGas, as they function & store similarly.
@TANK_DEFINITION[*]:HAS[@TANK[XenonGas]&!TANK[Argon]]:NEEDS[WarpPlugin]:FOR[RealFuels]
{
	+TANK[XenonGas]
	{
		@name = Argon
	}
}

This code comes from the KSPI_RF config file.

Given how widespread this problem seems to be, it might be worth searching the entire RealFuels code for any use of "&" in any of the files, and fixing it now so that we don't keep getting a trickle of bug reports about it...

Regards,

Northstar

[chrisl]

If you've unlocked launch clamps, you can remove part of the fuel in the VAB, and fill them on the launch pad by right clicking on the clamps and turning the pumps on.

Doesn't it make more sense that the crawler would hit it's weight limit before the launch pad anyway?

Thanks. I'll give that a try.

lurkoholic: you're making sense. Stop making sense. SOKERBAL!

chrisl: as I mentioned, known issue. taniwha's gotten some other bugs sorted so I just need to fix this if he hasn't yet, and we'll be good.

I justed wanted my question posted to the correct forum. Plus, this way lurkoholic was able to give me a workaround.

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe I'm just blinde but I picked up the "RV-025" RCS block which I've been using on a couple of my early flights in the RSS game I'm playing. By default they want to use Hydrazine for their default fuel. Thing is, I can't seem to find Hydrazine in list when I'm setting up a fuel tank. I've just been using HTP and changing the RCS block to use that, but should Hydrazine be on the fuel list? Or is it maybe a fuel that appears later in career mode?

[Raptor831]

Maybe I'm just blinde but I picked up the "RV-025" RCS block which I've been using on a couple of my early flights in the RSS game I'm playing. By default they want to use Hydrazine for their default fuel. Thing is, I can't seem to find Hydrazine in list when I'm setting up a fuel tank. I've just been using HTP and changing the RCS block to use that, but should Hydrazine be on the fuel list? Or is it maybe a fuel that appears later in career mode?

Hydrazine needs a ServiceModule or RCS tank. Normal Default tanks don't carry it.

[undercoveryankee]

Darn.

Also, some more lines of code that need "&" replaced with "," (if I am understanding this correctly- they're not working in 0.90 with the "&" symbol anyhow...)

Given how widespread this problem seems to be, it might be worth searching the entire RealFuels code for any use of "&" in any of the files, and fixing it now so that we don't keep getting a trickle of bug reports about it...

Fuller explanation of the "&" issue: In ModuleManager 2 before 2.5.7, you could use "&" or "," synonymously to join tests. 2.5.7 removed the special significance of the "&" so MM could address science definitions containing the literal string "R&D". ModuleManager doesn't make changes that break existing patches often, but Squad kind of forced the issue by using "R&D" in places that were otherwise MM-able.

[chrisl]

Hydrazine needs a ServiceModule or RCS tank. Normal Default tanks don't carry it.

Ah. There it is. Thanks.

[Northstar1989]

Fuller explanation of the "&" issue: In ModuleManager 2 before 2.5.7, you could use "&" or "," synonymously to join tests. 2.5.7 removed the special significance of the "&" so MM could address science definitions containing the literal string "R&D". ModuleManager doesn't make changes that break existing patches often, but Squad kind of forced the issue by using "R&D" in places that were otherwise MM-able.

So... Can we get about fixing all the files that this broke in RealFuels then?

Regards,

Northstar

[Raptor831]

So... Can we get about fixing all the files that this broke in RealFuels then?

Regards,

Northstar

There was only one file that I found that was affected in RealFuels. Looks like it's already been taken care of in the repository, so you can download from there.

[Northstar1989]

There was only one file that I found that was affected in RealFuels. Looks like it's already been taken care of in the repository, so you can download from there.

Wait, so the KSPI_RF file (the one that was just pointed out before) is the *ONLY* ModuleManager file to use the "&" symbol?

Regards,

Northstar

[Starwaster]

Wait, so the KSPI_RF file (the one that was just pointed out before) is the *ONLY* ModuleManager file to use the "&" symbol?

Regards,

Northstar

Yes. Historically, the comma was used to chain multiple conditionals together. The '&' was added more recently (comparatively speaking) a few months back. Only that one file ever used it.