researching optional upgrades for older technology at higher tier levels, possible?

[Fylas]

If this picture is too big I apologize but I couldn't find a way to properly write this down in a text file sorry. I'm a tad sight impaired (and the Pressure on Jool is only marginally higher then on Kerbal hue hue) so It might be a bit big.

Edit: the picture was a mess of ramblings of a person who hasn't slept in ages. I removed it and posted a revised text which is much easier on the eye on page 4 X_X

That's the kind of idea I had for upgrades and their variants. Some of them shift the performance of a large variety of parts in a specific direction, another replaces outdated materials with high tech ones with the kind of cost blow up you would only expect from black project super prototypes XD as well as those that integrate some things into other parts to a certain extend which has the nice side effect of saving drag and part count while the mass is about the same as simply adding the part. That kind of stuff. The examples concentrate on parts and craft alteration , not implementation or how Kerbals would be affected. Another example would be a specific upgrade pack like for the command pod MK1-2 being outfitted with a internal data transfer device (wifi? lol) and a copy of the basic sensor science modules like, thermometers, pressure sensors etc and maybe 1 goo with their weight, in return the huge amount of extra hardware takes so much space that the module removes 2 of the 3 seats turning the MK1-2 into a "almost all in one" science command module for a single Kerbal. I do not dare to declare how the 2 missing Kerbals would affect the weight increase though.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Fylas
giant mess

[JimmyAgent007]

What about a separate part that enhances another? Like an engine efficacy booster. Or Improved vacuum ISP booster. Its a separate part so we dont have to worry about share issues with other players and it would be easier to mod. People either did the research and have access to that part or they havent and cant launch the design as is.

[Fylas]

What about a separate part that enhances another? Like an engine efficacy booster. Or Improved vacuum ISP booster. Its a separate part so we dont have to worry about share issues with other players and it would be easier to mod. People either did the research and have access to that part or they havent and cant launch the design as is.

That would A amplifier or booster part and not really a internal upgrade :<

[JimmyAgent007]

it would have the same effect, and even be internal, but a separate part for sharing purposes

[Fylas]

it would have the same effect, and even be internal, but a separate part for sharing purposes

I don't want to sound like a broken record but if it's a separate PART it would NOT be internal O-o it would be a separate part that needs attaching O_o

[JimmyAgent007]

Why not? and thats not my point, my point is that if the game logic treats it as a separate part, maybe you apply it in the tweak-able menu and the game treats it like a separate part so that other people who dont have the tech to use that part dont run into issues. that way also in the sandbox you would have access to everything but the original parts wouldnt have changed so things would still be compatible. dont see why you need to get so worked up with the capitalized words and all that. im just putting some ideas out there.

[Fylas]

Why not? and thats not my point, my point is that if the game logic treats it as a separate part, maybe you apply it in the tweak-able menu and the game treats it like a separate part so that other people who dont have the tech to use that part dont run into issues. that way also in the sandbox you would have access to everything but the original parts wouldnt have changed so things would still be compatible. dont see why you need to get so worked up with the capitalized words and all that. im just putting some ideas out there.

Ahh no no I don't mean treated like a separate part, what I'd like to avoid is it BEING a different part physically, as in extra files for each part. The capital thing has nothing to do with shouting it's just how I emphase things :3 it just confused me how it was worded

[Fylas]

I apologize for the horrible form of the whole picture thing >_<' I was pretty out of it when I made that and I didn't even realize that almost entire sentences of what I was thinking about were written down only partially. The original thought was to make it easier to read which failed almost as spectacularly as a 50 booster rocket without any struts. Here the whole thing revised, in proper form and without causing eyecancer.

Upgrade variants A: specific technology upgrades

Affects only a few selected parts, the improvement is a fixed value regardless of which parts are added to the affected list

Example : Battery use 101

by placing each of the AAAA batteries of a Z100 battery pack in opposite sides of a command module it is possible to integrate them without taking too much space or a shift in balance, go figure!

Requirement: tier 5 electrics

Unlocking upgrade : still needs to be developed/paid for separately.

Effect: +100 energy and +0.005 to mass on all command modules of the technology tiers 1 to 5 or on all depending on what is considered balanced as well as maybe on drone parts. Possible applicable parts include Command pod MK 1, Cockpit MK 1 and 2 and for drones the Stayputnik.

Might not sound like much but several part upgrades like that would sum up to a more efficient craft that needs quite a few parts less and has an easier time in the atmosphere due to the reduces drag from side attachments and also a faster framerate on slower Pc's due to the parts saved in the construction of a craft employing those upgrades.

Upgrade variants B: Generalized upgrades

Upgrades which carry percentual modificator that affect a large amount of parts or all depending on the nature of the upgrade to tune their overall performance in the desired direction.

Example 1: Reinforced hulls

Reinforcing the hulls of critical craft components like cockpits and experimentation parts to ensure their survivability on a rough landing naturally comes with higher mass but it beats the alternative of cleaning up on failure. Be it supportive struts or simply adding thicker plating, it gets the job done.

Requirement: tier 7 advanced metalworks

Effects: multiplies the impact tolerance of parts by 2.0 and the mass by 1.4 resulting in a twice as strong resistance to utter destruction for an additional 40% in mass.

Affected : The upgrade improves mostly critical parts like command modules, science and utility parts as well as a few smaller fuel tanks for the core parts of a craft. This avoids wasting more mass on booster tanks which are not intended to stick around till the final stage of the craft anyway, mitigating a large portion of the mass increase in larger crafts.

If your the kind of person with a tendency to fill the Kerbal graveyard with a higher population then Kape Kanaveral. Then this upgrade is for you.

Example 2: Reinforced connections

Reinforcing the connections of all or certain parts depending on variant for a price. All the nuts,bolts welding material and duck tape are quite heavy, not to mention pricey.

Requirment: tier 7 advanced metal works

Effect : Improves the connection strength of all parts by 50% to 100% extra, whichever is less game breaking in return for 5 to 10% weight increase on everything.

Nobody said you can get Crafts that don't fall apart for free, but the increased stability can lead to a reduction in struts needed which is positive for the framerate and slightly reduces the extra costs.

Example 3: New material, name of material made u..... used.

The employment of newly created lighter and sturdier materials reduces in much lighter and sturdier parts. Unfortunately the production of said materials is still highly experimental and the production of large enough quantities for construction are astronomic and could easily bankrupt a small nation like Kliechtenstein.

Requirement: tier 8 meta materials

Effect : Increases the crash tolerance by 20% and reduces the mass of all applicable parts by 25% the catch for that however is a 4 to 6 times higher construction price limiting it's application to essential parts like command modules, utility, science, aerodynamic components and small fuel tanks and engines.

Due to the extreme price, loss of such a craft can easily blow the budget to Eelo. Employment on reusable crafts like high performance SSTO's could mitigate the cost factor. This would likely limit it's application to missions of extreme importance, and super prototypes meant to show off and increase funds to the Kerbal Space center as a sort of inspirational Propaganda Flag ship.

[KASASpace]

To the subject about sharing with others:

Well not necessarily, it could be a variable within the part cache that's activated on this ship only, and plus, the smae kind of thing happens with the tech tree, so maybe it can be done.

As far as I know.

I posted something like this before, but no one was as excited about it;.;

Here's the page:

http://http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/61269-Part-Upgrades

Edited January 18, 2014 by KASASpace

[Fylas]

To the subject about sharing with others:

Well not necessarily, it could be a variable within the part cache that's activated on this ship only, and plus, the smae kind of thing happens with the tech tree, so maybe it can be done.

As far as I know.

I posted something like this before, but no one was as excited about it;.;

Here's the page:

http://http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/61269-Part-Upgrades

Well I hoped that if the information which upgrade were active during construction at the bottom of the craft description in the .craft file but which part is affected by the upgrade is saved in the upgrade data and which upgrades are researched and active or disabled is stored in the savegame.

This way you can check which upgrades need to be active for ideal performance :3 But if you don't have the upgrade yet it would just act as if they don't exist and it's the regular stock parts instead of resulting in a loading error. Allowing you to alter the design to work without the upgrades or just turn em on :3

[KASASpace]

Well I hoped that if the information which upgrade were active during construction at the bottom of the craft description in the .craft file but which part is affected by the upgrade is saved in the upgrade data and which upgrades are researched and active or disabled is stored in the savegame.

This way you can check which upgrades need to be active for ideal performance :3 But if you don't have the upgrade yet it would just act as if they don't exist and it's the regular stock parts instead of resulting in a loading error. Allowing you to alter the design to work without the upgrades or just turn em on :3

Well, my idea is that it's in the tweakables, but special tweaks unlocked through the tech tree. Maybe if you don't have those tweaks it just removes them?

[Fylas]

Well, my idea is that it's in the tweakables, but special tweaks unlocked through the tech tree. Maybe if you don't have those tweaks it just removes them?

I think that is a different category, tweaks sounds more like fine tuning the hardware to new specifications after getting used to the technology they found a way to run it more efficiently (like how the space shuttles safe engine thrust turned out to be above 100% of the original estimate)

How I understand it additional tweaks would be unlocked by unlocking higher tiers of the same type or similar technology and wouldn't need to be bought extra while upgrades would bring with it a physical change and thus costs and optional activation but no actual alteration of what the upgrade does. only what is affected.

Also sorry for not writing for so long! got knocked out and looked like the phantom of the opera thanks to being allergic to Diclofenac -.- who knew XD

[KASASpace]

I think that is a different category, tweaks sounds more like fine tuning the hardware to new specifications after getting used to the technology they found a way to run it more efficiently (like how the space shuttles safe engine thrust turned out to be above 100% of the original estimate)

How I understand it additional tweaks would be unlocked by unlocking higher tiers of the same type or similar technology and wouldn't need to be bought extra while upgrades would bring with it a physical change and thus costs and optional activation but no actual alteration of what the upgrade does. only what is affected.

Also sorry for not writing for so long! got knocked out and looked like the phantom of the opera thanks to being allergic to Diclofenac -.- who knew XD

Well, I meant per part per ship. like on one ship, there's a "tweak" that changes how much Isp the engine gets, but htere's a downside. I see tweaks as changes to performance or perhaps changes to the part itself. Like making an LV-909 lighter and more efficient, but reducing thrust and increasing cost, but this would be a variable "expander cycle" which when activated changes the specs, but it is activated through the tweakables system, but they're unlockable tweaks.

[minerman30]

Here's an idea: fix the current part stats, make sandbox mode have fully upgraded parts (where the majority of ship-sharing happens), and then have career mode make the parts weaker, and have the upgrades go to the full stats.

[Fylas]

that actually sounds dangerous, first what do you mean with fix the current part stats? and do you mean the sandbox having the maximum possible boosts ? if the parts are weaker in career mode instead of the original 100% performance being improved upon nothing would work as intended anymore :<

So you mean like Sandbox = all upgrade boosts active all the time?

Sorry if I don't understand it right, I'm still on medication XD

[KASASpace]

I think he means lower the stats, so the upgrades make it the final version.

[CaptainArchmage]

There was a devlog regarding 0.22 that suggested there would be research to reduce the mass of parts by something like 10%. However, none of those made it into the final tech tree so far.

[Capt Snuggler]

I do like this idea and am in support of it. but there is an issue with changing the mass or thrust properties of parts.

If you create and share a craft and the part mass or thrust changes when loaded by another user, the craft may become less stable or unusable. the center of mass and/or thrust changes. Anything that discourages sharing should be avoided.

[Fylas]

Hey snuggly this is why I listed "coreparts" for the mass changing upgrade in the examples. If it's only the parts needed for the final stages of a craft it doesn't affect the initial start much in terms of imbalance as the boosters and dropped engines etc aren't involved. I figured this way even if it's a asymmetric design the deviation to the old center of mass would be so small that the SAS and vector thrust can compensate.

[Capt Snuggler]

ok I see. but how would the game differentiate core parts from non-core parts? as any part can be placed anywhere on a craft?

this is a very exciting idea, and I want it work, but I think if there is any chance of this being widely acknowledged, it needs to be very simple to implement. will have a look in the config for a part. using tweakables menus as a way of choosing the upgrade tier sounds good.

upgrade tiers and the enhanced stats could be contained entirely in the parts .cfg file, and the upgrade level achieved by the ships creator would be stored in the .craft file at the time of saving.

this way as long as the .craft is not changed(saved over) by the lower tier user(downloader) it would remain and operate as the craft designer(uploader) intended unless it is modified. if the craft is modified by the downloader, upgrade level stored in the .craft file is overwritten by that of the downloader. (tier 4 upgrades downgrade to tier 1)

that could/should solve the craft sharing problem and keep it mostly seamless for all players, except for maybe a warning message if you are about to overwrite a craft and downgrade parts. i think i need a flow diagram.

[minerman30]

I do like this idea and am in support of it. but there is an issue with changing the mass or thrust properties of parts.

If you create and share a craft and the part mass or thrust changes when loaded by another user, the craft may become less stable or unusable. the center of mass and/or thrust changes. Anything that discourages sharing should be avoided.

The idea I suggested earlier would mean that sandbox mode parts (where the majority of sharing happens) would have the original stats, possibly tweaked for realism, and the career mode parts would be weakened. The part upgrades would eventually get them to the same stats.

[Fylas]

Snuggly with "core parts" I am merely defining items of specific categories which tend to only appear in the real craft, since the stuff that gets you into orbit is usually just a large contraption of engines and giant fuel tanks.

and miner..... sorry but that is the exact opposite of what I wanted T_T weakening the parts and making people pay their budget to get em back to normal? Q_Q that sounds more like blackmail T_T the poor rockets :< then your not upgrading , your removing a debuff.

[Capt Snuggler]

Snuggly with "core parts" I am merely defining items of specific categories which tend to only appear in the real craft, since the stuff that gets you into orbit is usually just a large contraption of engines and giant fuel tanks.

ok yeah, i think all part groups could benefit from some kind of buff. what ever it does it just cant inhibit creative freedom or even bad design. some people design silly, crazy, unconventional craft and they must be able to continue doing so.

I think it would be better if all part groups had some kind of upgrade but have the ability to downgrade individual parts back to a lower level through tweakables.

making people pay their budget to get em back to normal? Q_Q that sounds more like blackmail T_T the poor rockets :< then your not upgrading , your removing a debuff.

yeah, agree with you on that. only Buff no Nerf.

what I am proposing would allow sharing between stand box and career players even if they are at a lower part level. career players would just have to "buy" locked/unmodifiable .craft, above there current unlocked tech level. but its one time purchase, if they crash or terminate the flight they have to "buy" the craft again.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Capt Snuggler

[Tweeker]

I don't know if I agree with the argument that it would keep people from trading ship, I mean right now the tech tree keep you from being able to build some ship if you haven't unlocked radial decouplers, or 2.5M tanks

So I think this idea would make a lot of sense if it was integrated into the tech tree, for example maybe when you unlock electrics you gain the ability to add an alternator to an engine, as a tweakable. It adds a little weight, and fuel consumption. The same thing could be done with RCS, SAS, and sprinkle a few buffs and add-ons around the tree.

[Tweeker]

Gimbals could be done this way as well. that would allow the lvt-30 and lvt-45 to be merged into a single engine, then they would be diffentiated by what options are turned on as tweakables in the VAB. Then later in the tree there might be a +5% or +10% thrust option, or a sea level efficienty boost.

so you would have:

LVT-37

thrust 210

weight 1.3t

LVT-37 +10% +alternator +gimbal

thrust 210 +10% = 230

alternator +.15t

gimbal +.1t

total weight 1.55t

I think this would add a lot of flexibility to the career mode, be fairly simple to implement, and it could reduce the number of parts needed in the game to show progress and variety.