Make stock ships available in Career and provide some Career specific designs

[Kasuha]

In my opinion, new KSP players often start the Career game and get lost quite soon because limited supply of parts keeps them back rather than provides simplicity.

I know the game won't allow loading a ship which contains unavailable parts in Career mode.

I therefore propose that the game could allow access to stock ships in Career and provide some low tech stock ships with detailed descriptions which could be used by these new players. If the description tells the player what is the ship good for, such as "you can safely get to orbit and back" or "you can land on Mun and return", new players won't feel that lost in the game. It will also help them determine the true reason of their failure, whether it is bad design or bad piloting.

These ships don't have to be complete. Actually I think they should be incomplete in a way, such as leave it up to the player to attach science instruments. Or they can be without boosters or engines, leaving it up to the player to finish them up. So they still can leave some room for the challenge. The higher up the tech tree, the more challenging (incomplete) these designs can be.

Seeing how well the BSC challenge series went, I believe the player community would be happy to prepare and offer some designs for that purpose, even if they were only used as placeholders till the game is more complete.

[Keymaster89]

i disagree with this idea... KSP is: build a ship, launch a ship, if succesful = profit, if fail = earn data of why u fail, there is no lose.

Having a bunch of ready to use ship, destroy creativity, it will become copy-paste. everyone have to develop their own way to design ships. "get to orbit and back" and "land on moon and return" is actually objective that anyone should archieve step by step, fail after fail, to understand WHY a ship is build like that. If u get a free ticket to orbit, why should it be challenging?

If u make a "here, this should be done like this, give it a try" there is no reason to build ship on your own and going crazy with them which is 75% of the game.

At the time u have to go to another planet, without a lazy sample on "how to get there and return" they start play for real and they realize that they can orbit and deorbit correctly, but they don't know how to bring heavy fuel station into orbit or build a SSTO that can carry people there and dock.

What i wanna say is: i learned how to build rockets in this game even from the first most basic cockpit-chute-solid rocket i ever made from the start of the career. I felt proud of my archivement because I fully archive them alone. launch the rocket in atmosphere, then upper atmosphere, then near Kerbin and finally into orbit, that was archived my ME, not by a premade ingame freewin rocket, even if that is near the same configuration as mine! i really doubt i had the same good experience and the same game with prebuild rockets... they just sound to me a lazy way to get around problem, but this is KSP, u need to face problem in order to resolve them.

[Kasuha]

So you want to say, you never learned from stock ships in KSP, never watched videos on YouTube and never visited forums and you invented asparagus staging yourself?

I was not that good. For me, stock ships were a good source of inspiration when I was a KSP newbie. And that's why I think there should be some in Career, too. Because Career mode is the default now and newbies tend to try it first.

[allmappedout]

The only kerbal ship I actually learned from was the Kerbal X, as it showed me about asparagus staging. Now...whilst I kind of like the idea, I feel like you either have to commit to saying you have everything, or you don't unlock them in the first place. A half-finished ship is no good really, as any one can just load up Sandbox and complete the design as it was intended (or, if the parts aren't available, the ship won't work as designed anyway and you could bring in some other design issues which a newbie wouldn't necessarily know what to do to fix either).

Going back to your first point that career mode might limit newbies rather than guide them, well...that's an entirely different argument entirely (that I partially agree with...but possibly for different reasons).

[Bobe]

Personally, it was a while before I even looked at any of the stock ships. Granted I was playing in sandbox, but I enjoyed the process of figuring things out without the game holding my hand. After all, if you understand the fundamental principles of constructing a rocket, it's not that hard to get started. I'm sure even the younger players know that the engine should be on the bottom.

Of course, I didn't just instinctively know everything. I absorbed numerous videos and articles even before buying the game, learning little tricks and gaining inspiration along the way.

I don't even play career mode, I tried it out after it was added, but honestly I just wasn't having much fun. It felt like a grind to generate science. Perhaps I was doing it wrong, and maybe the changes to science experiments has made it a bit better, but in its current state I enjoy sandbox a lot more.

Anyway, I believe that giving players some stock ships in career mode might discourage them from even making their own. If there's already one that can make it to Mun, why would they even bother?

I think the construction tutorial is plenty to get new players started.

[Keymaster89]

So you want to say, you never learned from stock ships in KSP, never watched videos on YouTube and never visited forums and you invented asparagus staging yourself?

I was not good. For me, stock ships were a good source of inspiration when I was a KSP newbie. And that's why I think there should be some in Career, too. Because Career mode is the default now and newbies tend to try it first.

Don't misunderstand me, i have seen lots of videos, streams, designs and visited the wiki and the forum many times but only with the intention of learn from them, as inspiration as u said, not to copy them and use other's ready to use designs.

i'm not against make the game easier to understand for the new players, or even limit their experience, but career mode have to be like this, it work like this, u have few parts, u have an objective little far from were u reached before and u try as best as u can to reach that goal with what u have. Then, ones succeded, grow bigger and build smarter, as needed to get to the next objective. It's a space program, start from scratch and finish at the end of the solar system, no one told Nasa how to build ship to get to the moon or mars, but they do, with test, time and experience.

I bought this game recently and i don't even played sandbox, i started immidiatly with vanilla career, and i figured out myself how to build rockets, i didn't need any prebuild example, it felt normal to me to unlock parts to go farther with my own ships. I studied the techtree, planning what to unlock and what a discovery will give me, and never felt frustrated by the lack of parts.

Instead i got excited when i unlocked my first large tank, my first solar panel, my first jet engine beacuse that was my reward for my archivements.

I never felt the need of download or copy any design. building and resolving problems it's a big part of the game.

I didn't figured out asparagus myself, i'm not a genius, not even a space engineer, but before i discover it and start use it, i was planning on how to make a thing like that that might work, how i could improve and i tryied many configurations, and launchers in that way, some worked, many others don't.

Even if i never get lost at the start of the game and i enjoyed it without frustration, i agree with u, your intenctions are correct. But IMO this is the wrong way to do that. Already builded ship, doesn't help in this game. Maybe video or interactive tutorial, better defined parts and build/flight assistant will help, but ready to launch ship: i'm totally against them, regardless how simple and incomplete u want to make them.

Of course, I didn't just instinctively know everything. I absorbed numerous videos and articles even before buying the game, learning little tricks and gaining inspiration along the way.

Anyway, I believe that giving players some stock ships in career mode might discourage them from even making their own. If there's already one that can make it to Mun, why would they even bother?

THIS!

Edited January 15, 2014 by Keymaster89

[Kasuha]

Personally, it was a while before I even looked at any of the stock ships.

Nobody would press new users to use them. But not everybody wants to figure out everything. Or has tendency to give up after a few failures.

The first thing I did in the game was trying out the stock crafts. Setting thrust to 100% before first staging was enough of challenge for me at that time, that way I at least knew the problem is in my control, not in the ship.

If there's already one that can make it to Mun, why would they even bother?

It's as dumb argument as the idea that sandbox stock craft discourages players from playing sandbox.

Why bother? Because the stock one is not that great, for instance. Because the purpose of stock craft is not to give you everything you'll ever need in the game, but to give you pointers.

The higher the tech tree the more unfinished and challenging these ships may be. Missing stabilizers, fuel pipes, boosters, too little fuel, too much thrust (breaking up after liftoff) etc. They can be challenge on their own. But always with this stated in the description, in detail yet again corresponding to the advancement level. Eventually the player will start making his own designs becasue it will be actually easier than battling stock craft. But at that point he will already know how to do that.

I like the current sandbox stock craft. It's about exactly what I mean for Career. They're fun to play with, but you soon realize there's something fundamentally wrong with them. And you go make something better. It doesn't discourage anybody.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Kasuha

[John FX]

I disagree as well for most of the already stated reasons. Simply putting a stage by stage Dv and TWR display in the VAB would be MUCH more help for new players. Currently a lot of design is done blind which is very confusing for new players when you are trying to figure out what you have built and what it can do.

[pizzaoverhead]

This is an argument for a more fleshed-out tutorial. I disagree that pre-built ships are required beyond the first few tech levels, but a separate "piloting only" mode would be interesting. You could start off introducing good design patterns and graduate to more interesting scenarios like making a landing with asymmetric engine damage or flameouts, achieving orbit in a craft without batteries where apoapsis is over the night side of the planet for example. You could bring it together as a puzzle mode or a story mode.

[Atoning Unifex]

I think the OP suggestion isn't a bad one, however I also think that the basic aim of the suggestion is to aid new players. I believe that there are better ways of doing this than simply giving access to a few stock ships, via a more guided tutorial approach:

1) Build a specific tutorial mode, which is played (optionally) before the first 'real' game, giving a guided start, with instructions and simple goals (getting a craft off the ground, into space, into a stable orbit etc), and later on more advanced construction pointers.

2) Have a separate tutorial section (maybe in scenarios), with multiple entries, such as building your first craft, advanced staging concepts, orbital transfers etc. This would allow players more freedom over exactly what areas they feel they want to learn.

Both these ideas could contain the suggested tutorial craft suggested in the OP, without having to have them encroach into career mode. My personal favourite is the second approach as it gives greater flexibility, and the individual scenarios might be fun!

[Keymaster89]

Tutorials in the form of scenarios sounds good.

[Kasuha]

So you really think newbies have it too easy when they start playing KSP? Well, I guess nothing can be done about it. It's just that it's not what I am seeing.

[Keymaster89]

It's not too easy, it have to be challenging without look impossible, what i don't like it's that u want to give them the job already done (or half the job, if u want)...

it's kinda playing chess with another guy behind u that keep suggest u the moves... it's just not fun... YOU are supposed to play!

I'm still a newbe too, u know? i never left Kerbin SOI and i had my start not longer that 2 weeks ago... so i have pretty clear in my mind how the first play feel like...

Actually, i really like the idea to a separate tutorial section... will solve the entire question...

Edited January 15, 2014 by Keymaster89

[Bobe]

Counterargument that I neither agree nor disagree with completely

Neither of us can tell what all other players go through while playing the game for the first time, not even the majority. The best we (they) can do is establish a target audience and cater primarily to them. This means some will inevitably find the game frustrating, dumb, boring or even scary. You can't appease everyone, but you can do your best to keep the people you intend to satisfy happy.

With that in mind, I'm not trying to say that career mode should be kept "difficult", but in my opinion perhaps giving them functioning rockets may not be appropriate. Consider that the tutorial does hold your hand and help you build a proper albeit simple rocket. If after that the game notified you that there are pre-made rockets available for use, what do you think those people who aren't exactly engineering enthusiasts will do?

I do agree that in this scenario they will eventually stop using them (I know I'm contradicting my previous post, but that was just a generalization). However, it wouldn't make sense to offer stock ships with parts that aren't unlocked yet (I'm sure you were implying this but let me say it anyway), so they would really only get maybe two rockets and two spaceplanes. Do you think once they unlock new parts, or a whole tier of the tech tree that new ships should also be made available? At that point you'd imagine they got the hang of things.

My subjective opinion, which I'm simply offering as an additional idea, is that there should be more tips rather than showing final products. For instance, a new player might not know what a radial decoupler is and what it's used for. So instead of giving them a new rocket with boosters (which granted would show them) have a little diagram, like a cartoony style blueprint storyboard, showing where they can go, what you can put on them and what happens when they're activated.

I have an image in my head of some miniature silhouetted Kerbals with question marks above their heads looking at the decouplers on a fuel tank, then lightbulbs when boosters are attached to them and then exclamation marks as they run away in terror from the decoupled booster that is flying towards them.

But that's just a fun thought I had, it might require more to process that than to simply experiment with a working example.

I kind of lost my train thought as I started writing this a couple hours ago but got distracted with other things, so I hope that sort of makes sense and adds something to the discussion.

[regex]

This is an argument for a more fleshed-out tutorial. I disagree that pre-built ships are required beyond the first few tech levels, but a separate "piloting only" mode would be interesting. You could start off introducing good design patterns and graduate to more interesting scenarios like making a landing with asymmetric engine damage or flameouts, achieving orbit in a craft without batteries where apoapsis is over the night side of the planet for example. You could bring it together as a puzzle mode or a story mode.

I feel this is a more compelling idea than giving new players pre-built, somewhat incomplete, guess how I want you to fly craft. Add some tutorials for how to strut a large craft and things like that.

[Anton P. Nym]

Tutorials in the form of scenarios sounds good.

I agree; I think the better solution for beginners floundering in Career mode is to beef up the tutorials provided with the game. This would give new players a lot more useful experience with design and piloting (and a gentler entry to the game) than giving them a few stock craft to reverse-engineer.

-- Steve

[pizzaoverhead]

My subjective opinion, which I'm simply offering as an additional idea, is that there should be more tips rather than showing final products. For instance, a new player might not know what a radial decoupler is and what it's used for. So instead of giving them a new rocket with boosters (which granted would show them) have a little diagram, like a cartoony style blueprint storyboard, showing where they can go, what you can put on them and what happens when they're activated.

I have an image in my head of some miniature silhouetted Kerbals with question marks above their heads looking at the decouplers on a fuel tank, then lightbulbs when boosters are attached to them and then exclamation marks as they run away in terror from the decoupled booster that is flying towards them.

But that's just a fun thought I had, it might require more to process that than to simply experiment with a working example.

Early builds of KSP had a getting started blueprint as their loading screen.

Check it out:

These ships don't have to be complete. Actually I think they should be incomplete in a way, such as leave it up to the player to attach science instruments. Or they can be without boosters or engines, leaving it up to the player to finish them up. So they still can leave some room for the challenge. The higher up the tech tree, the more challenging (incomplete) these designs can be.

Seeing how well the BSC challenge series went, I believe the player community would be happy to prepare and offer some designs for that purpose, even if they were only used as placeholders till the game is more complete.

That actually sounds interesting as a separate gamemode or minigame too: Rocket debugging.

You're given a series of increasingly complex rockets that look fine (or not at early levels) and have to pinpoint what's wrong with them. Decouplers below fuel tanks, radial parts attached directly to the centre stack instead of the radial decoupler, missing or backwards fuel lines... I think you're on to something there!

[Morty_jhones]

I like the idea you have sir-jested but having an incomplete design would be for frustrating than helpful. Maybe a better idea would be for there to be a one part sub-orbital ready to go in the ship list. and then as you do contract work then extra pre-built could become available as contract rewards or incentives. so as you do more in game the game afectivly shows you the sort of things that you can do with some of the bit's, as a sort of enfolding help guide.

my idea would be that you start with the Kerbal 1 . sub orbital 1 peace that if used exactly right should get you far enough to land somewhere on the back side on kerbal

offered a contract for ground testing science and com's gear

research basics

offered a contract for altitude testing and the kerbal 2 orbital 3 stage that should 'just' get in to orbit and back safely.

and so on for the 1st 5 research options.

so effectively, yes the game will hold your hand for the start but then after that your on your own. and if all the level 3 shops are different then that would give you. 1 sub orbital, 2 orbital's and a aircraft. none of wich would fly very well or far but would be enough to show the principles involved.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Morty_jhones

[Bobe]

Early builds of KSP had a getting started blueprint as their loading screen.

Check it out:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyxhremiaD1qk0cbw.png

Ha, yeah that's pretty much exactly the kind of thing I had in mind.