House Committee Chairman Encourages NASA To Send Crew Flyby Mars in 2021

[meve12]

Definitely chemical rockets, no time to develop one or get the public swayed.

NERVA's already been tested and proven on the ground; It got shelved when the Mars mission proposal did after Apollo.

VASMIR's gonna get tested on the ISS in 2016.

We'll have alternatives to chem rockets by the time 2021 rolls around.

[meve12]

Have they looked into the difficulty of keeping human beings sane under those conditions? I'd think that would be a bigger problem than the life support and shielding and consumables problems. Human psychology doesn't hold up well to being stuck in a small box for 2 years with nowhere to go.

Inflatable Habs could help that a bit; (some) more living space for your payload mass/volume.

Otherwise keep em' busy. Have the crew members cross train eachother whilst in transit, and make most of the non-critical tasks doable manually(preferably in a short-sleeve environment. Include a big electronic "library", spare computers for games/backups, and lightweight, magnetized pieces for nonelectronic games. Also include a wide variety of foodstocks, and high-quality air filters and scents to alleviate the inevitable stench.

A stock of cockroaches (to eat skin cells and other organic debris, preventing them from rotting) may also be a good investment, although not for the entomophobic.

If you're going to use an algae farm, consider bring some fiber(or growing it with more algae) to add digestion and add something to chew. Also include lots of flavoring.

[Roastduck]

Inflatable Habs could help that a bit; (some) more living space for your payload mass/volume.

spare computers for games

if those computers don't include KSP, I will RIOT.

[Piwa]

Those who really understand what I mean with 100% certainty that the person will not go to Mars earlier 2030-2040 period. It's just a duck...

[Seret]

Why? You still haven't given a single factor that'd differ between a mars flyby and just keeping the same craft in a medium or high earth orbit, excepting of course the cost.

I'm still not quite sure what the point you're trying to make is. So you're suggesting that we launch all the hardware for a Mars mission into Earth orbit and test it there? Ok, fine that's a nice conservative approach. You'd be able to do most of what you could do on a flyby, obviously you're not carrying out all the maneuvers you would be otherwise, and crew psychology would still be a big question mark.

Would you then go straight from that to scaling up for a landing later, or are you suggesting they should do both the Earth orbit mission and the flyby later?

The human race would get nowhere if everyone was a defeatist and pessmist.

Look, this kind of name calling does you more harm than good. If you want to be taken seriously keep your arguments rational. Not everybody who disagrees with your personal vision for space exploration does so because of some kind of character flaw.

Have they looked into the difficulty of keeping human beings sane under those conditions?

Yes, it's one of the big unanswered questions of interplanetary flight. There have been some experiments done, results have been a bit mixed. It's a genuine issue. Prospective astronauts would have to be picked carefully.

[Nibb31]

Have they looked into the difficulty of keeping human beings sane under those conditions? I'd think that would be a bigger problem than the life support and shielding and consumables problems. Human psychology doesn't hold up well to being stuck in a small box for 2 years with nowhere to go.

There have been several studies on the subject, including shutting people inside a bunker for 500 days to see how they react. The key is to keep them busy. If all else fails, there is always medication... It's really not an unsolvable issue.

The biggest issue is definitely life support.

[1of6Billion]

THIS WOULD BE BAD. WHy not, if going to Mars, ACTUALLY GO TO MARS. Why beat around the bush and not land? There's no reason not to land on Mars if you're already there.

I can't believe I read this on the KSP forum.

Anyone who has ever tried a landing and return mission to Duna knows it's far more complicated than a one way trip.

[Horn Brain]

I think the flyby to Mars and Venus is a good opportunity to test interplanetary travel. We get a free-return, so we don't have to do much maneuvering, but we can still test the reliability of various components that would be needed to, say, do an orbital insertion. It would be like Apollo 10 : Apollo 11 :: Mars flyby free return : Mars orbital mission.

BUT

It makes no sense to do this mission as a one-off publicity stunt. It has to be a part of a concerted effort to develop the ability to send humans to other worlds, eventually permanently. If this accelerates the SLS program and we get a EML2 space station out of it, then I would be for it, because it would be a part of a clear direction to establish a presence outside of LEO, learn how to live for long periods without an immediate escape opportunity constantly available, and develop hardware for living in space and getting back and forth from the surface of another world.

My notional plan given this opportunity:

2017: Test of Orion and SLS. There is a push to make this manned, but I don't think it's necessary given the accelerated schedule.

2018-2020: As many SLS flights as needed to establish and operate the EML2 station. Could be one or two if the wet workshop model is used (but I would like a module with windows -- That's important). Testing life support and other driving factors for the Mars flyby should be done early. Infrastructure for refueling and/or resource processing could also be a goal of testing.

2021: Mars and Venus flyby. Ultimate proof that we can send humans beyond the Earth's domain and bring them back safely. Pictures of Mars and Venus through the windows get everyone really excited.

2022 and beyond: Shift focus back to the Moon, developing landing technology and testing surface EVA tech: New suits, rovers, etc. We should establish a permanent base wherever is most convenient (I would argue for the poles because of illumination concerns as well as resource opportunities). This will also give us another data point on the effects of other-than-one-g gravity on humans in the long term. (If 1/6 g is enough or nearly enough, then 1/3 will be great!). If resource processing testing is done at EML2, another interesting possibility would be to do the Asteroid Redirect Mission and park the asteroid at EML2 with the station for continued access. We could use our pet asteroid to test NEA/Martian moon mission technology without leaving cislunar space.

It's important the the 2022+ lunar operations are always clearly defined as a testbed for reaching further. We should put it in the name of the program. Designs should focus on using as much hardware that is compatible with a Mars mission as possible.

[Nibb31]

My notional plan given this opportunity:

2017: Test of Orion and SLS. There is a push to make this manned, but I don't think it's necessary given the accelerated schedule.

2018-2020: As many SLS flights as needed to establish and operate the EML2 station. Could be one or two if the wet workshop model is used (but I would like a module with windows -- That's important). Testing life support and other driving factors for the Mars flyby should be done early. Infrastructure for refueling and/or resource processing could also be a goal of testing.

2021: Mars and Venus flyby. Ultimate proof that we can send humans beyond the Earth's domain and bring them back safely. Pictures of Mars and Venus through the windows get everyone really excited.

To be ready in 2018 (or even 2021), they should already be cutting metal and building stuff. It takes years to design and build space hardware. But there is nothing to be seen.

There are no current plans for any SLS payloads other than Orion with a 21-day ECLSS, no habs or extended duration modules, no landers, no interplanetary stages, and no SLS launchers have been ordered other than for EM-1 in 2017 and EM-2 in 2021.

Really guys, a manned two-week shakedown mission is all we can hope for in 2021. Any interplanetary stunts for 2021 are ruled out because nothing is being built for that.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Nibb31

[SargeRho]

The Cygnus exists and has flown 2 or 3 times, and Orion will be ready for manned flight by 2021 if I'm not mistaken. Shouldn't it be possible to design and test the modified Cygnus sufficiently in 7 years?

[Horn Brain]

These things can indeed be done by 2018 (the beginning of the EML2 station, specifically). They just need to be funded and directed. That's what's exciting about Congress being interested in this. If they want to fund it, we can absolutely do the flyby. The SLS actually becomes rather economical if we fly it once or twice a year.

[mdatspace]

There is no deep space habitat for Orion. Without that, Orion is a cis-lunar taxi cab.

Where is the funding for this mission?

Edited March 3, 2014 by mdatspace

[Rakaydos]

There is no deep space habitat for Orion. Without that, Orion is a cis-lunar taxi cab.

There can be, literally, a bolt on fix for that. Send up an inflatable hab in a separate launch, and a better engine as a third, and assemble the craft in orbit.

[mdatspace]

There can be, literally, a bolt on fix for that. Send up an inflatable hab in a separate launch, and a better engine as a third, and assemble the craft in orbit.

You are right. But where is the funding for this mission? If this mission wants to go further than a proposal, there needs to be funding.

[Motokid600]

Inflatable Habs could help that a bit; (some) more living space for your payload mass/volume.

Otherwise keep em' busy. Have the crew members cross train eachother whilst in transit, and make most of the non-critical tasks doable manually(preferably in a short-sleeve environment. Include a big electronic "library", spare computers for games/backups, and lightweight, magnetized pieces for nonelectronic games. Also include a wide variety of foodstocks, and high-quality air filters and scents to alleviate the inevitable stench.

A stock of cockroaches (to eat skin cells and other organic debris, preventing them from rotting) may also be a good investment, although not for the entomophobic.

If you're going to use an algae farm, consider bring some fiber(or growing it with more algae) to add digestion and add something to chew. Also include lots of flavoring.

Silk worms can be grown and eaten too, no? I love the idea of small simple solutions for issues like that.

[NASAFanboy]

To be ready in 2018 (or even 2021), they should already be cutting metal and building stuff. It takes years to design and build space hardware. But there is nothing to be seen.

There are no current plans for any SLS payloads other than Orion with a 21-day ECLSS, no habs or extended duration modules, no landers, no interplanetary stages, and no SLS launchers have been ordered other than for EM-1 in 2017 and EM-2 in 2021.

Really guys, a manned two-week shakedown mission is all we can hope for in 2021. Any interplanetary stunts for 2021 are ruled out because nothing is being built for that.

They're already building the SLS for the 2017 launch.

Metal is being cut and welded, and they're building the structure.

[Skyler4856]

While this sounds fascinating, it seems like a hopeless fantasy. Most I would hope for would be a lunar fly-by.

[Rakaydos]

While this sounds fascinating, it seems like a hopeless fantasy. Most I would hope for would be a lunar fly-by.

We can do a lunar flyby any time. I believe Orion is supposed to do a manned lunar flyby by 2018. It's what happens NEXT that is being discussed, and this 3 planet alignment doesnt happen every century.

[Nibb31]

There can be, literally, a bolt on fix for that. Send up an inflatable hab in a separate launch, and a better engine as a third, and assemble the craft in orbit.

What bolt-on inflatable hab is currently sitting on a shelf, complete with power, thermal control, and an ECLSS capable of running reliably in a closed loop for 2 years? What bolt-on "better engine" is sitting around waiting for a mission? What launcher is being built to launch those things before 2021?

We're not playing with Legos here. You don't just bolt stuff together and launch it. Space craft design and integration is a long and tedious process that requires extensive studies and simulations before you even start cutting any metal.

With current budgets, current flight manifests, and most of the engineering workforce tied up with SLS and Orion, none of that stuff can be developed, built, tested, and integrated in the 6 year period between now and 2021.

They're already building the SLS for the 2017 launch.

Metal is being cut and welded, and they're building the structure.

Already? It's only in 3 years. That's actually a short time to finish building the launcher and to do all the testing and integration work. They're on track, but I wouldn't say "already".

However, you missed my point, which was that no mission payloads are being developed to put on top of SLS, other than Orion, which as mdatspace put it, is just a 21-day cislunar taxi that can't do much on its own.

We can do a lunar flyby any time. I believe Orion is supposed to do a manned lunar flyby by 2018.

Man, read the thread already... It's been stated a dozen times that the SLS manifest is EM-1 unmanned in 2017 and EM-2 manned in 2021. That's all there is for now.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Nibb31

[Rocketscience101]

You sorta have your facts wrong, the flyby would occur in 2021, the launch window is 2018. This really is the best time, every 3 years the sun goes through a phase of solar maximum and solar minimum. Maximum is when there are a large amount of solar flares that could potentially harm outgoing astronauts. This mission just in the middle of solar minimum, when the sun has a low output of radiation, and little to no solar flares. This won't happen again when a launch window and solar minimum will be in 2031. This is because mars and Earth become at a close approach every 2 1/2 years.

[Motokid600]

This is an interesting read.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2008/nov/06/magnetic-shield-could-protect-spacecraft.

But if were going to send people out there the craft is going to need a panic room regardless of the suns cycle. How predictable is the Sun?

[3_bit]

I think we do need a delay because it would have been ~50 years since we last did a Moon mission by 2021. We may need a bit of practice and some Moon flyby missions dropping off equipment for a Moon base (automated or not) would be the perfect way to test candidates for a much-longer Mars mission.

[Northstar1989]

This simply HAS TO happen...

Let's see, the facts:

- This set of planetary alignments happens less than once every 100 years

- The sun will be in the middle of a solar minimum (once every 3 years)

- The sun is starting to go a potentially long-term (decades or centuries) increase in the amount of cosmic (extrasolar) radiation it allows to penetrate this close to it- which will SIGNIFICANTLY increase radiation exposure during interplanetary missions further off than 2021. This change could possibly be permanent, according to some scientists...

So, we won't see another opportunity like this for at least a couple centuries- possibly longer if the solar minimum doesn't line up next time- and there might be higher levels of radiation to contend with when we do...

It sounds like now is the best chance we're going to get to launch a mission like this, pretty much EVER.

The scientific benefits maybe be... questionable. But the space race it could set off- that would be immensely useful to the future of space exploration. We probably wouldn't have *ever* left LEO if not for the Space Race (politicians would have been forever calling it too risky and expensive) IMHO...

Regards,

Northstar

[Motokid600]

I agree Northstar it's a he'll of an opportunity. But... Can we get a space craft assembled by then? Correct me on this, but the alignment is in 2021. It's a two year journey so does that mean the launch window is in 2019?

I don't know if five years... Or even seven years is enough time to assemble a reliable craft to do the job. Because I tell ya right now if we throw together some sketchy space machine and something goes wrong.. it's curtains for the future of space exploration for a good while.

That being said.. it's not worth it imo. I understand the rarity of the alignment, but.. so what? Future Mars missions won't rely on Venus being in the right place so I say let's take our time and do it right.

[Bacterius]

If they do then they will need a live feed during the flyby. Or at least an HD recording