Off the Grid [Please Delete This]

[Rhidian]

Edit: Requesting the topic be deleted. My first challenge submission has been poorly thought out, though thanks to this topic I now have a better idea of what a good version of this challenge would be (ie limiting the scope greatly). Thanks.

Challenge: Off the Grid

How well can you fly without the Map?

Edited January 19, 2014 by Rhidian
Requesting Deletion

[jmiki8]

Wow, seems really challenging! Getting into Kerbin, Kerbol and Mün orbit could be easy without map, but the others seem to be almost impossible (for me)! What do you mean by "minimal map usage", by the way? How would you track the usage of the map view? There is no method to get proof. Or is there?

Edited January 19, 2014 by jmiki8

[11of10]

Probably a full FRAPS video recording, start to finish. Now, I must mention that achieving a Kerbol orbit should be relatively easy, with a big enough rocket. Getting back might be tricky tho...

[Hakari]

Using infinite fuel is obviously the best choice because you could then land on every planet and get thousands more points.

[Hakari]

Good luck with 500gb of recorded video.

[Captain Sierra]

Without any info mods . . . I think that takes it from doable to downright impossible. So here is the question, is Raster Prop Moniters and the KSI Multi Function Displays for it allowed? Those make pure IVA missions possible.

[Rhidian]

A clarification of the Map:

1. You may use the Map. I know it would be practically impossible to get to another system without the Map. However, every time you open the Map screen, you have to deduct 25 points from your score.

2. While the Map is open, you may *create* a Maneuver node. You can glean information from it like what time it would take to reach a certain point, how much delta V you would need, as well as the estimated trajectory path. Each node created loses you 5 points.

3. If you leave the Node intact and actually use it when flying with the NavBall open, you deduct a further 20points from the score. If you keep the Map view open while doing so (to see what your orbit eventually ends up being), you lose another 70 points from the score.

I'm not asking the impossible here. I know I wouldn't be able to do this without opening the Map at all. This challenge is about trying to minimize something that is commonly used during all flights, and the more you can go without the Map, the better. I believe making the node to another orbit path, and calculating when/where you reach the time and speed to use without using the actual Node guidance is the best way to rack up points.

Regarding Infinite Fuel, just remember, if you use it, your score is reduced by 80% (as well as by 500 points beforehand). If your pre-penalty score is 5500, it would go to 5000 first, and then end up being 1000 points. I may end up with a separate leader board for it if the option ends up getting incredibly awesome scores somehow, though I think the big challenge would still be on actually getting to all of the planets when minimizing Map usage.

I have allowed multiple crafts to be launched in this challenge (and reward bonuses for successfully refuelling) for those wanting to aim for the all planets bonuses without Infinite fuel.

Edit:

Without any info mods . . . I think that takes it from doable to downright impossible. So here is the question, is Raster Prop Moniters and the KSI Multi Function Displays for it allowed? Those make pure IVA missions possible.

You can use them, so long as they don't provide information only visible from the Map. Notably this would be information about your Apoapsis/Periapsis and Orbital trajectories.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Rhidian

[Flixxbeatz]

I (and probably anyone else that got there interest piqued by your challenge) want to see you try this first.

[Hakari]

Mods used :

Nova Punch 2

Hakari's magic resource generator

Score:

Kerbin>Duna>Eve>Dres>Jool>Eeloo>Moho>Kerbin repeated 3x without manuver nodes: 42,000 points

Visit every planet : 2000 points

Visited celestial body: Kerbin, Kerbol,Duna,Eve,Dres,Jool,Tylo,Eeloo,Moho,Minus: 2000 points

Map screen opened once (and never closed), -25

total score = 45,975 points

Edited January 19, 2014 by Hakari

[Captain Sierra]

-snip-

Edit:

You can use them, so long as they don't provide information only visible from the Map. Notably this would be information about your Apoapsis/Periapsis and Orbital trajectories.

Uh, that's their whole point. Their very reason for existence is to provide all the information KER, the map, and external view can give you, all from IVA. There are videos of people flying apollo missions strictly IVA with it. With that, you can live without the map.

[obi_juan]

I think that this challenge is interesting but:

Is this challenge possible?

Many challenges we see are nearly or literally impossible to achieve, and usually very little thought has gone into them, these challenges just annoy people, waste forum space and show that the submitter hasn't really tried.

So test your challenge yourself first to make sure it is possible, you don't have to be successful but you'll soon know if the challenge has a hope of being completed.

In a challenge like this is necessary that you made and quickly the first submission.

Are you tried to go to the Mün without look at the map?

I think that is possible to do this challenge because I learn how to do it 15 years ago (in my first year in Physics degree)... but for the Scoring I think that you did not try to do it.

Edit:

I just saw the example of Hakari.

Showing the same point like, you did't take in count all the options.

Edited January 19, 2014 by obi_juan

[Rhidian]

My attempt at the challenge:

Javascript is disabled. View full album

My score:

Orbit Kerbin: +200

Orbit Kerbol: +200

Open Map: -25

Create a Maneuver Node: -5

Open Map: -25

Total: 345 points

-----

By the way, doing the entire thing while looking at the map kind of defeats the whole point of the Challenge. So there shall be a new rule: the Map can only be used while at 1x speed.

[Hakari]

I don't see the point of criticizing my grand tour or even making this challenge when you had to use the map twice and create maneuver node just to escape Kerbin? I could've done that blind folded.

Besides, I did do it all on 1x speed.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Hakari

[Rhidian]

I have never said that the Map couldn't be used. That's the biggest misconception of this challenge I believe, one I have been trying to clear up over and over. I'm not going to expect someone to get to another planet without referencing the map at all. I do expect people to reference the map at least once inbetween locations, make a node to get information about their desired trajectory, etc. The question though is how well can you leave these steps out.

As for the scoring, yes, it can be improved. The assumptions that I made when determining the scoring were:

1. The player would look at the map at least once when transitioning from one orbit to another.

2. Nodes would be used to allow the person to know where they should be going, though actually pulling off the maneuver without guidance from the node would be worth more (ie use the mission clock to know when you reach the estimated node time, then look at the map a 2nd time to confirm your trajectory after the maneuver).

3. Should a player use multiple craft, pulling off the docking maneuver would usually require using the map to align trajectories.

In my example, I escaped Kerbin's SOI without using the map. After confirming with the Orbit/altitude change that I was orbiting Kerbol, *then* I opened the map to try and plot a course towards Eve (which I didn't have enough fuel for). I made the node, looked at the time requirement, closed the node (and the map), and tried warping to the estimated mission time. I overshot the time, tried to initiate the retrograde burn, and eventually checked the map when near the lower limits of my fuel tank.

Now, if I had used the node fully without looking at the mission clock at all (assuming I had the fuel to pull off the maneuver), my trajectory would have been more efficient. If I used Map mode to adjust the trajectory I ended up with to actually intercept Eve, that would have been fine, except it would still cost me points for doing so. The point of the challenge isn't to abandon the Map completely, it's to see how well you can do when not taking advantage of the map.

Now, the scoring system does need to be changed somehow. So how would you change it?

[Hakari]

I wouldn't bother trying to change a boring pointless broken challenge. Playing the game without help on orbital mechanics is like playing super mario with a broken controller.

[leafty]

You should only allow sneak peeks to the map, not more than say 1 minute to avoid the exploit shown by Hakari. Even better, deduce points based on the time spent on map view (would need video subs though).

[AmpsterMan]

Locked the thread at OP's Request.