Chaka Monkey - Closed Development Thread

[DasBananenbrot]

Ermagherd

[YANFRET]

Ermagherd

Like O mg!

[BLUAV8R]

*JAWDROP ACTIVATE*

lol

[techstepman]

got really confused cause I read too many posts...will this be released or is it already out?the pics were so awesome that I forgot what I read about.from all those pics and progress updates is it safe to assume that all original mod creators have given permission for the release of this pack?well basicly what im asking is:is this really for real?cause the textures and everything else look like they came from my dreams!

[kyle.mk.howard]

What other changes do you make to the KOSMOS engines beside scaling them up? Looks great

[YANFRET]

What other changes do you make to the KOSMOS engines beside scaling them up? Looks great

You mean the little radial ones on the landers? They are so excellent. I asked CBBP to license some of the Kosmos parts to us partly because those are the best radial engines around in my opinion. They are used in three capacities in this system. Each has dark textures but retains the original NRM. Each size has adjusted performance CFG as appropriate. The engines land all rovers and habitats on Duna in this system because they are extremely flexible, predictable, and easy to control for landing. * The surface return lander uses Laztek Dragon engines because the base of that lander is very large for stability, and the dragon engines should have a better areo profile and also fit more tighly in the LV fairing so that it looks pretty on the pad.

Licensed non radial Kosmos engines are also used for Orion service module and planned for use on TALUS upper stage. Really high quality things in the KOSMOS pack.

got really confused cause I read too many posts...will this be released or is it already out?the pics were so awesome that I forgot what I read about.from all those pics and progress updates is it safe to assume that all original mod creators have given permission for the release of this pack?well basicly what im asking is:is this really for real?cause the textures and everything else look like they came from my dreams!

Um okay so it's real but development on hold because I'm remodeling my house and I need to finish that quickly.

Edited January 28, 2014 by YANFRET

[XNerd_Bomber]

Are the rocket textures going to be based on the Ares rockets, or the SLS? (please be SLS)

Also, besides the orion capsule, have you released any more textures?

[YANFRET]

Are the rocket textures going to be based on the Ares rockets, or the SLS? (please be SLS)

Block II SLS. Understand that the SLS core stage will not be white, they just show it that way in the graphics "as an inspirational reference to Apollo" and also to differentiate it from Ares. There is no way whatsoever that it will be white, ask anyone at KSC they will tell you. It will be orange like Chaka's fur.

Also, besides the orion capsule, have you released any more textures?

Yes

[XNerd_Bomber]

Block II SLS. Understand that the SLS core stage will not be white, they just show it that way in the graphics "as an inspirational reference to Apollo" and also to differentiate it from Ares. There is no way whatsoever that it will be white, ask anyone at KSC they will tell you. It will be orange like Chaka's fur.

I understand that the real life counterpart will not actually be white, because of both the weight of the paint, and cost. I just think the concept images look really awesome.

[YANFRET]

I understand that the real life counterpart will not actually be white, because of both the weight of the paint, and cost. I just think the concept images look really awesome.

For now we're using a modified Bobcat Ares core stage as a stand in, there are obvious differences between that compromise and the most recent SLS reference, however the bobcat part is now very well understood within the greater context of this system and I have it tweaked very specifically so making any change there would be somewhat fundamental. Aditionally it's obvious that the design reference we have today is not neccecarily the final version of SLS so there's room for speculation and artistic license there I think.

Some day they may finish that SLS WIP and then we can take a look at working with them as well.

Edited January 28, 2014 by YANFRET

[Deathsoul097]

Isn't the SLS is basically just an Ares V with lower payload capacity? That's what it looks and sounds like to me. AFAIK, Ares V and SLS have the same first stage engines (IIRC the ones used for the Delta IV first stage?), use the J-2 for the second stage, both stages will be hydrolox, and both use the 5 segment version of the shuttle SRBs as boosters. So to me it sounds like the exact same rocket, just with lower payload capacity. (I understand that they plan on manrating and creaing a smaller variant for crew, and that there will probably a horde of minute differences, but still...)

[YANFRET]

Isn't the SLS is basically just an Ares V with lower payload capacity? That's what it looks and sounds like to me. AFAIK, Ares V and SLS have the same first stage engines (IIRC the ones used for the Delta IV first stage?), use the J-2 for the second stage, both stages will be hydrolox, and both use the 5 segment version of the shuttle SRBs as boosters. So to me it sounds like the exact same rocket, just with lower payload capacity. (I understand that they plan on manrating and creaing a smaller variant for crew, and that there will probably a horde of minute differences, but still...)

From a visual standpoint the design of the bottom is very different just because as time goes on they find new ways to optimize that. The core stage uses four SSME (RS25, yo) in the current design but it would make a lot of sense to migrate that to RS-68 (CBC as you said) in the future as soon as we use up the life cyles on all the RS25's on hand. Whoa, imagine what a 5 engine RS-68 core stage would sound like. That's exciting. I wonder if a version of that without SRB would be usefull for launching large things that don't weigh very much?

However, the thing to remember is that Ares V was really just a graphic they made, almost zero work went into making that. When we talk about money spent on constellation, we're 99% talking about Orion, Ares I, and the support stuff for that.

With SLS the difference is we're actually talking about making the 8.4 meter core stage and using Orion on it from the start. There are many reasons why that's actually kinda strange and if you want to get into that there is about 50,000 pages of discussion on this subject on the internet, some of which has substance.

My point is that the physical construction of SLS is firstly real rather than just a cartoon image and secondly new engineering from the ground up... it's not just the same machines that made ET it's all new, partly from new ideas about efficiency but also for logistic reasons down at Michoud.

The main confusion about the Block I system you see in the graphics is that, really, anywhere you could send an Orion capsule with that much power, you would also want some kind of hab or other eqipment module to go with you (Orion doesnt even have a toilet) .... and in the end wouldn't it be smarter to send orion up on a smaller booster and have it dock with something that the heavy launcher put in orbit?

So from that perspective the Ares system seems smarter, except fot the fact that the Ares I idea was a total failure and many of the systems that will go into the big SLS launcher are already well understood and easy to man-rate, so it's really more like the Jupiter system and Ares merged, with a big helping of compromise.

It's not perfect but at least it's funded!

For the Chaka system we are taking one giant leap over all that crap and going directly to the Block II SLS config with a large upper stage, advanced boosters and 130-160 MT LEO capacity, as would be invisioned for the mid 2030's. Once you get to that point, putting orion on the large booster is redundant and I'm using a bespoke 5 meter LV for putting Orion into orbit, kinda like the Ares platform, without the foolish Ares I SRB ideas.

The real world equivelant would be sending orion up un crewed inside the cargo payload fairing with other heavy stuff like a hab and then using commercial crew launchers to send the crew up to that whole system.

Edited January 28, 2014 by YANFRET

[Reddragon]

Isn't the SLS is basically just an Ares V with lower payload capacity? That's what it looks and sounds like to me. AFAIK, Ares V and SLS have the same first stage engines (IIRC the ones used for the Delta IV first stage?), use the J-2 for the second stage, both stages will be hydrolox, and both use the 5 segment version of the shuttle SRBs as boosters. So to me it sounds like the exact same rocket, just with lower payload capacity. (I understand that they plan on manrating and creaing a smaller variant for crew, and that there will probably a horde of minute differences, but still...)

Well, Ares V payload capacity to LEO was planned to be about 250kmx250km was 170-180mts which is incredible. Note, that SLS is a variety of launch vehicles and not a single design. Block I crew variant is of course to send the Orion MPCV to the Moon or beyond. Ares V was designed mainly to put Altair to LEO and be able to perform a TLI after Orion docked and at least a decade later for assembling MTV components maybe. Since the Moon is not a goal any more (because of the asteroid retrieval) SLS Block 2 is a more economical choice for any other payloads which wouldn't need a powerful launch vehicle as Ares V. Also there was little to no foreseeable economic security for Constellation after the return to moon anyway.

[YANFRET]

Well, Ares V payload capacity to LEO was planned to be about 250kmx250km was 170-180mts which is incredible. Note, that SLS is a variety of launch vehicles and not a single design. Block I crew variant is of course to send the Orion MPCV to the Moon or beyond. Ares V was designed mainly to put Altair to LEO and be able to perform a TLI after Orion docked and at least a decade later for assembling MTV components maybe. Since the Moon is not a goal any more (because of the asteroid retrieval) SLS Block 2 is a more economical choice for any other payloads which wouldn't need a powerful launch vehicle as Ares V. Also there was little to no foreseeable economic security for Constellation after the return to moon anyway.

Whoa hold on, let's remember that the propsed Ares V numbers were'nt just incredible, they were literally not credible. Ares V was a fantasy... at one point they even started talking about a 10 meter diameter core stage and all kinds of other unrealistic stuff. Also it turns out that the RS-68 cant handle the heat of the SRB. They were told to make a graphic of a launch vehicle that could do all that and they did but 188 mt to leo was never gonna work out on a realistic budget with those systems. You even get into structural load problems with the core stage. It's not like there was some perfect idea which was lost, it was more a political Eulogy to STS-107.

[Reddragon]

Whoa hold on, let's remember that the propsed Ares V numbers were'nt just incredible, they were literally not credible. Ares V was a fantasy... at one point they even started talking about a 10 meter diameter core stage and all kinds of other unrealistic stuff. Also it turns out that the RS-68 cant handle the heat of the SRB. They were told to make a graphic of a launch vehicle that could do all that and they did but 188 mt to leo was never gonna work out on a realistic budget with those systems. You even get into structural load problems with the core stage. It's not like there was some perfect idea which was lost, it was more a political Eulogy to STS-107.

That's true. i've read earlier that it was 'Apollo on steroids'. I think it meant the budget as well. First when I heard about Ares V I thought it's gonna lift a mass a Saturn V could maybe. When I heard the plan was 180mt I almost fell from my chair. Anyway I also have to congratulate you on the work you made on this mod. I tried the the Orion and it's working for me.

[Deathsoul097]

Aha. Thanks for clearing that up. (I knew the engine was named something along those lines, I just couldn't remember what.)

I didn't know he Ares I was a failure though. I have never heard that before. Did it exceed G-Limit on ascent, or was it just structurally unsound?

Hmm. With all of this I think my opinion on SLS is changing. I used to think it was a ridiculous waste of money, and that the Americans should be pursuing the Constellation program, but now, now I think differently. I still think the Constellation Program's general idea was the way to move forward, but now I understand the ridiculousness of what was actually being proposed.

Mars FTW!

[Reddragon]

I didn't know he Ares I was a failure though. I have never heard that before. Did it exceed G-Limit on ascent, or was it just structurally unsound?

As far as I remember Ares I-X had difficulties with rezonance at ascent and it also damaged the launch pad. Two parachutes also failed before first stage splashdown which made the the SRB a dent at the bottom. ATK planned to continue it under the name Liberty but NASA didn't chose it for the Commercial Crew Program.

[YANFRET]

That's true. i've read earlier that it was 'Apollo on steroids'. I think it meant the budget as well. First when I heard about Ares V I thought it's gonna lift a mass a Saturn V could maybe. When I heard the plan was 180mt I almost fell from my chair. Anyway I also have to congratulate you on the work you made on this mod. I tried the the Orion and it's working for me.

Thank you glad to hear Orion is getting some flight time. I should be able to put together a download for the Chaka Service Module

[YANFRET]

As far as I remember Ares I-X had difficulties with rezonance at ascent and it also damaged the launch pad. Two parachutes also failed before first stage splashdown which made the the SRB a dent at the bottom. ATK planned to continue it under the name Liberty but NASA didn't chose it for the Commercial Crew Program.

The list of issues with Ares I would wear out my keyboard. Everything you said is true but lets take a moment and dig a little deeper.

1) The vibration of the SRB on shuttle was balanced out to an extent because there were two of them and some structural flex between them and the crew cabin. When you only have one and you are bolted directly on top of it, you are riding a jack hammer.

2) The purpose of Ares I was increased safety because, in principle, the most dangerous parts of the shuttle system are eliminated. But wait a second, by using one SRB you are making it incredibly difficult to control, and relying 100% on a single motor which can't be turned off. Compare that with the falcon system using 9 merlins. Engine out? Gimble failure?

3) The upper stage motor would have to air start! You arent gonna get an upper stage out of the atmosphere with even a 5 segment SRB. So we're gonna put our lives on an air start of a J2X or RL-10 at mach ???

4) Guess how they man rated the 5 segment SRB as a core structural stage? By taking the structural rigidity requirements for man rating and putting them in the paper shredder. Remember your first kerbal rocket with like 5 tank segments as the core structure and you got half way out of the atmosphere and a resonance flex built up and you went spinning out of control? 5 Segment SRB.

5) The SSRB system was NEVER intended to be used as a core structural piece. Those things have a hard enough time staying together when they are strapped on, imagine a big heavy tank on top? It's like balancing a beer on 5 toilet paper rolls taped together.

6) Cost. Because of 1 thru 5 the development cost of the system from test to human flight would be so high relative to the flight rate that each launch would be more expensive than shuttle. So for the same price you might as well fly SLS, which by the way since SLS doesnt suffer from 1 thru 5 is safer anyway!

SLS = comparable price, more safety, more payload, you start to see why they felt like it was almost free. To heck with the fact that it's no better than shuttle from an equipment cost perspective, compared to how bad Ares I could have been it's a bargain.

7) Human rated EELV would be cheaper and better performing by huge margins (although the Senator from Utah might get pissed that people at ATK would have to get laid off).

Sorry for the rant but you know

Edited January 29, 2014 by YANFRET

[DasBananenbrot]

Thank you glad to hear Orion is getting some flight time. I should be able to put together a download for the Chaka Service Module

That would be nice I am glad to see you are still here and even release a bit from time to time althoug you probably much ony your back with RL right now . Thanks for everything

[MainSailor]

The list of issues with Ares I would wear out my keyboard. Everything you said is true but lets take a moment and dig a little deeper....

This is probably the best wrap up of all the issues the Ares program had. Most people don't understand that the SLS is functionally identical to what would have been called the Ares V (and the proposed, so-called Ares IV heavy crewed launcher) because most of the specs (engine selection, type of boosters, etc.) hadn't really been nailed down. Almost all of the development that had taken place was in the hardware to adapt the Shuttle SRB forward skirt for mounting the J-2 (or J-2X) interstage, and their (failed, dismal) attempts to dampen the POGO effect from the solid booster. Putting a manned capsule on top of a solid booster was patently ridiculous, and it's a shame it took them so long for rational thinking to come into play.

There's a case for using commercial EELV craft for launching the manned missions, but as the Orion test flight is going to show, even the largest EELV currently used (the Delta IV Heavy) doesn't have enough energy to launch the Orion stack to meet the mission profiles currently envisioned. Of course people are going to say, "well what about the SpaceX Falcon Heavy?", which is fine, but even that hasn't flown a single mission yet, and the base Falcon 9 hasn't (yet) been man-rated. Lockheed hasn't made any progress on man-rating the Atlas V because they're not going to spend private-industry dollars on a complicated process that might go to waste, even with the Atlas being selected to launch Dream Chaser. AFAIK there hasn't been progress on man-rating the Atlas V since late 2011, and they cancelled what would have been a multi-core, heavy lift version of Atlas anyhow.

[sojourner]

Point of note. The Falcon 9 was designed to be man rated from the beginning. Atlas V/Delta IV was not. It will be very easy for Falcon to complete it's man rating as opposed to the other two.

[MainSailor]

Point of note. The Falcon 9 was designed to be man rated from the beginning. Atlas V/Delta IV was not. It will be very easy for Falcon to complete it's man rating as opposed to the other two.

True. And the Falcon Heavy will at least have a demo flight this year. I don't know what the mass of a crewed Dragon would be...I wonder if it would be significantly heavier than the cargo version, and if the Falcon 9 1.1 could lift it into a useable orbit.

[YANFRET]

True. And the Falcon Heavy will at least have a demo flight this year. I don't know what the mass of a crewed Dragon would be...I wonder if it would be significantly heavier than the cargo version, and if the Falcon 9 1.1 could lift it into a useable orbit.

The way I understand things v1.1 enables orbital crewed dragon.

[Krevsin]

I understand that the v1.1 only increases the payload to orbit and makes the entire thing more streamlined and easier to manufacture at a faster rate. I haven't found any data concerning its (possible) man-rating, so I'd greatly appreciate any info you can spare.