Kerbal Construction Time/StageRecovery Dev Thread

[MartGonzo]

Great idea, would it be possible to add in a downtime requirement for kerbals so that after a mission individual crewmembers can't be used for a certain amount of time?

[MisterFister]

Fine, but my question was subtler than that. The notes here suggest that repeatedly-used parts have diminishing build times (four times launched halves build order, I think is the ratio.) Does that mean if we make lots of modular subassemblies we can exploit this? (I'm installing the mod as I await your reply, I'm just curious.)

Edited April 30, 2014 by MisterFister

[magico13]

How does this mod treat subassemblies? Also, I use Editor Extensions, allowing me to use the Tab key to switch between VAB / SPH mode (radial vs. mirror symmetry, mostly, though it allows me to launch from runway at the VAB and vice versa -- saves me the hassle of moving files around if I want to make a subassembly in the VAB for launch in an SSTO on the runway.) Will this cause any unforeseen issues?

Subassemblies aren't dealt with specifically by this mod, so there shouldn't be any issues with those. I don't know what Editor Extensions will do, but the effects I can imagine are that simulations will start at the wrong place or ships will be added to the "wrong" build list. However, if it fully switches from VAB to SPH and vice versa, then it should (probably) put things in the build list corresponding to the building you are currently in. If you try it, please let me know what happens. Thanks

Edit: Just saw your addition. You can kind of exploit it with subassemblies (in fact, that is the point), but it takes time to build things (including subassemblies, since you effectively build them as full ships and then scrap them for parts) during which you CAN'T build anything else. So your trade time NOW for reduced times LATER. Just making a bunch of ship files with a bunch of parts has 0 effect and the reduction in times doesn't come into play until AFTER the construction is complete.

I am actually doing this in my game, I have a lab module that I want to send up on a rocket later and had some free build time, so I just built the payload and am going to scrap it when I'm done so that I only have to build the launcher later. It reduces my future build time.

The ratio isn't quite 4 builds = 1/2 time. It is exactly that for two identical ships, but when you mix parts it gets weird. The formula is square root of total effective cost of all parts, sqt(effective cost 1 + effective cost 2 +...), where effective cost is EITHER part.cost / (number of times used in a ship, including the current one) or part.cost / 100 for inventory parts. If you use a part multiple times in a single ship, it only counts as one use.

The weirdness happens when you mix parts, as a brand new part of 1000 cost plus an inventory part of normally 1000 cost has a total effective cost of 1010 = 1000 + 1000/100, then you take the square root. Essentially, inventory parts have negligible effect on the total time. The same holds true for parts that have been used a lot. If all the parts are the same and are from the inventory, then those two 1000 cost parts have an effective cost of 20 = 2000 / 100, meaning the time is sqt(2000)/sqt(100), or 1/10 of the original time (now you see why 4 identical builds is 1/2 the time)

Edited April 30, 2014 by magico13

[magico13]

Great idea, would it be possible to add in a downtime requirement for kerbals so that after a mission individual crewmembers can't be used for a certain amount of time?

Possible? Yes. Will I do it? Maybe... but unlikely. That's really easy to limit yourself and almost belongs more in a life support/sanity mod, but is an interesting idea that I think could be a good mechanic.

[MartGonzo]

Possible? Yes. Will I do it? Maybe... but unlikely. That's really easy to limit yourself and almost belongs more in a life support/sanity mod, but is an interesting idea that I think could be a good mechanic.

fair enough, you're right it is fairly easy to do myself.

I just keep forgetting.

[JeffreyCor]

KeepFit was a good mod I thought for requiring down time between missions, but it had several problems and apparently has been abandoned.

[MisterFister]

Yes, I saw that thread, too. Is that the only mod that enforces downtime for kerbonauts (as distinguished from this mod which enforces downtime for the Launchpad)?

[MisterFister]

New Question -- I just installed this mod earlier. I tried this on a new career save, and I usually place just a pod on the Launchpad and the runway a few times to do crew reports, EVA reports, goo samples, etc., because "Launchpad" and "Runway" are each separate biomes. ;-)

It allows me to warp until ready time when I do so, but doesn't force me -- there appears to be no penalty for ignoring this. Also my TAC LifeSupport spawns drained (zero in all respects) but my kerbonauts do not seem to die. I see no option to "build" or "simulate" launch in the VAB, as the regular launch button works. I do, however, see the KCT readout in the VAB displaying the build time for my vessel. (No toolbar support?)

Did I install the mod correctly? I followed the readme file by copying the .dll file directly into my KSP\Plugins folder, not the GameData folder. Was this correct?

[magico13]

New Question -- I just installed this mod earlier. I tried this on a new career save, and I usually place just a pod on the Launchpad and the runway a few times to do crew reports, EVA reports, goo samples, etc., because "Launchpad" and "Runway" are each separate biomes. ;-)

It allows me to warp until ready time when I do so, but doesn't force me -- there appears to be no penalty for ignoring this. Also my TAC LifeSupport spawns drained (zero in all respects) but my kerbonauts do not seem to die. I see no option to "build" or "simulate" launch in the VAB, as the regular launch button works. I do, however, see the KCT readout in the VAB displaying the build time for my vessel. (No toolbar support?)

Did I install the mod correctly? I followed the readme file by copying the .dll file directly into my KSP\Plugins folder, not the GameData folder. Was this correct?

Woah. You are running an EXTREMELY old version of this. Did you download it from the first page of this thread? You may have mistakenly downloaded the mod this is a continuation of, made by Ekku Zakku. With this version it goes in the GameData folder. You want the one from the first page of this thread, next to the big, bolded "download" that says 0.23.5 and Pre-Release 5. Make sure to delete the one you put in the Plugins folder. Let me know how it goes then

In the old versions, it would place the ship directly on the pad and drain all of the resources out to prevent you from launching, then it would fill them when time was up. That stopped being the case with PR3, which was released in February for 0.23, which included the build list.

Edit: If you found the mod through a Google search, it annoyingly takes you to the old thread, even though this one is longer and probably, no wait, definitely has more views (over twice as many). If it says "Alpha Version 3" then that's the wrong thread.

Edited May 1, 2014 by magico13

[MisterFister]

Ah. I downloaded from Spaceport, I think. Lemme try it your way. I'll report back soon.

[magico13]

Ah. I downloaded from Spaceport, I think. Lemme try it your way. I'll report back soon.

Yeah, I avoid SpacePort like the plague as it's rather... less than ideal... at the current time. Though the latest dev notes spoke of upgrading it, meaning I may use it in the future. All of my downloads are on mediafire.

[JeffreyCor]

Yes, I saw that thread, too. Is that the only mod that enforces downtime for kerbonauts (as distinguished from this mod which enforces downtime for the Launchpad)?

As far as I know it is. It's unfortunate since it had so much potential. They seemed like a great paring, this for ship construction time and that for kerbonaught training.

[MisterFister]

Magico -- Fantabulous mod! I downloaded from your mediafire and all system appear to be go.

... kerbonaught training.

lol

[MisterFister]

After some rudimentary testing, I can report with reasonable confidence that Editor Extensions (and Action Groups Extended, incidentally) appear to work as intended and present no immediately-visible difficulties for your mod here. When I hit the Tab key to switch between SPH and VAB mode (I remain in the same workspace, it just switches "mode" -- I cannot speak highly enough about this mod, you really do have to try it http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/38768-0-23-5-Editor-Extensions-v1-1-2-Apr-2014-%28EdTools-Editor-Tools-replacement%29) KCT seems to keep up accordingly, and as far as I can tell so far, does properly assign the craft to the appropriate build queue. Oddly, this opens up the possible exploit of using one (for example, the Runway) for making lifters and other vehicles (there is no in-game penalty for launching vertically from launch clamps placed on the runway) whereas the Launchpad can be used to generate assemblies for scrap, payload modules, and the like. Or vice versa, using the Launchpad for launches and the runway for catchup / secondary production work.

It is my preliminary opinion right now that this is not a "cheat," or at least is not a cheat enough to warrant any changes to the mod logic as I understand it. I like the idea of having two "shops" actively pumping out hardware, as Cape Canaveral had the capacity to send shuttles up within days of each other as emergency contingency plans post-Columbia-disaster, even though any individual shuttle would need about 15-20 months for turnaround. This meant that a minimum of two shuttles could be conditioned concurrently. Given that I intend to launch multi-science platforms to Munar and Minmar orbit once I advance far enough into the tech tree to get docking nodes and other whatnots, being able to stockpile the actual science payloads now for individual landings later is something I'd care to incorporate into my workflow now.

It does occur to me that I could, conceivably, use my "secondary shop" to just spam engines, tanks, docking nodes, and other flotsam in non-flyable configurations, just to scrap them. I could do so with a reasonable chance at efficiency by spamming, say, a hundred docking nodes attached in series from the bottom of a Mk-1 pod, just to have them for future orbital construction projects. I could do the same for solar panels, batteries, life support modules for TAC-LS, fuel lines, and other somesuch obvious high-demand parts. Not sure if that qualifies as cheating, though. I'll have to report back with further experience as I spelunk into my new career save. (I'm running a metric crapton of mods right now, on a KSP Interstellar tech tree, with B9, KW, IR, DREC, and more than a dozen others. I think your mod shines in proportion to the number of mods in play, since it emphasizes streamlines priorities. With a greater selection of parts and a greater breadth of mission parameters and considerations beyond stock such as with FAR-related builds or RT2, spamming scrap parts becomes a riskier proposition -- no guarantee that any one part would be needed in high quantities enough to justify delegating it to spam.)

The MechJeb in-flight delta-V displays do seem to be buggy, however. I'll attempt to troubleshoot this.

Edited May 1, 2014 by MisterFister

[magico13]

@MisterFister

Even without Editor Extensions you could have the SPH building parts while the VAB puts the rockets out, or vice versa, which is totally fine by me (they both share part inventories and it's the individual parts that are tracked, not subassemblies). I figure if someone really wants to cheatingly avoid build times then they've installed the wrong mod (as that is literally the only purpose of this mod) but I do also want to provide a balanced experience. The future updates to the build list mechanics will help this balance, as (the current idea I have) allows you to upgrade the SPH and VAB separately to have faster build times or to build multiple things at once, but you are limited in the total number of upgrades you can perform (so inevitably one building will fall behind or both will have moderate build times). I'm thinking that you'll get one upgrade every time you unlock a tech node and a single upgrade will either increase the build rate of one building by 5% or increase a second build rate by 10% (with the second rate limited to less than or equal to the primary rate and starting at 0%). You could keep the SPH and VAB at the same rate and split your builds between them, but if you needed to build something fast you'd be out of luck (as your rates would be low for a single build).

Either way, to build up a stockpile of parts takes time that you could have spent building a rocket/plane. And you can recover a lot (or all) of the parts from a rocket (and all of the ones from a plane). It does reduce future builds if you have a huge inventory, but you'd have minimal build times if you use the same reusable launcher and build your payloads in advance and then scrap them. Also, since it's the number of builds using a part that matters for subsequent builds, not the number of times the part is used in a build, if you build payloads often they will be much faster to build. (So, there is a bit of a cheat here. If you build a payload, then scrap it, then build it, then scrap, build, scrap, ... then the number of subsequent builds will increase but the build time will be fixed at 1/10 of original, then if you use those parts in anything else (when they're not in the inventory anymore) they will have a high subsequent build counter and will be fast to build from brand new).

But, all of the "cheats" still take time and build slots and micromanagement. If someone wants to avoid long build times that badly, you can just open the settings menu and disable the mod or change the build time modifiers (OverallMultiplier down near 0, everything else up higher. Similarly, to make build times longer you do the opposite.)

Also, the mechjeb thing is probably unrelated as this mod does little to nothing during flight. If you do confirm an issue, let me know and I can try to fix it

[JeffreyCor]

I've been using MechJeb from the start (never leave Kerbal without it ) and never had a conflict or other issue between that and this mod. There has been an ongoing problem with delta-V in MJ that has been attempted to be addressed in several dev builds. From what I can tell, build 236 that I'm using does have it working correctly but I haven't looked too deeply into the math just if the values seemed reasonable.

[MisterFister]

@MisterFister

Even without Editor Extensions you could have ...

For the record, I was not meaning to imply that Editor Extensions was causing unexpected behavior with your mod, or that I was doing something that your mod did not expect. I was merely responded to your prior request for me to report to you on how the two mods interact, and I was simply attempting to describe that they do so flawlessly. Editor Extensions allows VAB / SPH seamless switching, which essentially means that a player can use one or the other (with a single consolidated list of subassembly .craft files as well as finished .craft files) while in no way sacrificing use of both launch points. I'd initially wondered in my previous statements (I was accessing the forum from school and was not at my home computer, which meant that I was asking questions here instead of actually installing the mod and trying it out) if Editor Extensions's mechanism of switching between build modes within the same editor building (in my case, I prefer the VAB) would in some way negatively affect how your mod intercepts .craft build orders and forces downtime prior to launch. I can say that the two mods work together brilliantly.

This allows me to simply double-order without actually having to back out and move to the SPH. I order a build, then I hit the Tab key, then I design my second order if applicable (such as my subassemblies for future use) and send that second one, and it automatically goes to the proper launch point. Or I can double launch the same rocket (for example, for high- and low-altitude flybys of Mun / Minmus) in consecutive launches, thereby halving build time. Without Editor Extensions, I'd be forced to save a .craft file, order the build, back out of the VAB, alt-tab to my Windows desktop, physically copy the .craft file from my VAB to my SPH, alt-tab back into KSP, enter the SPH, and order the build that way. Here, I use the Tab key once to accomplish literally all of that.

[magico13]

@MisterFister

Makes sense. Good to know they work well together! I'm not a huge fan of launching rockets from the runway, so hopefully my future plans will deter that notion, but I don't want to prevent it entirely. In fact, I have a vessel that is a folding plane (the wings fold up to be parallel to the body of the ship) that launches like a typical rocket from the runway but lands like a plane (unfold the wings in space, then glide to a landing). My personal preference is that if it lands on the runway, it's ok to launch from the runway But I won't be enforcing my personal preferences that strongly on anyone (though it is inevitable that some of them will, since I develop this myself and implement things generally how I want them, with consideration of the users' opinions of course)

I've noticed I tend to talk a lot when a simple "Sounds good! Glad to hear." would suffice. Just ignore the rambling

[JeffreyCor]

Rambling is a perk Looking forward to your additional ideas for this. It's an amazing mod

[JeffreyCor]

Odd thing happened and not sure if it's my end or mod related. in the map view opening KCT and clicking Warp to Complete caused the game to freeze. Could someone else try this and see if they have the same result please?

[Floppster]

Hey magico, I'm having some problems with MCE, my budget never goes down. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, but all my ships so far have been free, MCE never recognises a launch it seems. I just started a new save with the latest KCT and MCE, but it just doesnt seem to work. Any help for this?

On another note, great mod! I've always been a little sceptic about the efficiency of kerbal industries

Edit: Seems to be a problem with MCE, not KCT

Edited May 2, 2014 by Floppster

[Floppster]

May I suggest an idea for expanding on this wonderful mod?

Research time. A lot of the more role-playing guys over at mission reports go by the rule of three days per science point or something along the lines of that.

Wouldn't that be pretty easy to implement?

[magico13]

Odd thing happened and not sure if it's my end or mod related. in the map view opening KCT and clicking Warp to Complete caused the game to freeze. Could someone else try this and see if they have the same result please?

I've seen this once before and thought it was related to Remote Tech (since I have issues with RT in the tracking station all the time). I'll look into it more though.

Edit: Seems to be a problem with MCE, not KCT

I think I heard someone having a similar issue, though I don't remember what the problem was. I'll double check that it's not an interaction issue, just in case.

May I suggest an idea for expanding on this wonderful mod?

Research time. A lot of the more role-playing guys over at mission reports go by the rule of three days per science point or something along the lines of that.

Wouldn't that be pretty easy to implement?

I haven't thought about this much, but are you implying that (in your example) every 3 days you get a science point? Hmm. I could add something so that you could earn science (at a similar rate) as long as vessels are building (your engineers are getting hands on experience). Otherwise, maybe you could reduce your build rate and divert some of the resources to "research". At the end of the research, you get a science point. It'd be like another build list (maybe with the upgrade system I want to introduce, you could upgrade your research rate). I will think about this. If other people want it implemented, I can definitely do it.

(I like it being like another build list you can upgrade the rate of, and the higher the rate the faster you get science. You can either upgrade that rate or upgrade your build rates in the VAB/SPH)

[JeffreyCor]

I'll check without RT2 installed and see if it works. Workaround in either case, using the arrows or keyboard buttons for warp in map view works with KCT menu open without a problem. Useful for active only resource scanning (kethane) while waiting for a ship to build

Update: It is indeed a conflict with RT2. Without that KCT warp to complete works under all conditions. Don't know if it can be fixed or an inherent problem with the current build of RT2. At any rate the workaround does work and warp to complete functions perfectly in the spaceport view.

Edited May 2, 2014 by JeffreyCor

[Floppster]

I haven't thought about this much, but are you implying that (in your example) every 3 days you get a science point? Hmm. I could add something so that you could earn science (at a similar rate) as long as vessels are building (your engineers are getting hands on experience). Otherwise, maybe you could reduce your build rate and divert some of the resources to "research". At the end of the research, you get a science point. It'd be like another build list (maybe with the upgrade system I want to introduce, you could upgrade your research rate). I will think about this. If other people want it implemented, I can definitely do it.

(I like it being like another build list you can upgrade the rate of, and the higher the rate the faster you get science. You can either upgrade that rate or upgrade your build rates in the VAB/SPH)

Well what I really meant was that in order to unlock a new tech node, you have to wait something like 3 days for every SCIENCE!!! point it costs, implying that Wernher and his guys doesn't "pump out new parts like a broken fire hydrant". Because really, who can invent ion propulsion in two seconds?

But I like your idea too, misunderstandings aren't always a bad thing

I think I heard someone having a similar issue, though I don't remember what the problem was. I'll double check that it's not an interaction issue, just in case.

I checked, uninstalled KCT and MCE still gave me free ships.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Floppster