Another use for the mobile processing lab

[Ruinsage]

I don't know about the rest of you, but i hate the mobile lab. It's huge, heavy and useless. For the weight, you could just add several of the smaller science parts, instead of using the lab to be able to reuse it. So basically, it's useless unless you are on an unreasonably long journey, where you have to use more than ten science jr. and more than ten mystery goo containers.

So this is my suggestion:

Have it function as it does now, but give it an additional function: the collection of science over time, with the condition that it will need to stay in the same biome/ orbital altitude interval for the duration of the science collection. The collected science can then be either brought down to kerbin with the lab, brought aboard a command pod/cockpit for optimal gain, or be transmitted back with antennas, just like the other science parts.

This would make bases and orbital stations useful as more than just fuel depots, which is something i really think this game needs.

"but what if people just fast forward and cheat"

Let them. They still need to create stable orbits to gain usable results in space, and need to be able to power it throughout the night on the surface, unlike with any of the current experiments.

EDIT: The science it produces could also just be left over science from other experiments. For instance:

everything collected from the mun poles, except for temperature: it would collect the same science as the temperature science part

or

Using it before any other science parts: it collects all the available science from the biome, leaving none to be collected with other science parts.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Ruinsage

[HazelPine]

I like this idea! I want this now!

[r4pt0r]

science over time. why does everyone think this is such a great idea? i think a better option is 1 time use experiments (like growing plants in space for example), that require time to pass say 1 month (unlike the goo/bay), before being transmitted/returned. then they are un spamable.

[Atoning Unifex]

science over time. why does everyone think this is such a great idea? i think a better option is 1 time use experiments (like growing plants in space for example), that require time to pass say 1 month (unlike the goo/bay), before being transmitted/returned. then they are un spamable.

But that IS science over time!? I see the distinction though, and I do prefer this approach rather than a continual trickle for ever. It requires restocking and returning and generally makes the process more interactive.

[HazelPine]

Something that made it create science as long as it has experiments; as soon as experiments run out, it stops and you have to restock by docking. Experiments could be a resource the lab would use, like electricCharge.

[sgtscuba]

Something that made it create science as long as it has experiments; as soon as experiments run out, it stops and you have to restock by docking. Experiments could be a resource the lab would use, like electricCharge.

^this ideally

[Themohawkninja]

Let them. They still need to create stable orbits to gain usable results in space, and need to be able to power it throughout the night on the surface, unlike with any of the current experiments.

In KSP, virtually all orbits are stable as long as they don't get too close to other orbits (which isn't hard at all). A few batteries with some solar panels, 100,000x warp, and BAM, too much science.

[Ruinsage]

In KSP, virtually all orbits are stable as long as they don't get too close to other orbits (which isn't hard at all). A few batteries with some solar panels, 100,000x warp, and BAM, too much science.

What i meant by a stable orbit is an orbit that doesn't overlap altitude "biomes" (for instance: in space near the mun as opposed to in space high over the mun). Also, an orbit that doesn't overlap with the orbit of celestial objects that would alter the course of the ship, like the mun.

And you exactly highlighted the reason i suggested this the way i did. Yes, you can but some batteries and a solar panel on and get all the available science, but that's exactly the point, as what you described is a working research station, which is what people have been asking for for quite some time. And yes, you can just speed up the time, but so what? Is getting the science instantly a better fix? At least this way you have to create a stable orbit, or a station that maintains power through the night, instead of just landing, doing a quick eva, and then be on your way back to kerbin.

This way people can choose to do something else while the station collects science, and if they choose to do nothing while they speed up time, so what?

[Themohawkninja]

What i meant by a stable orbit is an orbit that doesn't overlap altitude "biomes" (for instance: in space near the mun as opposed to in space high over the mun). Also, an orbit that doesn't overlap with the orbit of celestial objects that would alter the course of the ship, like the mun.

For things like the Mun, Kerbin, and Minmus, such a mono-biome orbit is impossible. For any other body right now, that just about every orbit.

And you exactly highlighted the reason i suggested this the way i did. Yes, you can but some batteries and a solar panel on and get all the available science, but that's exactly the point, as what you described is a working research station, which is what people have been asking for for quite some time. And yes, you can just speed up the time, but so what? Is getting the science instantly a better fix? At least this way you have to create a stable orbit, or a station that maintains power through the night, instead of just landing, doing a quick eva, and then be on your way back to kerbin.

This way people can choose to do something else while the station collects science, and if they choose to do nothing while they speed up time, so what?

You have to land (which is even more difficult) to get a lot of science as well. While it is perfectly okay to give people the ability to just speed up time and get science, you need to take balancing into account here. If you allow people to do that, than you just get it into the proper orbit, go onto 100,000x, watch TV for a few hours, and BAM! tech tree finished.

[42undead2]

BAM! tech tree finished.

To this I say: Let them. Just because you introduce science over time, it doesn't mean it will be THE ONE AND ONLY way.

[Atoning Unifex]

Allowing research to be so simply collected over time really removes any need for research to be in the game at all. If I can launch a simple station and then gather enough research to complete the tech tree, by simply skipping time whilst having a cup of tea, then what is the point of research? There is no challenge in gathering it. May as well simply make every part available at the beginning.

On the other hand it will depend on how reputation & currency work in line with this continual generation. Maybe the cost of running such a research station will require flights to be undertaken regularly to pay for the upkeep. Maybe reputation will encourage more research generation from the station (More countries/companies wanting to do research through you) and without missions to keep reputation up the research produced will be minimal.

This might be quite a nice balancing act if done correctly. On the other hand I still like the simplicity of having research supplies that are used up and need providing regularly.

[Ruinsage]

For things like the Mun, Kerbin, and Minmus, such a mono-biome orbit is impossible. For any other body right now, that just about every orbit.

You have to land (which is even more difficult) to get a lot of science as well. While it is perfectly okay to give people the ability to just speed up time and get science, you need to take balancing into account here. If you allow people to do that, than you just get it into the proper orbit, go onto 100,000x, watch TV for a few hours, and BAM! tech tree finished.

I did mention that there is a limit to how much science you can get (which i'm guessing you missed). So you can't just speed up the time and finish the tech tree, just like how you can't make a rocket of a hundred science jr. parts, and then get full science from them at the launchpad.

And i have never said anything about geosynchronous orbit, i'm talking about staying within or without the altitude that is the border between "in space near" and "in space high above", just like with every other science part so far.

Landing gives more science than a fly by, which it should. Just like mun bases should provide more than a station in orbit around the mun, as they should. But a base on the mun is also more tricky than just landing.

And again, to be clear: I am not suggesting a way to make infinite science by speeding up time

[Ruinsage]

Allowing research to be so simply collected over time really removes any need for research to be in the game at all. If I can launch a simple station and then gather enough research to complete the tech tree, by simply skipping time whilst having a cup of tea, then what is the point of research?

again, science over time =/= infinite science, which i also stated in the OP.

[Themohawkninja]

I did mention that there is a limit to how much science you can get (which i'm guessing you missed). So you can't just speed up the time and finish the tech tree, just like how you can't make a rocket of a hundred science jr. parts, and then get full science from them at the launchpad.

Is this limited to the number of science per lab, or in total?

And i have never said anything about geosynchronous orbit, i'm talking about staying within or without the altitude that is the border between "in space near" and "in space high above", just like with every other science part so far.

I never mentioned geosynchronous orbits either.

Landing gives more science than a fly by, which it should. Just like mun bases should provide more than a station in orbit around the mun, as they should. But a base on the mun is also more tricky than just landing.

And again, to be clear: I am not suggesting a way to make infinite science by speeding up time

Maybe not, but is sounds too easy. What is preventing players from timewarping to milk the labs dry of science in a few minutes, just like players used to do with all other science parts in 0.22?

[Joonatan1998]

The point of experiments taking time isn't that you must do something else while they are running, their point is that you must have a stable orbit around the target, and not just a flyby and your orbit isn't allowed to cross the low/high space border.

Example: Recearch in space near the sun

It is much harder to get orbit low around the sun that has it's apoapsis under the border than it is to get orbit that has it's apoapsisvery high over the sun (above kerbin orbit)

[Ruinsage]

Is this limited to the number of science per lab, or in total?

In total, just like with every other science part.

I never mentioned geosynchronous orbits either.

You said that staying in the "mono biome orbit" was impossible for the objects near kerbin, but not for the rest of the planets and moons. I assumed that you meant hovering above the biomes, like the craters on the mun, which would be geosynchronous orbit.

What i'm talking about is a circular orbit, with upper and lower orbit height inside some arbitrary limit.

Maybe not, but is sounds too easy. What is preventing players from timewarping to milk the labs dry of science in a few minutes, just like players used to do with all other science parts in 0.22?

Nothing is preventing them from timewarping, but so what? Im not saying this experiment should provide many times more than the current experiments, which are all instant, just that it should be more realistic, because experiments take time. And for those of us who wants to build functioning bases and stations, this would create a reason to do just that.

I don't see why this is such a big problem, and i even answered this question in the OP, because i know people have been complaining about every idea that involves resources over time. Frankly, i think letting the science parts drain from the total science pool (so to speak) over time is a much better way to do it than the current "lets instantly get 90% of the total science, and then have to send up a whole new rocket to get the last 10%. The only difference between my suggestion and the way it is now, is that my suggestion requires a more stable orbit for in-space experiments, and a more stable power supply all together.

Heck, when/if they implement life support, this provides the extra challenge of keeping the kerbals alive while they experiment, which i would love even more.

[Themohawkninja]

You said that staying in the "mono biome orbit" was impossible for the objects near kerbin, but not for the rest of the planets and moons. I assumed that you meant hovering above the biomes, like the craters on the mun, which would be geosynchronous orbit.

What i'm talking about is a circular orbit, with upper and lower orbit height inside some arbitrary limit.

By "mono-biome" I was referring anywhere but Kerbin, Mun, or Minmus, where a circular orbit is only one biome.

Nothing is preventing them from timewarping, but so what? Im not saying this experiment should provide many times more than the current experiments, which are all instant, just that it should be more realistic, because experiments take time. And for those of us who wants to build functioning bases and stations, this would create a reason to do just that.

I don't see why this is such a big problem, and i even answered this question in the OP, because i know people have been complaining about every idea that involves resources over time. Frankly, i think letting the science parts drain from the total science pool (so to speak) over time is a much better way to do it than the current "lets instantly get 90% of the total science, and then have to send up a whole new rocket to get the last 10%. The only difference between my suggestion and the way it is now, is that my suggestion requires a more stable orbit for in-space experiments, and a more stable power supply all together.

Heck, when/if they implement life support, this provides the extra challenge of keeping the kerbals alive while they experiment, which i would love even more.

Here is the big issue though. If it's not infinite science, like your idea is, than it's just a lengthier version of what is already in the game. You instead of getting it instantly, you just timewarp to milk it all. It doesn't really add anything to the game.

[Vostok]

Here is the big issue though. If it's not infinite science, like your idea is, than it's just a lengthier version of what is already in the game. You instead of getting it instantly, you just timewarp to milk it all. It doesn't really add anything to the game.

I think the idea would mean that you might get a science bonus for the extended research.

For example, say you did some (what for us right now is normal) research on the lunar surface using a one use lander, and you transmit it to kerbin. All the science equipment would get the fraction of the science available to it via transmission.

However, say you land a lab on the same lunar biome, and spend extra time performing research. when transmitted back to kerbin, this would not only net the full science value of all the experiments available to the lab (you could put that down to better communication due to crew on board, better sample processing, whatever), it would also gain a sort of 'surface laboratory bonus' of, say, 50% on top of the science already gathered or something (that would need to be balanced).

Numerically using arbitrary values:

Mission to mun, one way ship with goo container. Total science transmitted back: 80 out of a total possible 100 science.

compared to:

Mission to mun, one way ship with goo container and science lab. Total science transmitted back: 100 from experiment + 50 science bonus = 150 science transmitted back.

This is still barely worth it if you compare the weight of the science lab to the weight of the goo module, but it is still an incentive. Appropriate adjustment of the percentage bonus would allow for balancing.

The lab bonus could be explained as opportunistic research, or new discoveries that the crew on board didn't expect to find.

Either way, it would create a good incentive for landing a whole base rather than just the individual experiments.

Due to the weight of the lab module, this would remain fair, as it takes far more work to land a lab module intact with all the science experiments than it does to just land a singular ship with all the experiments.

The amount of time taken should be proportional to the total amount of science that can be gathered from the particular setup, naturally.

The fact that it takes more time to do the research would perhaps relate to the difference between the science that the experiments would normally transmit back, and the full value of the science available from the biome, as well as the science bonus. The longer you spend researching, the more towards the full values and full science bonus the actual transmitted science would tend.

It would be possible to limit timewarp whilst performing research, but I feel that it would bore the player to sit and stare at a lab doing nothing for too long.

If you were to limit timewarp whilst the lab was researching, some form of sample collection minigame could be implemented (having to have a kerbal walk a certain distance or certain point to take a sample) however that is a topic unrelated to this discussion.

[Themohawkninja]

I think the idea would mean that you might get a science bonus for the extended research.

-snip-

That doesn't seem to be "over time" as the OP suggested though, unless you are trying to say that instead of getting so much science per second you are waiting a certain amount of time before you can get a chunk of science?

[Balto-the-Wolf-Dog]

Unfortunately just "letting them" would wind up worming its way out to the rest of us through general operations unless it was a very slow cline. A mission out to Jool takes around two years round trip usually, I think I'd find it pretty anticlimactic to go off on a giant science escapade to the far planets and return to discover my LKO station had generated as much or more science in the mean time, a condition that would be difficult to avoid. I am of the mindset that the lab module should be a receptacle for experiments as suggested earlier, as in you launch experiments designed for it (like a tank with that octopus thing in it) to see how they react to conditions in space over a long period of time. Yes, time is then involved, but its still on a per-experiment basis and requires launches to facilitate it like a lot of research aboard ISS. There's also the matter of resupplying the station that could be added to bring in balance, something that would come accompanying life support mechanics, obviously.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Balto-the-Wolf-Dog

[Artikae]

Unfortunately just "letting them" would wind up worming its way out to the rest of us through general operations unless it was a very slow cline. A mission out to Jool takes around two years round trip usually, I think I'd find it pretty anticlimactic to go off on a giant science escapade to the far planets and return to discover my LKO station had generated as much or more science in the mean time, a condition that would be difficult to avoid. I am of the mindset that the lab module should be a receptacle for experiments as suggested earlier, as in you launch experiments designed for it (like a tank with that octopus thing in it) to see how they react to conditions in space over a long period of time. Yes, time is then involved, but its still on a per-experiment basis and requires launches to facilitate it like a lot of research aboard ISS. There's also the matter of resupplying the station that could be added to bring in balance, something that would come accompanying life support mechanics, obviously.

Perhaps putting your experiments in a lab on-site could give you, for example x2 science after a couple weeks. It would encourage making larger landers and/or bases. Its also not spammable.

[Ruinsage]

Here is the big issue though. If it's not infinite science, like your idea is, than it's just a lengthier version of what is already in the game. You instead of getting it instantly, you just timewarp to milk it all. It doesn't really add anything to the game.

I guess i have not been clear enough, my suggestion is not infinite science, its a lengthier version of what is in the game. The reason i want this is that it forces people to make functioning bases/stations, which is something we just doesn't have right now. And sure, you can choose to just milk it all, but you can also choose to make it a working base around the mun that you can dock all your mun missions with, letting you store the science with the station before taking it down to kerbin.

Unfortunately just "letting them" would wind up worming its way out to the rest of us through general operations unless it was a very slow cline. A mission out to Jool takes around two years round trip usually, I think I'd find it pretty anticlimactic to go off on a giant science escapade to the far planets and return to discover my LKO station had generated as much or more science in the mean time, a condition that would be difficult to avoid. I am of the mindset that the lab module should be a receptacle for experiments as suggested earlier, as in you launch experiments designed for it (like a tank with that octopus thing in it) to see how they react to conditions in space over a long period of time. Yes, time is then involved, but its still on a per-experiment basis and requires launches to facilitate it like a lot of research aboard ISS. There's also the matter of resupplying the station that could be added to bring in balance, something that would come accompanying life support mechanics, obviously.

In case i didn't mention it, there should be a max science per experiment, just like with all the other experiments. So you won't be getting more from it than from a round trip to another planet.

I simply want a reason to make working bases and stations, and having the most valuable source of science take some time to finish can accomplish just that.