Kerbal Construction Time/StageRecovery Dev Thread

[guto8797]

This will be in the 0.24 update of KCT, recovery of funds from spent stages at a reduced value. But I also made it into it's own mod which is available for use now. And KCT will be compatible with it so you can run them side by side without issue (in fact, I'm not going to make KCT's recovery value configurable since StageRecovery's already is)

Forum thread for StageRecovery

Did you know that in my language magico means magician? Because that is what you are. A adorable s.e.x.y magician. Keep Awesome! EDIT: Kerbal Forum dont like the S.ex part in S.exy. so i have to write it like that

[severedsolo]

Personally I'd rather we didn't have an extra time limit imposed for re-conditioning the launchpad. Why isn't this being done while I'm flying? I'm not paying the ground crew to sit on their butts!

On another note, a couple of suggestions/questions if I can.

I'm confused about your note about StageRecovery, on the one hand you say it will be included in KCT (which seems to remove the need to run your other mod) and on the other hand you say they will run side by side. Can you clarify please? I'd rather not have to run both if I can help it, but I think I do want configurability, which brings me on to my next point.

Stagerecovery - why did you opt for 75% of base recovery value? Was it for simplicity? To my mind it should work like this: as parts are added to your inventory, you shouldn't have to pay for them again (except for fuel). I don't know how codeable that is though, so I have an alternative, which is 100% recovery (based on distance for KSC) for everything, OR change active vessels to 75% recovery as well (but thats probably outside the scope of this mod). Having said that you are making it configurable in the mod, so I'll wait for an answer for point one before making my mind up.

Aaaand, a feature request. Currently (ie 23.5 version) the warp to completion button will slow warp as the deadline approaches. This is good, however, if you turn timewarp on yourself, when the timer reaches 0, you are lurched violently out of warp, which can introduce floating point errors and mess up orbits/transfers. Currently I work around this by putting a raw alarm in KAC, but it would be nice if it slowed itself down anyway (as KAC does).

Also, cheers I love your mod,

[tmikesecrist3]

oh the work to recondition the pad can start soon after launch, and it can go on well your doing other things. there might be was to hurry things along, I seem to recall 2 Titan launches back in Gemini less then a week apart. Though I do see a problem implementing it. Nasa had more then one Launch pad, only one was large enough for titan lanches, that was why the plan was to use an angina launched form an atlas. So maybe I should file it under nice thought.... I do think it would make a nice option for those that want it though.. but I wouldnt want it forced on people

[magico13]

I'm thinking of adding reconditioning in as an optional feature. It would start as soon as you launch and would take some amount of time dependent on the size of the craft you launch (in my mind currently it's 1 day per 10 tons launched, divided by the sum of your applicable build rates). With that method, increasing build rates will decrease reconditioning time. This won't be included in the next update, which is just a compatibility update.

If StageRecovery (SR) is installed, KCT delegates funds recovery to it (SR) and doesn't do it's own funds recovery. If SR isn't installed then KCT will recover funds at 75% of what you would get if you were manually landing the stage (therfore modified by distance from KSC, so max 75% at KSC and min 7.5% on the other side of Kerbin). I chose 75% for balance reasons. You're getting recovery of something that is pretty easy to exploit (just strap some parachutes to literally everything) without having to do much, if any, work for it (you don't even have to watch them land). I feel like the convenience is worth a price, and it's still better than what stock offers of 0%

I'll probably make it configurable in KCT too, I just also feel like I make things too configurable sometimes and wonder what settings people are using. If everyone is setting things to "easy mode" all the time, that sort of defeats all the work I'm putting into things. Making it configurable is very easy to do though.

StageRecovery is a separate mod that just takes the booster recovery code from this and makes it available without all the other KCT bulk. It's for people who don't want KCT's features but want to get some funds back for dropped boosters. If you're using KCT, it isn't necessary. But I'm making sure KCT will work in conjunction with it if they're both installed.

I'll have to look into the warping settings. Is that with ForceStopWarp active? I think the Settings Menu version is "Force Stop TimeWarp on Complete?". If so, I'll see if I can make it more like the Warp To Complete functionality.

[severedsolo]

Yeah thats fair enough on the 75%, I actually prefer your implementation, as obviously you do need to strap the rocket back together, my gripe was more with the stock method of 100%, but not alot you can do about that (alright, I know it's difficult to hit the pad, but it's far from impossible, and the runway is a big target).

Warping, I think that it was with force stop active... to be honest I set and forgot, in which case there is already a workaround, in that I can turn that off, but I like to know when my vessels complete, but it would still be nice if it slowed itself down instead. I often have 5+ missions on the go at a time, and when KCT completes I launch.

I like the fact your mod is highly configurable.... I hate the R&D research times personally (again.. this should be done while I'm flying, I'm just sending back data), but I like most of the other features. I would argue if you are going to make it configurable in SR, you may as well in KCT, as anyone who wants to will just install SR instead.

Edited July 18, 2014 by severedsolo

[cvod]

I have a feeling this mod is going to actually make career mode easier when it comes to funds because of the simulation feature. So for a feature request, could we have the option of simulations costing funds and maybe have the price based on the duration and complexity of the simulation? It wouldn't seem right to be able to perfect a rocket design for free.

[magico13]

I have a feeling this mod is going to actually make career mode easier when it comes to funds because of the simulation feature. So for a feature request, could we have the option of simulations costing funds and maybe have the price based on the duration and complexity of the simulation? It wouldn't seem right to be able to perfect a rocket design for free.

I like the idea of that! I've been wanting to improve how simulations work, and I think that's exactly what I'm looking for. You can pay a certain amount for a longer duration, or starting in orbit around Duna, etc. It won't probably be in next release, but I'll try to get it in the next feature release. It will likely be an optional feature, but on by default.

[magico13]

In case anyone is wondering/unaware. I'm stopping the StageRecovery addon. KCT will have virtually identical recovery mechanics when it updates (including refunds), but if you've got DebRefund installed then it delegates recovery to that (aka, KCT performs none of it's own recovery code). No user interaction will be required for this compatibility, Vendan and I are working together to have everything automated.

Want to check out DebRefund for yourself? Here's a link: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/86691-0-24-DebRefund-v1-0-4

[magico13]

I present to you, Pre-Release 7! Mostly a compatibility update with a couple bug fixes, particularly with a few bugs added by 0.24. I didn't want to wait any longer for Deb-Refund to include KCT support directly, so I'm releasing now and will push an update when that occurs, so DebRefund integration is not where I want it to be yet.

Biggest changes:

-Support for 0.24

-Dropped stages have their funds partially recovered (thus DebRefund is not needed for this). By default it is 75% of what you would get if you had landed the stage right then and there. If you attach a probe core, however, then the result is 100% of if it were landed (since that stage would be theoretically controllable). The max you can get is dependent on the distance from KSC. The closer, the better.

-Support for latest RealChutes

-Support for the stock toolbar and message system. Finished vessels and successful recoveries will each send a message.

-Pay for vessels when you press the build button, not at launch.

Note: 0.24 has a really annoying GUI bug that causes click-throughs in the Space Center scene. This means that clicking on a GUI will often have you enter the VAB, SPH, etc. I have gotten around this, but the way I did causes KSP to pause, meaning pressing Warp To Complete may not seem to function WHILE THE MOUSE IS OVER THE BUILD LIST WINDOW. Moving it off of the build list will allow time to resume normally. Basically, while the mouse is hovering over the build list, time stops.

Editing is broken in this build. I will try to get it back up and running for the next release, which will primarily be a new feature release.

Support for existing saves is possibly questionable. It won't work quite right with 0.23.5 careers with KCT as any existing vessels in the build list/storage will not have been paid for (and thus you will pay for them at launch). It should work with existing 0.24 careers. Sandbox shouldn't be affected.

Edit: Also, those of you with the update checker set to auto won't see this update in-game since it only displays updates for the current KSP version. Thus, when I release a new 0.24 update you will be notified in game. I'm going to make it an option to see all updates or just ones for the current KSP version in the next update.

A note on DebRefund compatibility: If you use KCT and DebRefund together, KCT will not refund any funds. It lets DebRefund handle that (or Stage Recovery if you're still using that for some reason). The author of DebRefund and I are in talks to add support so that his code would do all the recovery checks and he'd just give me a list of parts which are recovered, along with a damage value. Unfortunately that is not implemented yet (ready on my side, waiting for him to put in his checks for KCT) but I will push an update when it is.

Edited July 19, 2014 by magico13

[guto8797]

I present to you, Pre-Release 7! Mostly a compatibility update with a couple bug fixes, particularly with a few bugs added by 0.24. I didn't want to wait any longer for Deb-Refund to include KCT support directly, so I'm releasing now and will push an update when that occurs, so DebRefund integration is not where I want it to be yet.

Biggest changes:

-Support for 0.24

-Dropped stages have their funds partially recovered (thus DebRefund is not needed for this). By default it is 75% of what you would get if you had landed the stage right then and there. If you attach a probe core, however, then the result is 100% of if it were landed (since that stage would be theoretically controllable). The max you can get is dependent on the distance from KSC. The closer, the better.

-Support for latest RealChutes

-Support for the stock toolbar and message system. Finished vessels and successful recoveries will each send a message.

-Pay for vessels when you press the build button, not at launch.

Note: 0.24 has a really annoying GUI bug that causes click-throughs in the Space Center scene. This means that clicking on a GUI will often have you enter the VAB, SPH, etc. I have gotten around this, but the way I did causes KSP to pause, meaning pressing Warp To Complete may not seem to function WHILE THE MOUSE IS OVER THE BUILD LIST WINDOW. Moving it off of the build list will allow time to resume normally. Basically, while the mouse is hovering over the build list, time stops.

Editing is broken in this build. I will try to get it back up and running for the next release, which will primarily be a new feature release.

Support for existing saves is possibly questionable. It won't work quite right with 0.23.5 careers with KCT as any existing vessels in the build list/storage will not have been paid for (and thus you will pay for them at launch). It should work with existing 0.24 careers. Sandbox shouldn't be affected.

Edit: Also, those of you with the update checker set to auto won't see this update in-game since it only displays updates for the current KSP version. Thus, when I release a new 0.24 update you will be notified in game. I'm going to make it an option to see all updates or just ones for the current KSP version in the next update.

A note on DebRefund compatibility: If you use KCT and DebRefund together, KCT will not refund any funds. It lets DebRefund handle that (or Stage Recovery if you're still using that for some reason). The author of DebRefund and I are in talks to add support so that his code would do all the recovery checks and he'd just give me a list of parts which are recovered, along with a damage value. Unfortunately that is not implemented yet (ready on my side, waiting for him to put in his checks for KCT) but I will push an update when it is.

MAGICO

WHY U NO IN ADDON RELEASE?

Now seriously, perhaps are you just polishing a little b4 going to the big addon release tread? I have seen far worse and incomplete mods on that page, i think KCT can eventually get its own modding mondays spotlight! Keep Up!

[magico13]

MAGICO

WHY U NO IN ADDON RELEASE?

Now seriously, perhaps are you just polishing a little b4 going to the big addon release tread? I have seen far worse and incomplete mods on that page, i think KCT can eventually get its own modding mondays spotlight! Keep Up!

I'm trying to get there but I never quite feel like it's complete enough. People keep suggesting good new features! Maybe after the next feature release, once everything's been tested and found working.

Edit: To avoid double posting, I'm just going to mention this here. I just pushed a small update, PR7.0.1, which disables the recovery messages if DebRefund or StageRecovery are installed. IT also makes them not appear if the mod is disabled in sandbox or science mode. In career mode they will stay enabled, even if KCT itself is disabled. With that, the events are still triggered if KCT is disabled for a save (meaning disabling isn't quite the same as removing the mod altogether). If people really want disabling the mod for a save to disable EVERY feature of KCT, let me know. That's technically never worked properly, since if you load a save that isn't disabled, then load one that is, the events would still trigger in the disabled save. That should actually happen less now (only the booster recovery remains enabled, and maybe one or two other things.)

If you've got automatic update checking enabled, you should have been alerted to this update on the build list. Please let me know if you were! (it only checks when you first start KSP)

TL;DR: Small update to fix some things with the recovery messages and to make the update checker check only for the current KSP version or all of them.

Edited July 20, 2014 by magico13

[guto8797]

I'm trying to get there but I never quite feel like it's complete enough. People keep suggesting good new features! Maybe after the next feature release, once everything's been tested and found working.

Just because you go into addon release doesnt mean you can't add new features! A lot of mods there even undergo major reworks, remote tech, EEL, etc. Just more marketing, publicity and "customers". But i think the mod is pretty ready for it, no gamebreaking bugs or nothing.

ALso, a question, the same way the game is able to save the craft's name even witouth saving, why can't KCT save the kerbal you selected on the screen and put it as default on the crew screen? Not essential, but would've been nice to have.

[magico13]

ALso, a question, the same way the game is able to save the craft's name even witouth saving, why can't KCT save the kerbal you selected on the screen and put it as default on the crew screen? Not essential, but would've been nice to have.

It used to do this, but there were some serious issues with it if the root part wasn't the first crewed part (aka, starting with an SRB or even the lab module). I would like to add it back in if I get a nice, working version (I might be able to now, my knowledge of ConfigNodes is increasing). Otherwise, clicking the "Fill" button on the first part shouldn't be too much of a hassle for the time being

[rocketsBuilder]

very nice mod! i would say potentially one of best mods for 0.24, one of those "must have" mods!

Tac life support(current version TacLifeSupport_0.9.0.9-pre3) + your mod = game crash on Continue Saved Game stage.

double checked that.

maybe that will help, somehow

Do i need to install Debrefund, or it's build-in already?

and quick question, i have not found that in manuals. What exactly is "build time at 0.1 BP/s" option for? i can set it to 1000 and have anything almost instant builded. that makes no sense :/

Edited July 20, 2014 by rocketsBuilder

[severedsolo]

very nice mod! i would say potentially one of best mods for 0.24, one of those "must have" mods!

Tac life support(current version TacLifeSupport_0.9.0.9-pre3) + your mod = game crash on Continue Saved Game stage.

double checked that.

maybe that will help, somehow

I'm also running TAC and it works fine for me. There MAY be an issue with Simulations around other bodies. I just tried to run a simulation around Mun and my craft didn't get hyper-edited to Mun like it normally does. Unfortunately when I tried to replicate after removing all other mods it worked... so don't know if it was just a glitch or a mod conflict, I'll mention it anyway in case anyone else runs into it.

[guto8797]

A real non related question now. Won't TAC make Kerbal rescue missions impossible? Like they die whenever you try to save em?

[MK3424]

It is maybe a stupid question but i wonder:Why is the edit function removed?

Because i used to build the launcher first and then modify the launcher when it's ready to add it's payload.

[Floppster]

...and quick question, i have not found that in manuals. What exactly is "build time at 0.1 BP/s" option for? i can set it to 1000 and have anything almost instant builded. that makes no sense :/

The build time at x BP/s tells you how long it would take to build the ship if you had a build rate of x BP/s.

Increasing that number in the editor does not change the time it actually takes to build it, it just tells you how long it would take if you had 1000 BP/s build rate.

[magico13]

Do i need to install Debrefund, or it's build-in already?

and quick question, i have not found that in manuals. What exactly is "build time at 0.1 BP/s" option for? i can set it to 1000 and have anything almost instant builded. that makes no sense :/

Floppster gives a good explanation for your second question. It's just for estimating build times in the editor at different build rates (clicking the "*" button will cycle through the appropriate build rates that you currently have). As for your first question, DebRefund is not needed as KCT has it's own funds recovery. If it is installed then KCT won't do funds recovery but will still recover parts (but no message is given by KCT). DebRefund is in fact NOT RECOMMENDED to use with KCT at the current time, until the author adds the compatibility we talked about.

The reason for this is because our recovery requirements are different. It's possible that KCT would recover something that DebRefund wouldn't, not giving a message about the recovery (and not returning funds). The reverse is possible too, where DebRefund recovers something but KCT doesn't, meaning you'll be given a message by DebRefund saying parts were recovered but they wouldn't be added to KCT's part inventory. If you need science or kerbal recovery (which KCT does not do and will not do, since you shouldn't drop Kerbals or science on lift off) then my other mod StageRecovery may suffice until DebRefund adds the requested compatibility. StageRecovery uses the same recovery requirements as KCT so they will work together just fine. Science and Kerbal recovery is disabled by default with StageRecovery though.

Btw, if your build rate is still at 0.1 BP/s, you will definitely want to spend some of your upgrades (Open the build list, click the upgrades button. Then upgrade the 1st rate in either the VAB or the SPH, or both)

It is maybe a stupid question but i wonder:Why is the edit function removed?

It's less removed and more disabled for the time being. It was completely broken by 0.24 but I wanted to get a mostly functional update out ASAP. I will do my best to get it working again for the next major release. You can still scrap the launcher and add the payload in the editor, which will have reduced build times (potentially lower than by editing the payload in since editing does not take the part inventory into account at the moment, so new parts take the maximum amount of time.)

Edited July 20, 2014 by magico13

[JeffreyCor]

I knew that feature was going to be missed With many other mods also getting rapid updates testing for bad interactions is much more ... interesting than usual

[Mr Shifty]

Is this a known issue? I just started a new game with KCT and RemoteTech both installed. When I try to simulate a vessel, I can't control it because no RT connection. If I just launch it normally (after build) however, it's fine.

[jfjohnny5]

I think I'm seeing a bug with research time.

With 0 upgrades put into it, the first node is taking me 9 days and 6 hours to unlock. When I click to research it in the tech tree, I get the text in the upper left that says it should unlock in 2.5 days. But when I exit out to the KSC view and pull up the KCT window, it indicates 9 days, 6 hours - which is what it actually ends up taking. Putting an upgrade point into Development does then half that time.

It looks like the initial calculation is flipped. It's taking 2 days per science point instead of 2 science points per day.

[MK3424]

It's less removed and more disabled for the time being. It was completely broken by 0.24 but I wanted to get a mostly functional update out ASAP. I will do my best to get it working again for the next major release. You can still scrap the launcher and add the payload in the editor, which will have reduced build times (potentially lower than by editing the payload in since editing does not take the part inventory into account at the moment, so new parts take the maximum amount of time.)

Thanks for the reply!

Don't rush it, but i'm happy to hear that it will be fixed.

[magico13]

I think I'm seeing a bug with research time.

The issue here is probably that you're using Kerbin Days and the 2.5 days is in 24 hour days. Either way it is going to take 60 hours. It's just a bug with the message being hardcoded to 24 hour days. I'll fix it for next version.

Is this a known issue? I just started a new game with KCT and RemoteTech both installed. When I try to simulate a vessel, I can't control it because no RT connection. If I just launch it normally (after build) however, it's fine.

I haven't seen this in the past but I haven't used RT with 0.24 yet. I believe JeffreyCor has though (one of the two official testers), so he will likely test this and let you know if he sees the same thing. I'm not sure why there would be any difference between the two. What happens if you disable build times and then try simulating and try launching? If launching works and simulating doesn't then it's an issue with simulations for sure.

Thanks for the reply!

Don't rush it, but i'm happy to hear that it will be fixed.

I'm taking a bit of a break since trying to update took me two days of virtually non-stop testing and fixing. Combined with me releasing StageRecovery and then being promptly upstaged be DebRefund, it's been a busy time After a day or two of not working on this I'll get back into working on bug fixes and new features.

Edited July 20, 2014 by magico13

[JeffreyCor]

Is this a known issue? I just started a new game with KCT and RemoteTech both installed. When I try to simulate a vessel, I can't control it because no RT connection. If I just launch it normally (after build) however, it's fine.

I haven't seen any problem like you describe, RT connection in both launch and simulation have functioned identically in testing. Under all conditions, if you have an unmanned craft you have to have an active antenna or launch clamp (provides effectively a hard line connection). If using FASA clamps editing of the RT2 antenna cfg is needed to add support for those.

Edited July 20, 2014 by JeffreyCor