Jets in career mode?

[travis575757]

At the moment jets seem pretty useless in career mode, you get them much later on after rockets and they are much slower. Even for finding science on the planet they lack a use for getting places because rockets will get you there much faster. When it comes to jet engines in general the normal jet engine is even more useless. It seems like the only way jet engines could ever have much of a use is if you had to use them before you unlocked rockets. It would be great if someone else knew more about this and what plans are currently made for jets and their functionality. Maybe another type of career mode could be made for just starting with jets? Possibly a difficulty for career when easy you start with rockets and on hard you have to start with very basic jets and get samples from flying around the planet. Normal could have you start off with hard stuff but with better science equipment so it is easier to get science. It would nice to see what you guys think/know about jets in career mode.

[95tiger59]

I think they are fine as they are, besides taking the points you made on their usefulness in career is pretty much the same in sandbox. to be honest if you want to start career with jets instead Tree loader has a tech tree that starts with plane tech

[CalculusWarrior]

I do hope for a rebalancing of the tech tree eventually.

[lockpicker]

I'm with the OP on this matter. I find the use of space planes in a non modded KSP to be minimal. I only use them to do acrobatic stunts over KSC. Even travelling with rockets is easier, as suborbital travelling is faster than flying to the place you want(e.g. the other side of the planet).

[Jouni]

Basic jets are quite useful as boosters, before you have access to turbojets. With them, you save something like 2000 m/s from the rocket stage, so you can reach 25% payload fraction to LKO.

[Hodo]

The stock tech tree is a place holder. If you want a better progression there is a mod for that, that does a fantastic job of giving you a realistic progression through the tech tree.

[TMS]

Tech tree makes a lot of things irrelevant.

I got the impression from the last dev webcast that the tree 'shape' would remain, but that it was currently dysfunctional because of a lack of parts (and, presumably, would be filled in by a backlog at some point).

[Dispatcher]

By the time jets are obtained in the stock tech tree now, its possible to have already done most of the science available on Kerbin. However, this very technology can be very useful for obtaining Laythe science (at least by reducing the mass required for a mission launch from Kerbin).

[Jouni]

Turbojets are of course even more powerful than basic jets. You save over 4000 m/s from the launch stages, with payload fractions to LKO increasing to over 30%. Yet at that point, launch efficiency is no longer that important, as you already have the parts to build big rockets easily.

Laythe landers should naturally use some kind of air-breathing engines to reduce their size, but I'm not sure if there is any point in doing missions to Laythe for science. With the huge number of different biomes and science experiments available, there are easier ways to get the points needed to unlock the entire tech tree.

[Captain Vlad]

I actually got quite a bit of use out of the jet tech in career mode. The best thing about a jet, to me, is that you can land and take off again, allowing you to sample multiple biomes on the same trip. And then when you unlock new science tech, you can go do it again.

This turned out to be especially handy in situations where I didn't QUITE have enough to unlock something. Kerbin's science multiplier is low, but sometimes it's great to jump in a jet, run out, and get the five points you need for rover wheels with a barometer and a thermometer on the side of your cockpit.

I do wish you could get science awards for doing 'faster, farther, higher' type stuff when in-atmosphere. Never get a jet to Mach 3? Be awesome if passing that threshold netted you a few points (more if you didn't end the trip in a fireball).

[Pecan]

With the current tech tree and documentation (virtually nil) career mode is just a bit silly. Reading/watching tutorials then following them in sandbox mode is a better way to learn how to do things and a better way of getting them done.

[Dispatcher]

Laythe landers should naturally use some kind of air-breathing engines to reduce their size, but I'm not sure if there is any point in doing missions to Laythe for science. With the huge number of different biomes and science experiments available, there are easier ways to get the points needed to unlock the entire tech tree.

True at this time. I'm of the opinion that such could change as the game (especially Career mode) matures.

You touched on an interesting situation for me. I had designed a Laythe mission (with turbojet assisted lander/ return vehicle) and had done all the design work except for the launcher. Then I decided to grab the remaining points needed to unlock the last of the tree by doing a close orbit of the sun, instead. That did the trick, and it saved me the trouble of completing a 1500 part or so Laythe mission. However, I think at some point I'll do it anyway. I had fun testing it at Kerbin.

[cantab]

The thing to remember is that jet engines can be used on lower stages of vertical-launch rockets, they aren't limited to planes. And jets are really fuel-efficient. Several times better than the nuclear engine, and rivalling the ion engine - and of course much more thrust than either. So yes, they should be reasonably far up the tech tree.

[syfyguy64]

This will all be fixed by .50. I imagine that there will be a dirt runway that you start with, have a basic jet engine, a mk-2 cockpit, the flat mig like wings, a nose cone, fuel tank, and intake. You have to build a VAB which will be a 2-3 story shed, and it will progress on and on. But that won't be for 3 years.

[cantab]

Even if it doesn't reflect history, I think the career mode will always have a focus on rockets. That's kind of what the game sells itself on, and I've at least found the rockets easier to build and fly.

[arq]

No (stock) version of this game will keep you from rockets at the very beginning and force you to build and fly planes around at first. This is Kerbal *Space* Program, not Kerbal Flight Simulator. Planes are something of an afterthought (though they are certainly very fun and interesting to mess around with).

Nothing says that Kerbals developed science in the same timeline that we did. If you really want a justification, consider that jet engines are a 20th century innovation, while rockets have been around since at least the 13th century. The design principles of rockets are much simpler, so I have no issue allowing them to be earlier in Kerbal science.

[jwenting]

as aircraft are a lot harder to use in KSP than rockets this has to fall under the "let's make things harder for inexperienced players for the sake of making things harder for inexperienced players and drive them away from the game" category.

[Corw]

as aircraft are a lot harder to use in KSP than rockets this has to fall under the "let's make things harder for inexperienced players for the sake of making things harder for inexperienced players and drive them away from the game" category.

Well, yes, but you could make an option at start of the career if you want to start with jets only, like harder mode for more experience players. As long as you have options I don't see it as a problem.

[Madrias]

Personally, I'd like to see the tech tree introduce aircraft stuff a little earlier. I struggle big time with rockets, but once I've got wings, I tend to do well for throwing planes into orbit. The hardest part of career mode, for me at least, is getting my wings and then getting my fuel lines. Struts aren't super necessary, but they're useful.

I guess some of it comes down to the old knowledge bin. I knew nothing of orbital mechanics when I first started playing. I barely knew much about rockets, but I've built remote controlled aircraft from nothing but electronics and foam. A rough working knowledge of aerodynamics got me into space in KSP, as once you've got a design that flies, all you need is to increase the amount of thrust behind it to increase speed. Go fast enough and you'll settle into an orbit.

So as I've noticed, with the jets and wings buried several layers deep (to get the good parts, at least) in the tech tree, it cuts out the ability to really do spaceplanes early, making the aerodynamically-minded strain unless they're willing to learn to make pancake rockets. With delta wings, a good turbojet, and two LV-T45 engines, I can make my first cruise to the Mun or to Minmus. With three LV-T45's, 6 solid fuel boosters, and a few winglets for stability, I struggle to get to orbit. It's a matter of perspective.

That, and it's bloody hard to make a VTOL without a jet, you know. Some of us like being goofy.

[jwenting]

Well, yes, but you could make an option at start of the career if you want to start with jets only, like harder mode for more experience players. As long as you have options I don't see it as a problem.

sadly there's a big group who want to take options away from people, considering anything but the hardest possible to be "cheating" and for some reason getting offended when other people "cheat" in a single player game...

[Javster]

sadly there's a big group who want to take options away from people, considering anything but the hardest possible to be "cheating" and for some reason getting offended when other people "cheat" in a single player game...

I'm strongly against cheating in MP, because you gain an unfair advantage. If you want to restrict yourself, set yourself some rules or do a challenge...

[katateochi]

I agree the tech tree is biased toward rockets but that doesn't prevent you from getting your plane on right from the start.

I did a stock career using only aircraft, for sure the first craft pushed the term "aircraft" a little far, they where basically RSBs on skids with wings, but they did a little flight and earned some points to unlock some things. It took 3 different rocket-plane designs to get enough to unlock a basic jet. Then it played out very "realistically" in terms of the sequence of doing things. I slowly worked my way up from short-hop flights to inter-continental (the first few landing on skids), to suborbital and then into orbit. Then a series of SSTO's that could make it to LKO and then to the local moons, just doing fly-bys to start, then orbiting and eventually I got one that could land and return. After more Mun missions I eventually landed on Duna in a glider and then the final mission was to Laythe.

It took a while and was the hardest career I've ever done but I managed to unlock everything using only aircraft and without setting foot into the VAB. It was a very enjoyable set of missions and I really liked that the tech tree was not favorable to this approach. Like not having landing gears to start with, using strut-skids was fun! It really teaches you to land smoothly!

I focused on unlocking just plane related parts first so I got to basic jets pretty quickly. Getting the more powerful jets took a while, the first SSTO and the first craft to fly-by the moons still used basic jets and lV-909s. I wrote it up as a story about the dawn of Kerbal aviation; The Wrong Brothers - career mode done differently. There's pics of each craft through the career and quite a few pics of the tech tree as I progressed.

The only thing that I think could make aircraft more accessible in career mode is the addition of a really crappy form of atmospheric propulsion (possibly a small propeller, or a really weak jet) that's available early on in career. Then your first 'aircraft' won't have to be SRB propelled, but then again; isn't that something a Kerbal would love?

[Dispatcher]

Hehe! I'd guess that the boat was the first real invention. But we don't have paddle or wind propulsion yet in stock KSP. Further, one could argue that the wheel (or the ski [skid]) came before the rocket, thus mandating that wheels be unlocked early in the tech tree. Imagine rovers among our first science collection vehicles. Yeah, I know, its a rocketry/ space sim, not a driving sim. But truth be told, judging by the variety of craft made and used in KSP (and the fact that the Unity engine uses PhysX), KSP is a "just about anything" simulator. It will be used in unexpected ways.

[cantab]

Propeller engines would be a nice addition to the stock game. Early in the tech tree as mentioned, you'd be able to better make planes to go around Kerbin if it takes your fancy; couple it with a buff to science on Kerbin and/or use of the contracts system. Later in the tech tree, perhaps there could be a prop running on fuel+oxidizer or on electricity, so it'd be good for places like Eve.

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

Maybe jets become usefull when Multiplayer hits and you have to fly your crew over to KSC-2 *wink wink - nudge nudge*