Wormholes for interestellar travel

[tetryds]

Right, so, being activelly against any sort of FTL drives, super overpowered rocketry and any sort of tech that does not exist nor is possible IRL, the only possibility of managing to make an interestellar travel is using wormholes.

As seeing that a "proven on paper" tech works well at KSP (AKA R.A.P.I.E.R.), a mathematically and relativistic proven effect could in fact be in the game.

I can think of it being made in the game in two ways:

-A SOI with very low gravity, and you must pass within a limited distance from the center and with a certain speed for getting to the other side.

-A portal, a sphere with no gravity that you must reach in order to pass.

When you pass it you must be at any random ultra angled orbit or on a freefall for faceplant, then you have to manage to work around the situation.

Map view (M) would only show the star and your orbit at first, you will need scanners etc. to find out where are the planets and what they look like.

Basically discover the new star system.

How many systems the wormholes could lead to is up to the devs if this gets implemented.

Wormholes can be periodic, like show up for 1 week every two weeks or toggle yearly.

That is also up to how this would be implemented

Then, we should take in account for some things:

1- It/they must be really hard to find, and as hard I mean near (when you think it is) end game.

2- Probes require a very high gain antenna aimed at the wormhole in order to be controlled past it.

3- Probes that pass it will get uncontrollable imediatelly when the wormhole closes (signal won't pass the hole).

4- It/they can appear and disapear on different places at different times (though i would rather nowhere near surfaces of planets).

5- You will need a complex infrastructure in order to find them and predict when they will happen.

6- You have no clue where you going to, your tracking station is useless, unless...

7- You map the new star system and manage to go back with the data (remember that it can disapear within a certain time, maybe years, but still)

8- Have orbits of high difficulty, so that you'd have to preform (for example) solar orbit rendezvous in order to do interstellar travel.

9- Come on the other side so you have to travel from the outside in, as opposed to starting from Kerbin and going out.

10- Ship speed should be conserved when you pass through the workhole.

This idea is very fresh and far from polished, but I guess its undesrstandable.

Anything that you see which could fit better please comment and I may change this.

BTW, i'm not talking about how they work or are created, as SABRE still have several technical issues to be solved before it can possibly work, but the engine is in the game.

I'm talking about the natural event of the appearance of that hole, even though its not completelly possible to happen IRL (maybe it is, who knows?).

Edited February 7, 2014 by tetryds

[JimmyAgent007]

Ive been thinking about this for a while and mentioned it a few times just today. I think it would be best to always have it 'on' so we dont have to get annoyed at missing launch windows and such but be in a very difficult orbit like a polar one around the sun. The only way you can get it on your tracking station is to put a probe near it. As for using it, a simple docking should work well enough. Maybe require a special nosecone to allow passage. I agree with probes not working, at least at first. If you set up relay sats on both ends then why not. To go to different systems you can 'calibrate' the nose cone to take you to the same system or 'find' a new one. These are my thoughts so far.

[tetryds]

Or maybe if you pass it at different speeds you get to different places?

Would add a new difficult taste to it.

Keep in mind that only experienced players will try this.

[Nightwinds]

I think you should lose contact with the probes if they get sent through, they just kind of disappear and then reappear as really faint radio transmissions, but only if you have radio transmitters on the probe, and then you have to upgrade the tracking center in order to re-attain full contact and control of the probe.

[Serratus]

Right, so, being activelly against any sort of FTL drives, super overpowered rocketry and any sort of tech that does not exist nor is possible IRL, the only possibility of managing to make an interestellar travel is using wormholes.

Now You guys at "no-FTL" crowd just became ridiculous hypocrites... If this is a joke then it's not funny.

[problemecium]

Why not just have the game transport you to a new star system whenever you go a certain distance from Kerbol? These could maybe be saved as each gets generated, along with vectors indicating which directions they're in. Kinda a bit like Spore, although hopefully we players will be sane enough not to discover 3000 new star systems and break our hard drives.

[tetryds]

Now You guys at "no-FTL" crowd just became ridiculous hypocrites... If this is a joke then it's not funny.

I'm not talking about creating wormholes, I'm talking about finding them.

They are extremelly exotic and haven't been found yet, but that does not mean that one cannot be within our solar system range right now (remember sun is moving, but the hole doesn't need to move in KSP).

A not concrete yet accepted and physically proven theory is far different from FTL drive, the term "Faster Than Light" itself is already physically impossible (under the known physics).

And that there is no way to prove or reproduce an Alcubiere Drive with current technology.

Though, driving a ship through a hole is pretty doable.

If we had found any wormhole nearby we would have already sent something through it (and we still did not bring manned pods to other planets).

Edit: Yes, i thought about spore when having this idea, it would be something simmilar to how wormholes work there, but more strict too.

Edited February 6, 2014 by tetryds

[Skyler4856]

I'm not talking about creating wormholes, I'm talking about finding them.

They are extremelly exotic and haven't been found yet, but that does not mean that one cannot be within our solar system range right now (remember sun is moving, but the hole doesn't need to move in KSP).

A not concrete yet accepted and physically proven theory is far different from FTL drive, the term "Faster Than Light" itself is already physically impossible (under the known physics).

And that there is no way to prove or reproduce an Alcubiere Drive with current technology.

Though, driving a ship through a hole is pretty doable.

If we had found any wormhole nearby we would have already sent something through it (and we still did not bring manned pods to other planets).

Edit: Yes, i thought about spore when having this idea, it would be something simmilar to how wormholes work there, but more strict too.

To be fair even Einstein-Rosen bridges require exotic matter to stay open, otherwise they are open for less than a Planck length of time.

This Exotic matter could also be used to build an Alcubierre drive as well.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Skyler4856

[nholzric]

Now You guys at "no-FTL" crowd just became ridiculous hypocrites... If this is a joke then it's not funny.

This. "interstellar travel using wormholes" doesn't sound any more plausible than many FTL schemes, "super overpowered rocketry", or other "tech that does not exist nor is possible IRL". If you want wormholes, that's cool, I'm sure it will not be added, maybe someone will make a mod or something. But just FYI, travel through wormholes is safely in the same category of FTL and other fanciful tech.

[tetryds]

I'm not so sure it will not be added, its the best solution among all the ones mentioned to make interestellar travel viable.

And yes, it sounds a lot more plausible by the simple fact that you do not create them, they just exist.

It doesn't matter if what is required IRL to keep it open is the same for an Alc-drive, you are not handling that exotic matter.

You didn't seem to try to understand my points and just blindly deny my idea just because I'm against FTL drives.

If we want other star systems, this is the best of evils, that is what I'm talking about here.

And it would not break the balance of the game.

Edited February 6, 2014 by tetryds

[JimmyAgent007]

I think the difference is that a wormhole isnt just some part you can slap on and pop to duna and back with minimal effort. wormhole or not, we just dont want a magic FTL drive.

The PC Gamer interview "Falange: Right, because you’re talking about interstellar distances, which means time-warp isn't enough anymore, no matter how fast you’re going. Now you need some sort of warp drive, and that falls into the realm of sci-fi. And that then requires us to break the laws of physics, which would in fact make everything much trickier."

The point of this thread is to figure out a way to get around that. Wormholes are just believable enough that it may work as a workaround.

So rather than resort to name calling why not help try to arrive at a workable solution. Maybe wormholes are not the solution but lets hear about other methods rather than boost your ego by hurling insults. Nobody is forcing you to post.

[Supernovy]

I'd like the wormholes to be in orbits of increasing difficulty, so that you'd have to preform (for example) solar orbit rendezvous in order to do interstellar travel. My reasoning is that rendezvous is one of the hardest things you can do in game, so makes sense to be the barrier to unlocking an entirely new system.

This way, you'd get plopped in some orbit on the other side. You'd have to travel from the outside in, as opposed to starting from Kerbin and going out. I think each wormhole would go to a different system, and that speed would be conserved as you go through them. Ship speed that is, I don't want you to come out at a wonky angle because the two ends of the wormhole were at different inclination orbits.

Also, I like wormholes.

[tetryds]

Great ideas, Supernovy, added them!

[Strikerklm96]

I dont understand why everyone thinks FTL has to be overpowered. Imagine an FTL drive the size of an Jumbo64 Fuel tank that weighs 50 and requires tons of electric charge and or fuel to activate once. It can only be activated in interstellar space, in other words, you have to get this monster and its requirements into an escape trajectory of the sun. Then and only then can you activate it, where it will put you on the edge of interstellar space of another solar system. Even after all that you have to now maneuver into alignment with those planets.

And for those looking for reasoning as to why it can't be activated near the sun: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliosphere

Edited February 7, 2014 by Strikerklm96

[Skyler4856]

I'm not so sure it will not be added, its the best solution among all the ones mentioned to make interestellar travel viable.

And yes, it sounds a lot more plausible by the simple fact that you do not create them, they just exist.

It doesn't matter if what is required IRL to keep it open is the same for an Alc-drive, you are not handling that exotic matter.

You didn't seem to try to understand my points and just blindly deny my idea just because I'm against FTL drives.

If we want other star systems, this is the best of evils, that is what I'm talking about here.

And it would not break the balance of the game.

Are you responding to my comment?

[plainawesome]

Wormholes? More like lagholes . Although seriously, that's a very good idea.

[The Destroyer]

I'd like the wormholes to be in orbits of increasing difficulty, so that you'd have to preform (for example) solar orbit rendezvous in order to do interstellar travel. My reasoning is that rendezvous is one of the hardest things you can do in game, so makes sense to be the barrier to unlocking an entirely new system.

This way, you'd get plopped in some orbit on the other side. You'd have to travel from the outside in, as opposed to starting from Kerbin and going out. I think each wormhole would go to a different system, and that speed would be conserved as you go through them. Ship speed that is, I don't want you to come out at a wonky angle because the two ends of the wormhole were at different inclination orbits.

Also, I like wormholes.

Very good idea. Although, rendevous isn't too hard, with the fancy manuvere nodes and "closest approach". Try rendevousing in 0.14

But on a serious note, that would be a big challenge. I remember my first solar rendevous. It was hard, but I made it. Not to mention Jeb only had a year of Oxygen remaining...

[jwenting]

an even better idea is to read the what not to suggest list (and yes, despite you trying to wormhole your way out of it being a "suggestion" by using the "discussion" tag, it is just that).

[Aghanim]

Wormhole is FTL by definition, its just point to point and natural (is there even any natural wormhole? How about its gravitational influence?)

KSPI warp drive implementation is pretty much balanced, if there isn't any obscenely high dV high thrust engine (like DT Vista drive)

[Skyler4856]

Wormhole is FTL by definition, its just point to point and natural (is there even any natural wormhole? How about its gravitational influence?)

A wormhole isn't faster than light, it's just a shortcut through space, or another passage.

[JimmyAgent007]

an even better idea is to read the what not to suggest list (and yes, despite you trying to wormhole your way out of it being a "suggestion" by using the "discussion" tag, it is just that).

we have a mod posting in this discussion so obviously he doesnt consider this thread a bad thing

[tetryds]

an even better idea is to read the what not to suggest list (and yes, despite you trying to wormhole your way out of it being a "suggestion" by using the "discussion" tag, it is just that).

You should read the WNS more carefully.

Even marked as a suggestion, it would not fall under the WNS list.

And yeah, a wormhole is not FTL.

you are not cruising all the space you would on a "straight line" in our dimensions, you just reaching another place within smaller distance.

KSPI is a mod for a reason.

Also, we not talking about FTL drives here, we talking about ways to make interestellar travel viable.

If you have any better idea or think about any way to improve this one please tell us, FTL discussion here is pointless.

[Wahgineer]

Warp drive: Uses a bubble of exotic matter to warp space-time so that it can exceed the speed of light.

Wormhole: a black hole lined with exotic matter that shortens the distance between to distant points, effectively allowing a ship to travel at super luminal speeds.

I don't see a difference.

From what I know, wormholes don't occur naturally. They are created by lining the interior of a black hole with colossal amounts of exotic matter. But in order for it to work, the black hole needs to have a stable connection with a white hole. Afterwards, you can only go from one place to another.

Warp drives use a far smaller amount of Exotic matter to create a bubble around itself. While it takes significantly longer than a wormhole, it has the benefit of not being limited to only one destination. Since it needs to warp space around it, it can not function deep within a gravity well. The drive also has power limitations, range limitations, and speed limitations, while being possible to build with near future tech. These are all balancing factors that make a warp drive much more plausible as an endgame form of interstellar travel.

[Strikerklm96]

You can not exceed the speed of light in a vacuum, any FTL, regardless of how it does it, would result in warping space time so it appears as though you have traveled a shorter path. Wormhole and FTL are the same. Also, FTL does not have to be overpowered.

[nholzric]

The PC Gamer interview "Falange: Right, because you’re talking about interstellar distances, which means time-warp isn't enough anymore, no matter how fast you’re going. Now you need some sort of warp drive, and that falls into the realm of sci-fi. And that then requires us to break the laws of physics, which would in fact make everything much trickier."

The point of this thread is to figure out a way to get around that. Wormholes are just believable enough that it may work as a workaround.

Wormholes, or more specifically being able to navigate through wormholes in a useful way, being "just believable enough" is a matter of opinion. So it's cool to talk about wormholes, vs FTL, vs transwarp conduits, vs lightspeed, vs befriending Q. But it's all in the realm of science fiction and I think it's disingenuous and unhelpful to pretend otherwise. It's a valid conversation to have, we just have to be clear on its nature.