Rovers Improved

[r4pt0r]

So I've had some ideas bouncing around for improving rovers that I wanted to discuss with the community.

People, myself included, have previously suggested some means of rovers obtaining surface samples. I again put that idea forth, with the suggestion of making it similar in appereance and use to the kethane drills, except you would gain science towards the sample collection we already have(40% cap for transmitting yada yada).

My second idea would be a place-able "Rover cam". It would enable an optional first person view for rovers, and would give an additional +5 bonus points to each experiment returned or transmitted if it's on the craft(not overpowered at all I think). This is not a suggestion for cameras for science pictures to be clear. also it would have zoom. It could look like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancam

Thirdly I would suggest a tweakable. I'm not sure if this is already in game however so pardon me. I think that rover wheels should get the tweakable option of normal "car" controls(turning over a distance) or "tank" controls(turning on the spot without forward movement).

I hope I've not broken any rules here. Now, let us begin discussing improving rovers

(edit: i also realized that one could place a "rover cam" right above a docking port for easier docking)

Edited January 13, 2014 by r4pt0r
got another idea

[leax256]

the large rover wheels act like tank tracks, so the potiential is there for all them to do that, just needs to be implimented.

[LordFjord]

I've pondered a bit about making rovers and buggies useful in career mode - except their own awesomeness.

Simply adding a drill wouldn't stop people to just attach those to normal probes, what is fine in its own way but is not directly related to making a rover useful.

So, what can a rover do what a lander can't? Drive. Drive fast.

So, some experiment with a science revenue that is related to the reached top ground speed would be fun.

It is quite a challenge to drive on low-gravity environments, so it could be fun.

Or better, something that measures top speed and sets it into a relation of the total mass or the weight of the vehicle - that way Kerbals can gain very valuable data about crashing driving vehicles on different places - with a simple part that all sizes of rovers can use.

Having Kerbals on board would of course enhance the experiment's science value.

Enhancing top ground speed with rockets is of course valid.

The formula can be fine-tuned but you get the general idea.

[Bobe]

So, what can a rover do what a lander can't? Drive. Drive fast.

Let's be realistic here. Well, as realistic as KSP warrants.

A lander is typically designed to put one or more Kerbals in a stationary position on the surface. They can then perform EVAs in the immediate area, taking surface samples and setting up experiments. In fact, the latter is something I think we are missing.

A rover, specifically an unmanned rover, is designed to explore a wide area of the surface, taking samples from many different locations. It could also perform experiments using on-board parts. You could say that a manned rover allows the same thing, but for now let's just keep them separate.

Let's also assume that the role of a lander mission is to set up stationary experiments, take surface samples and then return the samples where they can be analyzed. We would also assume that the role of a rover is to act as a mobile experiment platform, taking surface samples at multiple locations, perform an analysis of the samples and transmit the data back to Kerbin.

Think about it in real world scenarios, it's much cheaper and safer to design, build and send a small rover to a planet than it is to send an actual crew. Apply that to career mode, or what might become of it, and it makes sense that rovers be used as a means for more efficient and cost-effective science gathering missions. Then, once you have researched a bit more and gained more money, then you can plan a manned mission to generate even more science.

[LordFjord]

The issue with rovers as research platforms is that you can't really get them into the different biomes effectively - and science is mostly focussed on those at the moment. You can rarely make use of a rover to pass biome boundaries. Nobody wants to drive around for hours to pass those distances.

It's a realism vs gameplay/fun aspect.

Trying to build a good rover with some size and maybe some passengers for bonus, deliver it somewhere, try to actually play out your experiment instead of pushing a button, I think that's not a bad idea. It would involve both building and driving skill to get high science values out of it.

Need to ponder a bit more about it, this might as well get me into starting modding

[r4pt0r]

that is where mission planning comes in. many places have 3 biomes nearly intersecting on mun/minmus. i don't think a mini-game where you read a thermometer would be fun. also physics timewarp makes driving easy, particularly across minmus flats.

[Capt Snuggler]

You guys should take a look at this tread regarding how to make unmanned rovers better for career mode:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/62753-Rovers-Move-Automatically?p=865441#post865441

this tread is mostly about addressing the issue of getting rovers to different biomes without sitting for hours holding "W".

this combined with what has been discussed here, rovers would finally be a useful craft in KSP career mode.

[LordFjord]

that is where mission planning comes in. many places have 3 biomes nearly intersecting on mun/minmus. i don't think a mini-game where you read a thermometer would be fun. also physics timewarp makes driving easy, particularly across minmus flats.

I dont know where you got the minigame idea from, and I agree that it would be stupid. Driving on minmus is easy as you go slow. Have you tried to go fast? Goes well on the flats, still sometimes things go wrong easily. Kerbal science isnt dead serious or realistic so I can't see the reason not to try this. I've taken a look at mod basics and this seems to be easy to do. I'll give it a shot anyway.

[r4pt0r]

try to actually play out your experiment instead of pushing a button)

i assumed that meant mini-game. my apologies.

[JumpsterG]

I like pretty much everything suggested in this thread (except the thermometer reading minigame).

I would love for rovers to gain more usefulness. Their advantage over other types of vehicles is actually pretty significant: Their electric-powered wheels can run forever with RTGs or Solar panels and consume no fuel.

2 things hurt the rover and prevent us from taking advantage of it:

-Comparatively slow travel - If it didn't take so much real time (albeit time acceleration helps) to get places with a rover, we would use them way more. See @Capt Snuggler's link above for more discussion.

-Nowhere to go - Well, we do have multiple biomes to visit, but having more (and more densely clustered) areas of interest would incentivize the use of rovers. Not necessarily smaller biomes or easter eggs but perhaps smaller anomalous targets that provide some reward (science or otherwise) for investigating or setting up an experiment package.

As for the other things suggested (that would benefit all types of missions!):

-Tank Treads - Awesome.

-Car Steering - Actually, you can get proper car steering by disabling your rear wheels' steering and optionally disabling the front wheels' motors; I think it can be done in the VAB/SPH now with tweakables, but you can definitely right-click in flight.

-Sample drill - I have done mockup probe sample collection missions (before science was added, even) and would love this.

-Hull Camera - I have used the hull camera mod to great effect and would love a stock version:

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[LordFjord]

i assumed that meant mini-game. my apologies.

No worries, misunderstanding

[technicalfool]

This could be fun if some kind of science-worthiness can be attached to random items that you might find scattered across the planet. I know the obvious candidate is the various easter eggs, but I'm thinking more common things, like different types of rocks and minerals. Something to make it worth trundling a rover across the surface to take pictures to send back for analysis.

Could use the screenshots as part of whatever science library and museum pieces end up in the game. "Evidence of Keldspar and Kerbite found on Duna's surface", +50 science base amount, picture of the offending screenshot, a timestamp and a list of any Kerbonauts aboard the rover.

[Atoning Unifex]

I'd love to see much greater rover worthiness, however I think it would really need an overhaul of science to make it work properly. On the basis that we're talking about traversing terrain and collecting and analysing/returning multiple samples, the current science set up doesn't really work in our favour.

The large biomes mean any samples collected in those biomes will be the same so you may as well collect several samples from the same spot - travel is unnecessary. Landing near biome boundaries isn't easy as they are not clearly marked and, again, samples from each biome render a large area used up.

Also there is currently no sample analysis (or any scientific analysis), we go straight from looking at a thermometer or rock to a full analysis.

Maybe what we need instead are a large number of micro-biomes on a planet so that when one is 'used up' there are plenty more and close by so we can easily travel to it from anywhere. There doesn't even need to be that many different types of biome, they could be clustered groups of similar types - I'm thinking like a kethane map here for those that know it!

Once samples or other science data is collected then I think that there should be a next step performed to convert them into actual science. My thinking is that researching nodes in the tree could require x number of surface samples, y number of seismic readings and z temperature readings, for example to unlock. Or perhaps there could be goals to return these readings to commercial scientists that then 'reward' us with research points to use where we want.

[UH60guy]

This could be fun if some kind of science-worthiness can be attached to random items that you might find scattered across the planet. I know the obvious candidate is the various easter eggs, but I'm thinking more common things, like different types of rocks and minerals. Something to make it worth trundling a rover across the surface to take pictures to send back for analysis.

I agree- as it is now, there's no gameply motivation to ever build a rover. Maybe it could be implemented with using terrain scatter as items you need to collect. Just like how the Mars rovers drove up to several rocks, we could be credited with doing the same. There a rover becomes a real gameplay incentive- sure you could walk all around the area, but if the devs increase the scatter juuussssssst enough, it will be a pain for the player to collect all samples by foot in a single mission- leading to a real incentive to having rovers.

[Themohawkninja]

I agree- as it is now, there's no gameply motivation to ever build a rover.

Actually, I just got a colony started on Laythe, and the rover made it MUCH easier to go the 6 km distance to the water to collect a water sample.

[MisiuWielki]

Actually, as I like to do thing so I can use them and doing things because they can be done doesn't appeal to me, there's no gameplay motivation to build anything but a manned craft, fuel station and tons of debris. Space station has some (a bit more with 0,23) use - I can refuel and now, when I've put science lab in my station experiments on my landing pod can be reset. No use for rovers (I've never really left Kerbin's SOI, but well, with them moving around the planets is just a bit faster and large distances are easier to cover with a rocket, at least without atmosphere). Totally no use for a base. Probes - well only point I see is to make one way trips, when you can't return.

[UH60guy]

Actually, I just got a colony started on Laythe, and the rover made it MUCH easier to go the 6 km distance to the water to collect a water sample.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I love my rovers- I just mean that there's no career incentive for them. As in they don't enable us to get much extra science, except where a few biomes come close together. Even then, the size of the biomes means you're likely only to cross the border into maybe one more (like how you drove from shore to water for example, or flats to slopes on Minmus), again making the rover not that helpful. Usually people seem to make the point to point hopping lander to collect multiple biomes oweing to the distances involved.

I agree rovers are great for bases- but again, without long-term science or "contracts" implemented yet, there's no actual incentive for bases or space stations either, other than for our own amusement. Giving something like a scattering of "things" to collect within a radius of say 1 or 2 km in order to return science, and within a single biome, would give that gameplay incentive (not just a "for fun" incentive) to make them useful.

Edited January 16, 2014 by UH60guy

[Capt Snuggler]

*snip* Giving something like a scattering of "things" to collect within a radius of say 1 or 2 km in order to return science, and within a single biome, would give that gameplay incentive (not just a "for fun" incentive) to make them useful.

this is a great idea!

I still think the unmanned rovers should drive them selves to some extent. blocking off steep slopes and limiting the craft to flat areas, they could be left follow way points set by the player. maybe even perform science tasks at scheduled points along the route.