should the kraken bugs be tamed?

[michaelphoenix22]

With all the talks on the boards about ways to exploit the kraken bugs im sure the devs are getting more and more data on how it happens and probably have a few ideas on how to fix it easier. MY question to you is should they?

[megaprime13]

One does not simply,

Tame the Kraken.

[Captain Sierra]

With all the talks on the boards about ways to exploit the kraken bugs im sure the devs are getting more and more data on how it happens and probably have a few ideas on how to fix it easier. MY question to you is should they?

The bug which is exploited in the KrakenDrive is nigh impossible to trigger inadvertently. It's a bug you have to work to exploit. Since KSP is not a competitive game against other players, there's no incentive to squash bugs that do not negatively effect gameplay. An exploit, by definition, is a circumvention of game rules to gain an upper hand on an opponent. Since KSP has no opponent (Well, I play adversarial kethane wars with my friend but that's about it, no orbital war like some people zekes . . .), there is technically nothing to really be gained. KSP is a game with a lot of roleplay opportunity, so the choice to use the technology (and KrakenDrives are some really precision engineered devices, I've tried and struggled to make them) is entirely up to the individual and I personally believe that as long as the bug powering those drives does not interfere with normal, non-bug-exploiting gameplay, there is no reason or benefit to take the time to fix it.

One does not simply,

Tame the Kraken.

How many times has Squad tried and it still lives? The kraken will always find a place to hide. The game physics can't cover *every* situation players will get into. *cough*surface of jool*cough*

[Jouni]

The bug which is exploited in the KrakenDrive is nigh impossible to trigger inadvertently. It's a bug you have to work to exploit.

Are you sure about that? Without knowing any specifics, it seems to me that the phenomena people call the kraken are all closely related glitches in the physics simulation. There are probably a small number of root causes behind them, so if you fix some of the bugs that cause problems to people, the kraken drive may be gone as well.

In principle, it's probably quite easy to fix the kraken. The hard thing is doing it efficiently enough that the physics simulation can run in real time on low-end hardware (anything you can have on your desktop, as opposed to a data center, is low-end).

[Geschosskopf]

I would be very happy to see the ship-eating, sometimes game-wrecking Krakens slain. However, I would be disappointed Kerbal physics ever got around to eliminating the several forms of reactionless drives we can make. They're just fun and do no harm at least in single player.

I mean, the Kraken Drive is something you have to work to make, and it's not very reliable anyway. And the ladder glitch is plausible for moving small rovers and boats with a bicycle chain mechanism. When it comes to flying in space with ladders, that's a bit of a stretch without UFO technology but why not just for a change of pace sometimes?

But Squad is now working on some sort of multiplayer, so I fear they might feel compelled to stop such things.

[Justin Kerbice]

In principle, it's probably quite easy to fix the kraken. The hard thing is doing it efficiently enough that the physics simulation can run in real time on low-end hardware (anything you can have on your desktop, as opposed to a data center, is low-end).

Not so easy if it's related to Unity issue(s).

The bad in using API/engine is you have to carry their own bag of issues and you almost can't do anything about it. A good example is joints'weakness.

[SkyHook]

Should inadvertent and malicious errors in operation be fixed? Yes.

[SpaceSphereOfDeath]

As a K-drive engineer I would say no, but from a gameplay standpoint then yes, they must be fixed

[Silverchain]

Since KSP is not a competitive game against other players

I disagree; look at the prevalence of (often misleading and falsely claimed) forum achievement badges and sigs and the adulation accorded Scott Manley (etc.; nothing against him, I hasten to add) as examples. There's an element of competition, looked-for or not, unless you play the game completely in isolation from the interwebs.

OP: yes, I think the Kraken in at least its serious manifestations should be killed. I don't appreciate exploding ships and ships accelerating to lightspeed that hang the game and (worse!) put my save at risk. And although I find the K-drive and similar clipping powered stuff interesting to see and explore I'd prefer the problems to be removed.

[Jouni]

Not so easy if it's related to Unity issue(s).

The bad in using API/engine is you have to carry their own bag of issues and you almost can't do anything about it. A good example is joints'weakness.

Of course, practical issues might make it hard. In principle, the developers could just ditch Unity and implement completely new physics simulation. That would take a lot of time, but time-consuming is different from hard. The hard part would be, as I said, making it efficient enough to run in real time on desktop hardware.

Something that a group of talented, motivated people can be reasonably expected to achieve in a few years isn't hard. If you can expect people to do it, it's just average performance. For example, getting a PhD isn't hard in itself.

[Captain Sierra]

I disagree; look at the prevalence of (often misleading and falsely claimed) forum achievement badges and sigs and the adulation accorded Scott Manley (etc.; nothing against him, I hasten to add) as examples. There's an element of competition, looked-for or not, unless you play the game completely in isolation from the interwebs.

...

You misread me. There is always community competition but there is none in the game. There is no way you can 'beat' someone head to head in a race to the Mun, and even still, it's not Titanfall. What I meant by that is there are no ingame win loss conditions. It's a sandbox game. Can you win in minecraft if you are playing creative? Case and point.

As for challenges and stuff, those have their own rules, which vary between each. Since there is no direct head to head multiplayer yet (and may never will be; multiplayer will not be strictly head to head, as it becomes whatever the players decide to do with it, like station coops), there's no exploits that can be used to gain an upper hand on someone else.

Now, the forums are an entirely different animal and I won't dare try and handle that. My sig ribbons haven't been changed out in a while which means I need to get going on my Grand Tour attempt again. I want that shiny grand tour shield, if for nothing other than my own personal enjoyment.

[Jean Deaux]

All I know is that the Kraken in my system is fat and well fed.

(And the Kraken I refer to is the one that eats my ships)

Edited February 23, 2014 by Jean Deaux

[ArmchairGravy]

The exploit does not affect me as I have no interest in using it. If people want to roll that way, have at it. The devs have better things to spend their time on IMHO.

[Epthelyn]

I disagree; look at the prevalence of (often misleading and falsely claimed) forum achievement badges and sigs and the adulation accorded Scott Manley (etc.; nothing against him, I hasten to add) as examples. There's an element of competition, looked-for or not, unless you play the game completely in isolation from the interwebs.

Then it the fault of the competitors if they abuse engine bugs which aren't meant to be there. If you hadn't noticed, most of the better competitions and challenges have fairly clearly outlined rules (including, although interpretations seem to vary, the banners).

[ferram4]

I'm generally against such exploits remaining in the game, primarily because if they can be caused accidentally they'll cause lots of confusion for players that don't know what's going on. After all, it's not like pushing on your own arm allows you to fly off at amazing speeds, but that's exactly what the landing leg-powered Kraken Drive does. If the landing leg suspension allows the violation of conservation of momentum it basically allows an Apollo-style lander to send its mother ship onto a different orbit if it manages to crash into it in exactly the correct way. Or possibly cause landed bases to fly apart on physics load under the correct circumstances. Rare, yes. But the Hell Kraken is rare, and that needs to be fixed as well, because both bugs can risk eating missions.

I do have to admit, I find it kind of entertaining to see people breaking the laws of physics, but I think the attitude that completely unrealistic and immersion breaking bugs should be left in the game because it allows a few seconds of amusement is very shortsighted. I think it risks changing KSP from being a space exploration and rocket building game that you can get into for several hours every day into a physics engine toy that gets dropped after a few minutes of fooling around.

[_Aramchek_]

It should stay.

In a game like this it offers no more of a threat to "game balance*" than any of the easily available mods do.

And in fact it's more obvious when at work than most mods are.

(*moot point, it's a sandbox imagination game, each person sets their own parameters for play anyway. Ingenuity should be encouraged and not stifled.)

[Raven.]

Depends. Stuff like the Kraken Drive exploit could probably stick around, as you have to work pretty hard in order to see that exploit. But things such as exploding stations, particularly those with the stock capula module, need to be squashed.

By the way, what physics engine does KSP use? Is it a third party engine such as PhysX or is it a home-brew Unity engine?

[flyin_ruski]

The next update may hinder the operation of the K-drive. Or make it better. I have to wait and see.

I would be slightly disappointed if the K-drive was fixed after the countless hours I spent making mine functional.

[Seret]

I do have to admit, I find it kind of entertaining to see people breaking the laws of physics, but I think the attitude that completely unrealistic and immersion breaking bugs should be left in the game because it allows a few seconds of amusement is very shortsighted.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I totally understand why the k-drive folks would be irked at someone taking their new toy away from them, but if I was them I would assume their fun was on borrowed time. It is a bug, if you're expecting it to stay in you're probably setting yourself up for disappointment. You could always archive away a copy of the current version of the game if you wanted to have a play with it in the future.

[Starwhip]

As long as the game is still being officially developed, it should stay. But once it is released, I think it must go.