What are the most important things you've learned about playing KSP to pass on?

[ShadowDragon8685]

I'm really starting to get annoyed hearing people poo-poo MechJeb.

If I wanted to learn to fly a rocket for real, I'd be sending my CV to NASA. Or playing Orbiter.

Doing things the manual way sucks, especially given the time invested in a single mission and that it can all come to an explosive halt at the very end because I bollocksed up a tricky maneuver with the keyboards. More importantly, there's a crap-top of complex maths behind the scenes that not only do I not know how to do myself (watching Scott Manley illustrate some basic orbital mechanics on paper made my head go aaaaagh!,) even if I did, KSP does not give me the tools I would need to make use of that math - things like a precise Hohmann transfer, for instance.

Without MechJeb, I'd be lucky to manage to make an orbit, let alone an orbit with an apoapsis and periapsis within 10K of each other, and I could definitely forget about an orbit at the actual inclination I want. Maneuver nodes are practically no help whatsoever, because they require fiddling with the bloody awful maneuver node interface rather than, say, letting me input a maneuver to circularize my orbit at apoapsis, let alone getting any kind of an inclination change done without it making my orbit go all wonky to hell.

So please, please please stop trying to give "don't use the one mod that you literally couldn't play Kerbal Space Program without" and "learn to do it without the numbers, you big baby," as advice, because they're not advice. They're as helpful as "Just cheer the hell up already!" is to someone struggling with grief and/or chronic depression, or "just find a job, you lazy bum!" to someone grappling with chronic unemployment.

So there, I'll make that some serious advice for newbies: Don't pass down judgmental "advice" based on telling them not to do things they find work for them.

[SSSPutnik]

I like one quote I saw on the subject of MechJeb.

"Without MechJeb you can be a pilot, with MechJeb you can be Captain"

Its personal choice and by the way recently there was a big thread on top 10 lessons KSP players need to know.

[Kasuha]

I don't want to start a flame war, but I highly disagree with the Mechjeb. I am proficient at, well, everything, because I took the time to learn how to do everything systematically and in a manner that works. I wouldn't want to play a game about spaceflight if the game flew for me, right? I think I have the unfair advantage of being natural capable of seeing what will work.

I am playing with no mods ever since I started with KSP but I don't see any problem with MechJeb. It's a single-player game and everyone is supposed to have fun the way they prefer.

Where I see problem are people who grew addicted to MechJeb and then come to forums with claims like "KSP is unplayable without MechJeb" or "install MechJeb" as an universal answer to all problems. Undoubtedly, MechJeb makes the game easier. And there are people who need it. And it's ok if they use it. But there are also smart people willing to learn out there who don't need MechJeb to have fun in the game. And making them install MechJeb as the first thing is spoiling a lot of fun for them. "Install MechJeb" should be the last resort, not the universal answer. That's my opinion.

[SSSPutnik]

I can see this thread getting closed soon

[Pecan]

I can see this thread getting closed soon

IBTL:

Commercial airlines have qualified pilots.

Commercial airliners have auto-pilots.

Commercial airline pilots get some sleep during long-haul flights while the auto-pilot does the boring bit.

Commercial airports generally won't allow commercial airliners to land manually. ["Heavy" planes, except by arrangement]

Even most yacht harbours discourage maneuvering and docking under sail, instead of engine. [To the chagrin of many purists]

[theend3r]

Without MechJeb, I'd be lucky to manage to make an orbit, let alone an orbit with an apoapsis and periapsis within 10K of each other, and I could definitely forget about an orbit at the actual inclination I want. Maneuver nodes are practically no help whatsoever, because they require fiddling with the bloody awful maneuver node interface rather than, say, letting me input a maneuver to circularize my orbit at apoapsis, let alone getting any kind of an inclination change done without it making my orbit go all wonky to hell.

I personally use Mechjeb but only because I've done all that a hunded times and can do it easily and reliably so it became just a boring tedium. Using Mechjeb because you can't do the flying yourself is something I'd never do since I like learning new things but to each his own.

[Kasuha]

IBTL:

Commercial airlines have qualified pilots.

Commercial airliners have auto-pilots.

Commercial airline pilots get some sleep during long-haul flights while the auto-pilot does the boring bit.

Commercial airports generally won't allow commercial airliners to land manually. ["Heavy" planes, except by arrangement]

Even most yacht harbours discourage maneuvering and docking under sail, instead of engine. [To the chagrin of many purists]

Even pilots receive extensive training for landing without autopilot and they are supposed to be able to land without autopilot every time the situation requires it.

Ground control has no word in enforcing the pilot to use autopilot. It's there as (usually preferred) option but it's always only pilot's decision (and responsibility) what landing method he will use.

KSP is a game and it's always up to the individual what he does and what he doesn't see as fun. You can't cause any damage by crashing your ships, except damage to your own creations.

[WhiteKnuckle]

Without MechJeb, I'd be lucky to manage to make an orbit, let alone an orbit with an apoapsis and periapsis within 10K of each other, and I could definitely forget about an orbit at the actual inclination I want. Maneuver nodes are practically no help whatsoever, because they require fiddling with the bloody awful maneuver node interface rather than, say, letting me input a maneuver to circularize my orbit at apoapsis, let alone getting any kind of an inclination change done without it making my orbit go all wonky to hell.

So please, please please stop trying to give "don't use the one mod that you literally couldn't play Kerbal Space Program without" and "learn to do it without the numbers, you big baby," as advice, because they're not advice. They're as helpful as "Just cheer the hell up already!" is to someone struggling with grief and/or chronic depression, or "just find a job, you lazy bum!" to someone grappling with chronic unemployment.

So there, I'll make that some serious advice for newbies: Don't pass down judgmental "advice" based on telling them not to do things they find work for them.

Ok, no insults here, I'll teach you how to get a circularised orbit very easily using the maneuver node.

1. Launch from KSC using the standard method. Go into map mode when you've got most/all of your staging done. Mouse over the apoapsis node and cut your engines when it reaches the height you want your orbit to be at (lets say 75km).

2. Orientate the map view so you're looking straight down at Kerbin, with your apoapsis at the six o'clock position. Make a maneuver node at apoapsis. Pull on the green prograde marker slowly (this is the key to making accurate nodes).

3. As you pull the prograde marker watch your orbit extend. Eventually a periapsis node will show up at roughly the 12 o'clock position. Continue to pull the prograde marker slowly. As the periapsis and apoapsis heights get close to equal they will start to move, if you pull too long they will actually swap position. You want to stop pulling when they are halfway swapped, with one marker at the 3 o'clock position and the other at 9 o'clock.

4. Burn the maneuver node, enjoy your nearly perfect circularised orbit.

After you've done it a few times you'll be able to set up a node in 5-10 seconds. Probably about as long as it takes to pull up MJ and type in what you want it to do.

Cheers.

[Taki117]

If there's one thing I've learned it's this: "Never give up, Never surrender! Damn the Resonance Cannons! FULL SPEED AHEAD!"

[Roxette]

... how to get a circularised orbit very easily using the maneuver node. ...

and here's an easy way to do it without a maneuver node ...

First stage is the same - climb and head east until desired apoapsis is shown, additional small burns if necessary to keep the apoapsis close to the same figure.

Point the rocket East, spin it so the navball horizon is horizontal or vertical, but not angled.

Select map view, zoom right in with the focus (centred) on the vessel marker, as the apoapsis marker appears and approaches the vessel, apply full power, then adjust the attitude to keep just behind apoapsis, without letting it run away. As the periapsis becomes a positive figure only small burns will be needed, and the marker will get more jittery. As the orbit reaches circularity, the Ap and Pe markers will suddenly swap positions, and you're there. If you're short on thrust to weight ratio, it's better to start the burn earlier to avoid having to adjust the angle too far to maintain the altitude.

[KerbMav]

KSP is a game and it's always up to the individual what he does and what he doesn't see as fun.

I think this here is kinda related and somewhat fitting.

[Monger]

Doing things the manual way sucks, especially given the time invested in a single mission and that it can all come to an explosive halt at the very end because I bollocksed up a tricky maneuver with the keyboards.

More importantly, there's a crap-top of complex maths behind the scenes that not only do I not know how to do myself (watching Scott Manley illustrate some basic orbital mechanics on paper made my head go aaaaagh!,) even if I did, KSP does not give me the tools I would need to make use of that math - things like a precise Hohmann transfer, for instance.

Come on, it really isn't that hard. KSP has significantly less controls you need to manage than most of the airplane simulators out there (including WarThunder). Most of them don't have autopilots either, because it simply wouldn't be fun.

This is actually one of the beautiful things about KSP: you don't have to know what a Hohman transfer is, you don't have to calculate the optimal path (or in fact, anything else). You don't have to be especially greedy with your fuel, KSP easily forgives quite a few errors. If you miss your rendezvous, just fix your course, activate time acceleration and try again. If you bump into your space station while docking, realign both crafts and try again. Not all docking manoeuvres are fatal. Just take your time. There are very few simulations out there where you can fail this much without getting punished for it.

[wmheric]

IMO the most important point in KSP: it is orbital mechanics, not driving on the road. If you want to get to a place, you can't just hit the pedal and get there; you don't change direction by just steering; we don't really have much "control" in this case, and indeed we don't -- essentially we are all slaves of gravity, we make a small change here, and hope that gravity will gradually bring you to the correct place. In the atmosphere, you may be flying a plane, but once in orbit, strictly speaking you are not flying anything; you just change something at a certain point, and you can only let gravity does its job. Everything takes time in this game; the only thing you can control is how well you perform your maneuver, and once it is done you can only wait (time-warp) for it to happen. It's not like a car racing game. So it is very important to invest time to perfect your maneuver, and it is the nature of space travel. Knowing some maths does open up a lot of possibilities, but KSP does provide enough info readouts for most basic missions. And in fact, understanding how your action affects your orbit is more important than knowing a lot of jargons and just plugging numbers in each of them.

[Alchemist]

- Understand what happens and how it happens. That's the main rule of engineering. Blindly following guidelines won't get you far past where they end.

- Autopilots can be a good source of valuable concepts. If it does something better than you, try to understand how it does this and why it's better.

- MechJeb is okay as long as you getting fun. If it becomes boring it may be better to play without. If you start fighting it, you have overgrown it. (Personally I once participated in a challenge that required MJ. Got MJ overdose, don't touch it since then)

- It's best to design "from the top": start with the question "what I need to bring there and for what else it can be used". This may lead to unexpectedly minimalistic solutions. Nuclear lander doesn't make your interplanetary ship smaller, doing multiple landings and using it's engines for the interplanetary transfers does.

- If the slingshot failed to get you into desired orbit, don't forget you're still on trajectory that intersects the same body's orbit - adjust your period and get your second slingshot! You can't turn 180 degrees in 1 go, but you can do it in several.

[Wooks]

Love all the advice, sums up my own experience. Two from my own book would be:

- LEARN TO READ THE NAV BALL. Seriously, this is what helped me unlock the ability to perform orbits and navigate through space.

- Don´t install mods until you understand the game at the core mechanics.

My two cents (tl;dr) about MechJeb: Its an autoplay button.

There. I said it. And is true. I started as green as anyone in this game, knowing nothing about anything, facing words like "periapsis" and "DeltaV" and "perigee", scratching my head in confusion.

One year later I can do things that

: I can launch absurd contraptions that make orbit and can transfer anywhere in the Kerbal system,

, l

in any planet or moon I want, fly upside down planes under control... backwards... and land safely. Is the most fun I´ve had with a sandbox game in ages, and it doesn´t gets old. All this without mods or cheats, just vanilla.

Why would I play a game that has a button to automatically "win" the game? The reward of landing on the Mun without crashing for the first time, all by yourself, without mods or cheats is something you can´t properly explain until you do it for yourself.

I´m under the impression that installing MechJeb right after the game and playing with it would have dissipated the challenge, the discovery process, it would have eliminated the frustration of

and

and trying and overshoot / undershoot / crash my ships, depriving me of the need to make a killer comeback with a vengeance.

Look, I know the game looks daunting at the beginning, it could use a better tutorial for beginners, and in the long run it could have more built in information and data output... but, for me, anything that gives you the chance to press a button and "win" is not fun.

Again, this is a sandbox with mods, and to each their own: play it the way you like.

I like it hardcore.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Wooks

[ShadowDragon8685]

Love all the advice, sums up my own experience.

My two cents about MechJeb: Its an autoplay button.

There. I said it. And is true.

Why would I play a game that has a button to automatically "win" the game? The reward of landing on the Mun without crashing for the first time, all by yourself, and without mods or cheats is something you can´t properly explain until you do it for yourself.

Yes, the game could have more built in information and data output, and MechJeb does that... but again, for me anything that gives you the chance to press a button and "win" is not fun.

Once again, someone else telling people not to play the way they want to play. I'm starting to get annoyed with it. No, I'm starting to get angry with it.

MechJeb is hardly a "Win" button. If you don't build your rocket right, MechJeb won't warp you to your destination instantly and grant you 10,000,000 Science. MechJeb can't really help you make a fuel-efficient short hop on Minmus or the Mun, because those aren't things it's good at. MechJeb can't instantly fix your broken design. What MechJeb can do is make sure you don't get frustrated at a design that can work if only you could keep it on track but you can't because you're not a computer. It can get you down onto the surface of an airless rock that you couldn't land on yourself because the shift and control keys are too sloooooow to actually do what you need done when fast throttle changes are called for. It can keep the nose of your craft pointing the way it's supposed to be pointing while you work out how in all the holy frozen hells to get a ship back to Kerbin with less than half the fuel you expected to have on your return trip.

MechJeb is an autopilot. It is not "Autoplay." MechJeb will not scan my parts list, assemble a perfectly efficient, aesthetically pleasing craft with all the capabilities I require, wheel it out to the launch pad automatically, send it up, set its course, fly to wherever, run the missions I want to do, land the lander, hop Jeb out to have him scoop up some surface samples, plant a flag, write a pithy and long flag plaque for me, hop Jeb back in the lander, fly it back up, rendevous with the return stage, dock, jettison the no-longer-nessessary bits of the lander, set a return course, bring Jeb and the boys down in a biome they haven't gotten soil samples or EVA reports from yet, and pull everyone back to KSC to collect the sweet, sweet Science.

That is what playing KSP is all about. MechJeb automates some of the bits of it that people find more tedious or unpleasantly difficult. MechJeb can make a Hohman Transfer for you, it can't build the craft to get there, nor can it decide where to go. It's an autopilot, nothing more. It's not an "Autoplay" button. It is most definitely not a "Win" button, as several debris fields littering the surface of Kerbin and its satellites, incorporating that lovely, nifty radial MechJeb box will attest.

[Wooks]

words

You quoted my incomplete answer while I was editing, please check back and make your judgement from there. Also I´m not telling anyone to do what I want, I´m sharing my experience and advicing over it.

Also you can install the game, download a proven ship from the forums, tell MechJeb to do the work and bam, autoplay and autowin. No fun.

Now seriously: installing mods early on the game can seriously affect the learning curve of the game: the basics of orbital mechanics and astrodynamics. Mods should be used only when you have mastered the techniques by yourself. I agree, sometimes performing the same maneuvers over and over again can be boring, and having an automated aid for experienced players surely is handy, but it would be ill advised to use it without knowing to perform them by yourself.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Wooks

[kBob]

As someone who used to repair computer for many years I should learn to follow my own advise: if you're having weird problems reset it or in this case close and reload KSP if something you were doing worked and you didn't change anything and it stops working consistently...it is alpha after all.

[Ravenchant]

Doing things the manual way sucks

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. (And you are fully entitled to it)

Come on, it really isn't that hard. KSP has significantly less controls you need to manage than most of the airplane simulators out there (including WarThunder). Most of them don't have autopilots either, because it simply wouldn't be fun.

Agreed, but War Thunder is as far from simulators as a self-parking, automatic transmission car is from rally racing.

Not to mention that a decent chunk of the sim community is apparently more than happy to punch numbers into the flight director and essentially let the plane fly itself (I'm looking at you, tubeliner fans!).

[Kasuha]

My two cents (tl;dr) about MechJeb: Its an autoplay button.

MechJeb is hardly a "Win" button.

Both are undeniably true.

What needs to be said is, MechJeb is autoplay for some - but not all - aspects of the game. And whether you consider these aspects important or not is matter of personal opinion. MechJeb will not plan your mission, MechJeb will not design your ships. Some people simply don't enjoy doing orbital maneuvers and some people don't have what it takes to do them right. If MechJeb allows these people to play KSP and enjoy its other aspects, it's good.

And of course, KSP as is has no "win" condition, so winning consists of whatever you put ahead of yourself as your personal final target, if you need to have one. That may change with the Career game, but never with the Sandbox game.

Learning orbital mechanics is part of the game and KSP provides them in extremely intuitive, easy to grasp way. Compared to reality, at least. In my opinion everybody should get a chance at learning it before he presses that autoplay button, giving up on great deal of what other players consider fun. But if he does so, it's ok. There is a lot of other kinds of fun in the game as well and even people who fail at orbital mechanics should get their chance to access the rest of it. Maybe if they find the game fun that way and become bored by it later, they may even turn MechJeb off and try playing without it.

That's why I believe MechJeb should be integrated to core game with all its features - and appropriate warnings that if you use it, you're giving up on some of key aspects of the game.

[Dispatcher]

I'm sure to repeat some things already mentioned.

Use both the VAB and SPH. Build rockets, planes, rovers, boats; and whatever combinations you can think of. Its fun.

Include at least 1 battery and some solar panels (at least 3 symmetrically on rockets and 2 on planes, rovers and boats). I put panels and batteries on all but the launch stages.

Once you unlock nuclear power cells, use at least 1 when building craft for outer planets (less solar energy).

Some engines generate electricity.

Use struts.

Kerbal Engineer helps cut down on design time (if you use it).

Install lights on the command pod such that you can see where you are landing at target and see where you will 'chute down to upon return (also for powered return landings).

Plan missions to other worlds' moons to include enough dV to and from the host planet's low orbit.

Do science everywhere (including burning reentries).

Learn from errors and accidents. My Kerbol system is strewn with kerbalnauts stranded on planets, moons and in various and sundry orbits.

If you can't rescue a kerbalnaut, transmit all the science you can.

Use Protractor.

Persistence rewards you!

Edited February 1, 2014 by Dispatcher

[Pecan]

Even pilots receive extensive training for landing without autopilot and they are supposed to be able to land without autopilot every time the situation requires it.

Ground control has no word in enforcing the pilot to use autopilot. It's there as (usually preferred) option but it's always only pilot's decision (and responsibility) what landing method he will use.

KSP is a game and it's always up to the individual what he does and what he doesn't see as fun. You can't cause any damage by crashing your ships, except damage to your own creations.

I don't think we disagree at all, I was just pointing out that qualified, experienced, professional people are expected to use the aids available to them. This does not remove the responsibility they have - that makes them qualified in the first place - of knowing how to do these things without the aids. The pilot of a plane is captain of the ship and the, er, captain of a yacht is, erm, captain of the ship; final responsibility must rest with them as to what they will do and how. ;-0 Something to consider for those that think some people are having fun the wrong way [That's a great expression that I only read in these forums. Who claims it?]

As Wooks said "sometimes performing the same maneuvers over and over again can be boring, and having an automated aid for experienced players surely is handy, but it would be ill advised to use it without knowing to perform them by yourself." [my underlining].

And not only are you likely to do worse relying on aids; you're missing out on a lot of fun too - your comment "... appropriate warnings that if you use it, you're giving up on some of key aspects of the game."

Back on topic:

Don't forget a ladder. Again!

Edited January 30, 2014 by Pecan

[match]

There are no straight lines in space.

[ShadowDragon8685]

I don't think we disagree at all, I was just pointing out that qualified, experienced, professional people are expected to use the aids available to them. This does not remove the responsibility they have - that makes them qualified in the first place - of knowing how to do these things without the aids. The pilot of a plane is captain of the ship and the, er, captain of a yacht is, erm, captain of the ship; final responsibility must rest with them as to what they will do and how. ;-0 Something to consider for those that think some people are having fun the wrong way [That's a great expression that I only read in these forums. Who claims it?]

I feel required to point out that the captain of a ship does not nessessarily know how to do everything required to make that ship operate. He may not be able to pilot the ship, or repair the engines/trim the sails by himself. The captain's job is to oversee everyone whose job it is to do all of that. He's required to know enough to get his job done, but you can't just take the captain of the ship and put him on any given task and expect it will work out.

Furthermore, there are distinctions between the commander of a vessel (traditionally a captain, but also possibly called a skipper or, in unusual circumstances, a coxswain might hold the position,) and the master. (Also the owner as well, but in this case the owner is irrelevant.) The master of a ship makes the big decisions - the master is the one who says "We're sailing this boat to Shanghai," or "we're sailing for Portland." The captain is the one who organizes it all, and the navigator and pilot are the ones who set the course and apply the throttle.

I'm really, really kind of ****e at setting a course on my own, and even worse at applying the throttle except under the most forgiving of conditions, and by that I mean Minmus. That doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to play KSP until I "get over it." That's what MechJeb does - it's a handy dandy pilot and navigator I can give orders to and take over from when and if I have the skills to do it... Or when and if I realize I'm trying to dock a lander to a mothership and I haven't unlocked the auto-dock feature yet. (That was hairy, and sketchy as all hell 'cause the lander wasn't anything resembling RCS-balanced, but kinda fun, too. I never would have been able to do it without MJ to make a hohman transfer to put me within 200m of the mothership, though.)

As Wooks said "sometimes performing the same maneuvers over and over again can be boring, and having an automated aid for experienced players surely is handy, but it would be ill advised to use it without knowing to perform them by yourself." [my underlining].

I know what MJ is doing, but with that stupid navball interface - and the fact that sometimes you're coming up on a parabolic apoapsis far, far too fast for me to get a maneuver planned using the damn thing and orient the craft appropriately - I'd be lucky to get anything done. Not to mention the fact that the navball isn't very helpful, I certainly can't find a heading on it. I'm lucky if I can orientate to the horizon using it, forget about "finding east" on it, and most of what I know about which icons on the damn thing mean what is because MJ actually spells out in english what it's tracking when it orients to an icon.

Don't forget a ladder. Again!

You only need a ladder when you're going somewhere with gravy heavy enough you can't just RCS up to the hatch.

Also, some experience from me: Kerbs tend to explode when they touch land and are exceeding a velocity threshold. It doesn't actually matter what rate they were approaching the ground, just that they're going too fast in any direction. So you can be skimming the ground very quickly and only clip it with a Kerb's toe, and he'll explode as if he'd rode a solid rocket booster straight into the dirt.

Edited January 30, 2014 by ShadowDragon8685

[Kasuha]

I know what MJ is doing, but with that stupid navball interface - and the fact that sometimes you're coming up on a parabolic apoapsis far, far too fast for me to get a maneuver planned using the damn thing and orient the craft appropriately - I'd be lucky to get anything done. Not to mention the fact that the navball isn't very helpful, I certainly can't find a heading on it. I'm lucky if I can orientate to the horizon using it, forget about "finding east" on it, and most of what I know about which icons on the damn thing mean what is because MJ actually spells out in english what it's tracking when it orients to an icon.

One thing I need to say, KSP navball certainly isn't stupid. There are a few things that could be improved on it but in general it's an ultimate navigating device. It's fine by me if you didn't spend enough effort to learn how it works and how to use it using available sources (forums/tutorials/youtube/wiki) but you shouldn't blame the navball for it.