Kerbal Construction Time/StageRecovery Dev Thread

[Shad0wCatcher]

@magico No biggie; with that info you posted I have somewhere to look at least; should be easy enough to edit the tree.cfg to remove the duplicate entries. I posted my issue (with the exact same symptoms as erbmur) on the general addon affairs subforum and someone stated it was an issue with either stock contracts or treeloader.

[severedsolo]

Might be a bit late for this, but does this mean KAC integration isn't happening?

Also I had an idea last night, would it be possible to stop Kerbals from going back into space the moment they touch down? Maybe enforce some kind of "Minimum grounded time" before they can be used again?

[magico13]

Might be a bit late for this, but does this mean KAC integration isn't happening?

Also I had an idea last night, would it be possible to stop Kerbals from going back into space the moment they touch down? Maybe enforce some kind of "Minimum grounded time" before they can be used again?

KAC integration will happen when TriggerAu has added an API that lets other mods interact with KAC. I've looked a little bit to see if there's a way I can manually add alarms, but it doesn't look like there is, at least not easily.

I had begun working on another mod called Flight School that would have included a feature where Kerbals needed downtime (and you would also have to train them before you could use them), but once 0.24 was released I haven't had time to do any more work on it. It's so bare-bones right now that there's nothing worth releasing and I don't see a point where I'll get to work on it any time soon, unfortunately. Anything regarding Kerbals I've pretty much determined is outside of the scope of KCT. KCT is staying based around construction and the related aspects of running a Space Program. Kerbals are more geared toward a mod designed specifically for them.

[autumnalequinox]

I'm sorry about all the hotfixes lately. Unfortunately they each keep fixing one thing at a time, but I don't want to make the fixes wait. 0.7.2.3 just fixes an issue with checking resource mass when the resource reference is null. It may be the fix to autumnalequinox's problem and appears to fix an issue someone else reported through a PM. Hopefully no more hotfixes are needed. I'm going to try to get the official version 1.0 out next week, but I want to clean up the code a bit first (remove old commented out stuff, add comments to explain everything, and minimize debug messages). I should do a major refactoring later on to update some areas to use better code than the hacked together things that I have.

Edit: If the update notifier is notifying you of an update but you're at the latest version, redownload. I may have forgotten to put the new version into the zip...

i just got the latest hotfix, and so far so good the weird graphics problems seem to have disappeared. going to get deep into a few hours of playing and i'll report anything odd. haha only thing that sucks is that with the new launchpad rules i may not be able to make the transfer window for duna (i had planned on four launches in 24 hrs on with vehicles i had already built). oh well i can always test this modular craft locally.

[severedsolo]

I had begun working on another mod called Flight School that would have included a feature where Kerbals needed downtime (and you would also have to train them before you could use them), but once 0.24 was released I haven't had time to do any more work on it. It's so bare-bones right now that there's nothing worth releasing and I don't see a point where I'll get to work on it any time soon, unfortunately. Anything regarding Kerbals I've pretty much determined is outside of the scope of KCT. KCT is staying based around construction and the related aspects of running a Space Program. Kerbals are more geared toward a mod designed specifically for them.

I did think it was probably out of scope, but that other mod sounds really cool, I hope you get time to work on it at a later date, although I completely understand where you are coming from. I used to mod for The Sims 3, and when my daughter was born I just completely lost the time and energy to do anything.

On KAC integration, it's not really that bad, as the KCT window already gives you time to completion etc, and with the "stop on completion" option you get a similar feature.

Although I don't know if it still jerks you out of timewarp at that point, I turned that feature off when we discussed it last time.

[Taki117]

On KAC integration, it's not really that bad, as the KCT window already gives you time to completion etc, and with the "stop on completion" option you get a similar feature.

Although I don't know if it still jerks you out of timewarp at that point, I turned that feature off when we discussed it last time.

It does not "Jerk you out" but it functions similar to KAC in that as you near the completion time Time Warp will slow down until it's done, at which point it will drop out.

[magico13]

I made a change a few versions ago (probably with the start of the PR7 series I think) so that it should slowly warp down just like using the Warp to Complete button. SOI changes may cause it to suddenly stop warp, since that's different code that EkkuZakku wrote before I took over.

You may have also been the one who requested that you be able to warp to any object's completion, instead of just the next one. I also implemented that (well, with ships and tech at least. I should probably add it for Reconditioning as well)

[autumnalequinox]

So after a few hrs of playing only bugs I encountered were two camera lock ups at the vab and one weird whole game blanking out when I hit esc on accidentduring a scene change. Nothing to make it unplayable and my saves were fine. The launchpad retcon has made me finally..after a year of playing ksp.. start developing space planes for emergency use. Which is awesome

[Wercho]

Great mod, I really like the increased planning needed for the program with it and the stress of rescue missions when combined with a life support mod.

One thing I've noticed is it doesn't seem to update the build time when using tweakscale. Specifically, if you take a part and scale it up or down, the build time stays the same though the price (displayed by native KSP) changes. I need to do more testing to see if the funds deducted from the account are accurate or not (I was playing in Sandbox). It would be nice if this worked, and Extraplanetary Launchpads seems to be able to account for it, but it doesn't break anything so perhaps its low priority. One problem I can foresee is integrating it with the parts recovery system. If I build a tiny rocket with scaled down Mainsails to .625m, I shouldn't get full sized Mainsails in my parts inventory, but adding to the code for the parts inventory to store all the different tweakscale configurations wouldn't be worth it. So maybe KCT is best left as is. You can build a tiny Mainsail, but it still takes a long time because it is more complex than an LVT45.

In short, great mod. This is just an annoyance and not a big problem.

[magico13]

The costs should be ok (as in you'll be charged correctly) since that uses the built in KSP system for calculation (and thus will account for fuel and all that, meaning you pay exactly what is displayed). The time calculation is also based on cost, but on the cost of the fully fueled parts (aka, what's listed as the cost in the editor, or more specifically in the part config file). Tweakscale does pose an interesting problem that I haven't considered, though. Although tweakscale also basically eliminates the tech tree since everything can be any size (aka, 3.75 meter rockets in the first tech node.) I think it may be best to leave it how it is for now, because otherwise you could build a bunch of tiny parts really fast, then recover them and make them really big and have it build quickly because they're in the inventory. I may look into Tweakscale to see if there's anything simple I can do to split parts based on size in the inventory, which would be the best solution, but probably a bit of work.

Edit: Looking into the Module that's saved to the parts, I could probable get the current scale and save it with the part name in the inventory. I could see an issue with if you didn't always have tweakscale installed though (aka, added it later or removed it later) since the normal stock parts would be considered different parts. I could work around that by not saving the scale if the current scale == default scale. Definitely doable, and might not be super hard. The only issue is that I would have to change how the total time (well, Build Points) is calculated to not use the costs in the config and instead use the current costs (and all the implications associated with that, such as fuel costs). Honestly, not too hard to do and it shouldn't make too much of a difference 90% of the time. I'll do it.

Edit2: Except that method of calculating the cost may only work when I have access to a ShipConstruct, which is not true anywhere except in the editor. If I try to make one from a ship ConfigNode then the ghost ships come back, and they are bad. This may be harder than I thought. At the very least I can save them differently, but perhaps not have proper changes to the time. At least not yet.

Edit3: Should be able to do it with the confignode of the vessel. Now I just need to rewrite the method that handles getting the Build Points.

Edited August 19, 2014 by magico13

[autumnalequinox]

I know this is a bit off topic but.. I have been playing a hardcore career game and have tweakscale loaded but absolutely forbid myself from using it. Does it make career too easy? As magico said.. it basically gets rid of the motivation to aquire new tech. Is there anything that balances it?

[JeffreyCor]

With current version of tweakscale as you increase the size it also increases the size and cost. I had used it to make a spaceplane increasing sizes to fix together nicely without using adapters only to find it wouldn't get off the ground due to being too heavy. Cutting the sizes back to stock and it was in the air on the first try. I find the usefulness to be particular to the application, sometimes the best thing imaginable while other times completely useless.

[autumnalequinox]

With current version of tweakscale as you increase the size it also increases the size and cost. I had used it to make a spaceplane increasing sizes to fix together nicely without using adapters only to find it wouldn't get off the ground due to being too heavy. Cutting the sizes back to stock and it was in the air on the first try. I find the usefulness to be particular to the application, sometimes the best thing imaginable while other times completely useless.

ahh ok, that's very enlightening. sounds a bit like procedural tanks. i had to abandon those after they became incompatible with Dang it! but they were useful in some, but not all, situations; specifically to save part counts and fill weird space that other tanks would not. it's good to know it's not a cure-all for everything, even if it complicates modders' jobs a bit

[magico13]

even if it complicates modders' jobs a bit

Working on that part right now. I may have something working now, but I basically had to break most of the core functionality to get it in there. JeffreyCor, you're going to have a lot of testing to do!

[vardicd]

I found, in the options for KCT, a setting that {supposedly} allows you to set how long it takes to recondition the Launchpad for a launch, default is set to 4 days for every 25 tones. Changing this doesn't seem to change the values for reconditioning, is this a yet to be implemented completely feature, or have I gone and broken something? I like the reconditioning, I just don't like that I can build 3 Mun lander rockets and one KSO flight before the launch pad is ready to go again after 1 KSO flight. O_O

[autumnalequinox]

now on year 8 of my super-career game. i have been manually adding funds each year (rep/10 x 10,000) (kongressional funding). With a subsequent deducation of reputation (public interest waning) of 10% each year. (i really want to make a small plug-in to do this). otherwise, letting the score of realism mods do it's thing. my space program has gone from mercury to apollo and beyond. the time span feels realistic, think how much we accomplished in a decade? and now, for the first time... my game has a sense of HISTORY. there have been failures (thanks dang it!) and engineering screw ups (all me). famous astronauts (thanks final frontier) An entire interplanetary cruiser turned out to be a horrible design, and barely got the crew back alive (thanks TAC life support). but most of all, thanks to KCT, there is that feeling of history. The game is telling a story now, and that story will be different for everyone. I love it how the community has brought this story-telling to an otherwise fine game about building rockets, and evolved it into the story of the History of a fictional space program, run by little green men in a tiny solar system.

[magico13]

@Vardicd That option won't affect any existing reconditiong, but should affect future ones. If you temporarily disable reconditioning, then reenable it, the new setting should take affect and you can cancel the current reconditioning.

@autumnalequinox Do you mind if I quote that for the full release? Or at least provide a link to the post.

[autumnalequinox]

@Vardicd That option won't affect any existing reconditiong, but should affect future ones. If you temporarily disable reconditioning, then reenable it, the new setting should take affect and you can cancel the current reconditioning.

@autumnalequinox Do you mind if I quote that for the full release? Or at least provide a link to the post.

No problem

[WololoW]

now on year 8 of my super-career game. i have been manually adding funds each year (rep/10 x 10,000) (kongressional funding). With a subsequent deducation of reputation (public interest waning) of 10% each year. (i really want to make a small plug-in to do this). otherwise, letting the score of realism mods do it's thing. my space program has gone from mercury to apollo and beyond. the time span feels realistic, think how much we accomplished in a decade? and now, for the first time... my game has a sense of HISTORY. there have been failures (thanks dang it!) and engineering screw ups (all me). famous astronauts (thanks final frontier) An entire interplanetary cruiser turned out to be a horrible design, and barely got the crew back alive (thanks TAC life support). but most of all, thanks to KCT, there is that feeling of history. The game is telling a story now, and that story will be different for everyone. I love it how the community has brought this story-telling to an otherwise fine game about building rockets, and evolved it into the story of the History of a fictional space program, run by little green men in a tiny solar system.

I(and I am sure many others) would love a plugin that does exactly that with configurable numbers (although those seem reasonable, many people like custom configuration ) - Would it be in the scope of this mod to add the functionality described in Autumnalequinox's post to KCT, magico13? (Specifically Annual Funding & Reputation loss.)

[Mister Spock]

This mod looks really great. I searched the thread for info on upgrading, which is a great idea, but I'm still not sure I understand how it works. Do you spend funds or science? Both? How much does it cost? How many levels of upgrade are there?

Also, are there any mods that are incompatible with this one? The OP mentions MechJeb, but I don't use that. I do use FAR, Deadly Re-entry, Remote Tech 2, KAS, KSPI, DangIt, Final Frontier, TAC-Life Support, MKS/OKS/Karbonite.

Thanks in advance. Looks like you've done a ton of great work on this project.

[magico13]

Upgrading is based on upgrade points. One is given for every tech node unlocked (upon spending the science, since this mod also adds time delays to the actual unlocking of tech node parts). You can also purchase upgrade points for 250 science or 250,000 funds (I may need to increase the funds cost). In sandbox games you are given a set number of upgrades (45 by default) but you can freely change that amount. In career games you start with 15 upgrades for free. I believe the Getting Started guide covers the upgrade system decently.

You can spend upgrades in three categories: VAB upgrades, SPH upgrades, and R&D upgrades. VAB and SPH upgrades work the same way: by speeding up build rates or by unlocking additional build rates (meaning you can build multiple things at once). R&D upgrades have two options: Research, which gives you science based on how long a ship takes to build; and Development, which decreases the time that tech nodes take to unlock.

It makes a lot more sense when you play with it, but the Getting Started Guide also describes it pretty thoroughly (if I recall correctly).

Conceivably there shouldn't be any mod incompatibilities, since this acts very independently of any other mods. There are two cases of mod integration though. If DebRefund is detected then KCT doesn't perform any of it's own refunding of funds for dropped stages, but still recovers parts independently (for use in the inventory). If StageRecovery is detected, KCT transfers ALL recovery over to it and receives the percent refunded. From that, it determines whether parts are "too damaged to be used" and won't add them to the inventory if they are (basically, if you get refunded 75% (due to landing speed) then there's a 25% chance that a part will be unusable).

The supposed mechjeb issue is questionable, since I really don't know what was causing the bug that made me think that, I just know that people who have experienced the bug also use mechjeb (but there may be some who don't). I think that was the camera lockup on simulation bug.

And before I post this I'm gonna guess I got ninja'd But that's ok because I generally do a terrible job at explaining things.

Edit: Surprisingly I wasn't this time!

@WololoW It's too out of scope for KCT, but it doesn't seem like it'd be too hard to write. I don't have a whole lot of time right now, so I don't think I could, but someone could put it in the addon suggestions forum. KCT is too close to release and has had so much change of scope that I kind of just want it to stop growing for a little bit When I took over I thought this was going to be a small mod and it's grown to something far more complex then I ever could imagine. I love that, but I also worry about overstepping too much (which is why most features are configurable in some way or another).

Edited August 20, 2014 by magico13

[Mister Spock]

Thanks for the thorough explanation, magico13! I hadn't noticed the Getting Started Guide, but I found and read it after I saw your post. It's very helpful. The upgrade mechanic sounds cool.

I think this mod could increase my love for spaceplanes. First, the "simulation" mode means I can test the heck out of my planes even in a hardcore, no-reload game. Normally I'm very reluctant to like Kerbal lives in such a game, but a simulation mode would let me perfect the design with no risk of loss of life. Second, I assume reusable craft like spaceplanes will have quick build times, yes? If I land a spaceplane back at KSC, all its parts go into inventory, I imagine?

Lastly, I'm wondering whether your mod anticipates the "Administration" facility that Squad is constructing. Are you at all concerned that Squad might steal your thunder and announce a "construction time" feature of its own?

Anyway, thanks again for your reply.

[magico13]

Reusable spacecraft do in fact take less time to build. It should be about 1/10 of the normal time, assuming all parts are recovered. Spaceplanes are very, very advantageous with this and 0.24.

Currently no one knows what the Administration building will do, so I can't begin to prepare for it. I know it won't involve construction time, based on the results of the thread that initiated this mod (where the devs said they have no intention of adding construction time in any form, and where many people objected to the idea of having it). So i'm not too worried about that. The nice thing about this mod is that pretty much everything it adds is things the devs don't want (which is why I love KSP's modability).

[Ixonal]

Somehow doubting this is the culprit, but might as well ask... Has anyone else seen this happen? Game was running like normal, I fast forward a few days, trying to get contracts to cycle, then go to VAB and get this...

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=303393642

It's like the reasearch center got crammed into the VAB... Like I said, dunno if it's actually related to this, but figured that KCT would've been about the only thing actively doing something in that chain of events, so this should be a good place to start

[magico13]

Can you get me the output_log.txt fie from the KSP_Data folder from the play session where that happened? I can probably tell you what mod is causing it. There is a chance it is KCT related. That sometimes happens when a null reference error occurs, sometimes on recovery. Do you use RealChute? KCT's booster recovery code may have an issue with stock parachutes in a really rare case which will be fixed in the next version. Ironically, using RealChute has less interaction bugs, which is kind of silly to me.