Rosetta, Philae and Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko.

[Streetwind]

Wait, I somehow missed that part of the news about lander trouble. They've lost it? They actually lost the lander? As in, the thing that traveled through Solar System for a decade, performing a triple Earth flyby, came so close to Mars that it nearly scraped atmosphere, and managed to visit several other rocks before rendezvous with 67P? They managed to lose it on a 4km dusty snowball after all that? How embarrassing.

You know, whether they find it or not, and regardless of what other data we gather from the whole deal, this says something about us as a species. We'll do the impossible just to get there, and then go home, because we lost the keys.

"How embarrassing", indeed. Perhaps you can help out by calling ESA and reminding them that pressing M brings up the map view? Or maybe Philae should have included its GPS coordinates when sending telemetry? Maybe they can use cellphone towers to track its movements? Ask the locals how the region is called? Maybe tell them that photographing a half-meter wide grey object on a grey surface at 20 km distance with a 15 year old camera can't possibly be that hard and they should just stop complaining and do it already?

Forgive the dripping sarcasm But that's not how space navigation works. That's not how any of this works at all.

Besides, they did not "lose" the lander. They have a pretty good idea of where it is, in fact, and have had it since the morning after the landing, thanks to CONSERT data. They just haven't been able to photograph it from orbit yet, because "pretty good idea" is not precise enough for something like that, nor is OSIRIS really set up for the purpose.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Streetwind

[Tommygun]

We'll do the impossible just to get there, and then go home, because we lost the keys.

I have an urge to make a wall plaque out of this.

[K^2]

Streetwind, all of your arguments, without exception, apply to the 10 year journey of the Rosetta mission tenfold. They had to place it within a few km of target while tracking it from distances on the order of 10 light minutes. Time after time. Compared to that, a few meters from 20km is peanuts. Oh, and they do have GPS. That's basically what CONSERT data is. Just a shame that they have to come up with hacks on the fly, rather than have it as a feature from the start.

And I'm well aware that they are doing all they can with what they have. But therein lies the irony. They've planned out this impossible 10 year mission, managed to pull it off with just a few close calls, and then they lose the probe. Because nobody, during the entire design of this voyage, has thought that they might want to search for the probe on the comet. The fact that it might bounce off and roll away relatively unharmed just flat out did not occur to anyone. Else, CONSERT would have been dual-purposed for it from the get go.

I'm not saying I could have done better. I would like to think that were I involved, I'd pull my weight on the team. But that's precisely why I made that last comment. This whole thing is very human. We do this all the time. We come up with super intricate ways to solve absurdly complex problems, but what actually catches us off guard are little trivial things. Usually, right at the finish line. And then we come up with a new set of crazy things to do to try and fix it. When we can. And space exploration is like a showcase of that. Philae. Genesis. Mars Climate Orbiter. Hubble. Even Apollo 13 to some extent.

It makes some logical sense that it's always a small detail. But I'm amazed at how trivial it usually is, and that it's almost always the last thing that could have gone wrong. Then again, maybe we just don't hear as much about cases where things go wrong from the start.

[Aethon]

Well I wouldn't say it's been lost.

http://www.universetoday.com/116401/philaes-incredible-comet-landing-sequence-shows-up-in-fresh-rosetta-images/

It sounds like you and others been out of the loop K^2, and I blame it on the slow release of images/info by the ESA. I'm not complaining and I'm not disparaging the ESA. They do things their way and that's fine, but if it wasn't for this thread and you all, I would be in the dark as well. I guess I just like the way NASA does it's PR better. It is a shame though because IMO it contributes to the fallacy that the mission was a failure, which it certainly wasn't.

I see Rosetta and Philae as an UNBELIEVABLE success- they rendezvoused with a comet, landed on it, all the science instruments did their job, and the science was returned to mission control. Over the next decade, this mission will revolutionize our view of the solar system, and yet we get articles like this from a publication that should understand better. http://www.universetoday.com/116345/alone-and-confused-philae-breaks-our-hearts/

Once again Congratz ESA!

Edited November 17, 2014 by Aethon

[PakledHostage]

Amazing sequence of images! Does anyone have an image that includes the location where it likely eventually came to rest? I've only heard conflicting numbers about how far it made it during the two bounces. Some estimates exceed 1 km. Scaling off the image below and the image you posted, Aethon, Philae seems to have covered over 100 m in just 10-12 minutes after its first touchdown. It could have gone a long way in 2 hours. Where do the estimates from CONSERT place it?

And K^2, I don't think your criticism is fair. Philae did have an at least double redundant landing "grappling" system (i.e. the harpoon and the combination of the thruster and the screws). Unfortunately, the harpoon and thruster didn't fire so the screws couldn't have worked either. How much redundancy should they have built in to a mission where every kilogram costs thousands and thousands of dollars and could ultimately affect the probability of success? It is easy to say in hindsight that they should have had more redundant localization systems, but those also cost power. Power that, as it turned out, was at a premium. Soon enough, they will find Philae in images taken by Rosetta. Hopefully that will help them determine the likelihood that Philae can be brought out of hibernation. I don't think it is unreasonable to hope that there may yet be more good science data to come from Philae.

[GoSlash27]

Last update I had, all of the science had been collected.

The one question was whether the drill had actually collected anything for the spectroscopic analysis. Has anyone got an update on that?

If my understanding is correct (and I'm not sure it is), then it really doesn't matter if contact is reestablished with Philae or not.

Best,

-Slashy

[Sun]

Last update I had, all of the science had been collected.

The one question was whether the drill had actually collected anything for the spectroscopic analysis. Has anyone got an update on that?

If my understanding is correct (and I'm not sure it is), then it really doesn't matter if contact is reestablished with Philae or not.

Best,

-Slashy

But.... pictures!

[Camacha]

It sounds like you and others been out of the loop K^2, and I blame it on the slow release of images/info by the ESA. I'm not complaining and I'm not disparaging the ESA. They do things their way and that's fine, but if it wasn't for this thread and you all, I would be in the dark as well. I guess I just like the way NASA does it's PR better. It is a shame though because IMO it contributes to the fallacy that the mission was a failure, which it certainly wasn't.

What does NASA do better? ESA did a live broadcast of the whole event and released pictures within hours of landing - pretty much as soon as they could get them home. ESA did updates with a whole load of involved scientists at least every half day. Meanwhile, you should not forget that they knew this lander was only going to last for a few days. Would you rather have everyone giving fancy press statements every few minutes, or let them do all the science that could be done?

There was a live stream, there is a blog with all sorts of new and relevant pictures, there is a Facebook account with updates and one on Twitter too. The audience can ask questions and they will be answered. What more could you want? It almost seems people want live streaming HD from 5 million kilometer away and everything less is not going to cut it

[GregA]

Heh.

http://www.cnet.com/news/rosettas-comet-is-singing-and-it-sounds-totally-bizarre/

"The scientists think it must be produced in some way by the activity of the comet, as it releases neutral particles into space where they become electrically charged due to a process called ionisation. But the precise physical mechanism behind the oscillations remains a mystery,"

Thanks for the Cnet link, they have really amazing coverage that I missed.

[NFUN]

What is the 'heh' about Greg?

Don't tell me you think that article had something to do with the electric Universe. That is off-topic and shouldn't be posted. Just looking out for you

[GregA]

What is the 'heh' about Greg?

Don't tell me you think that article had something to do with the electric Universe. That is off-topic and shouldn't be posted. Just looking out for you

Just a fascinating result.

I found the sound file if you are interested. It wasn't on the cnet link.

https://soundcloud.com/esaops/a-singing-comet

I really have no idea what to make of it.

“This is exciting because it is completely new to us. We did not expect this and we are still working to understand the physics of what is happening.â€Â

Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/1608693/rosetta-mission-records-sounds-of-67p-comet-and-it-sounds-like-the-predator/#FJUxApltRfhHmVpG.99

ESA scientists are stumped as well. Always good for science.

Edited November 18, 2014 by GregA

[Camacha]

Don't tell me you think that article had something to do with the electric Universe. That is off-topic and shouldn't be posted. Just looking out for you

You are the only one talking about something that has been specifically banned from this thread. Please don't, even if you are colouring the text white.

[AgentMOO]

Just a fascinating result.

I found the sound file if you are interested. It wasn't on the cnet link.

https://soundcloud.com/esaops/a-singing-comet

I really have no idea what to make of it.

“This is exciting because it is completely new to us. We did not expect this and we are still working to understand the physics of what is happening.â€Â

Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/1608693/rosetta-mission-records-sounds-of-67p-comet-and-it-sounds-like-the-predator/#FJUxApltRfhHmVpG.99

ESA scientists are stumped as well. Always good for science.

I heard that a couple days ago too. Cool stuff.

Jupiter's sounds

[Aningaaq]

I've been reading a few research papers about CONSERT and I have some information to share for those who care for it...

CONSERT will measure subsurface features and geology by measuring the propagation of radio waves through the comet (look up GPR on wikipedia to understand this more). This allow provide insight on a few things. Firstly, the scientists will discover the mean permittivity of the comet nucleus (air has a dielectric constant of 1 in a perfect vacuum and I believe water is near 80 - correct me if I am wrong). We should learn some interesting things about the make up of the comet through this tomography. Additionally, they will discover the mean absorption of the nucleus and identify the refractory material make up of the comet. Should be interesting compare with the results from the drilling sample. Subsurface irregularities or "anomalies" may appear in radargrams or by examining changes in velocity of the radio waves. CONSERT will also help understand the extent of homogeneity in the geology of the comet.

Here is a sample of a radargram from my research here on Earth. The scale of CONSERT's radargrams will be much larger due to the nature of the survey but I thought some of you may like to see an example of a processed slice of data:

Subsurface features sometimes create hyperbolas (depending on their shape and permittivity). In my image, it was a large tree root (high water content and roundish in shape).

I'm not an expert on geophysics so feel free to correct me on anything. Aun aprendo, I'm still learning. I am just very excited to see this method of research being used in so many fields. I use it to study prehistory humans and Rosetta made it happen millions of kilometers away from Earth. I'm very eager to hear about these results. Someone said they were released some information about data collected on the last day. Any word?

[Camacha]

Any word on the relevance of the orientation?

[Aningaaq]

Any word on the relevance of the orientation?

I'm going to ask Emily Lakdawalla, a planetary geologist, about it tomorrow. I will post back asap.

[rkman]

We'll do the impossible just to get there, and then go home, because we lost the keys.

After having achieved 90% of the primary mission, and with still a chance of doing more science. We don't even have o know exactly where it is in order to make contact with it. We're not going home.

But you are not the only one on the Internet who's apparently eager to make this out to be a failure.

[Geneborg]

And I'm well aware that they are doing all they can with what they have. But therein lies the irony. They've planned out this impossible 10 year mission, managed to pull it off with just a few close calls, and then they lose the probe. Because nobody, during the entire design of this voyage, has thought that they might want to search for the probe on the comet. The fact that it might bounce off and roll away relatively unharmed just flat out did not occur to anyone. Else, CONSERT would have been dual-purposed for it from the get go.

Have to comment to this because it doesn't reflect reality:

1. they didn't lose it, they had communication and got all the data = not lost.

2. they didn't design for CONCERT/OSIRIS to find the lander in the dark because...ITS NOT NEEDED...let me emphasize this. Nothing is gained by it, absolutely nothing, its just for ppl like you who absolutely want a picture.

3. you don't just dual purpose ANY instrument for fun. every change in requirements changes the payload which effects the whole mission. There are stringent design requirements here. See point 2 why its was not needed anyways, so no, no dual purpose.

As long as we can't launch as much payload as we want to space every mission will do a risk/gain analysis of features of the mission and implement only the most important ones. Even if Philae would have MISSED the comet the mission in itself would still have been a success, but we all know that thats not how humans work, right? We focus an failures, not on success, so we transform a 90% success rate (measurements of instruments) in failure because we don't have a picture.

[Camacha]

Don't forget that adding complexity, even if you can do it without adding weight, is generally frowned upon when it comes to space flight. So if you do not really need a function, you are most likely not going to want to add it to the craft.

We focus an failures, not on success, so we transform a 90% success rate (measurements of instruments) in failure because we don't have a picture.

We all know the Apollo 11 landing was a total disaster. I mean, they almost ran out of fuel, landed in the wrong place. A total embarrassment

[TMS]

We all know the Apollo 11 landing was a total disaster. I mean, they almost ran out of fuel, landed in the wrong place. A total embarrassment

Flag fell over as well.

FAIL.

[Geneborg]

We all know the Apollo 11 landing was a total disaster. I mean, they almost ran out of fuel, landed in the wrong place. A total embarrassment

Well we only had to wait for Apollo 13 to get all excited about space again after Apollo 12 was sooo boring

[Aethon]

What a difference a decade can make.

http://www.universetoday.com/116387/no-rubber-duckie-rosettas-comet-looks-weird-in-decade-old-hubble-model/

[Aethon]

The one question was whether the drill had actually collected anything for the spectroscopic analysis. Has anyone got an update on that?

Best,

-Slashy

Preliminary science results including MUPUS and SD2.

http://www.universetoday.com/116423/philae-lander-early-science-results-ice-organic-molecules-and-half-a-foot-of-dust/

"Stephan Ulamec, Philae Lander manager, is confident that we’ll resume contact with Philae next spring when the Sun’s angle in the comet’s sky will have shifted to better illuminate the lander’s solar panels. The team managed to rotate the lander during the night of November 14-15, so that the largest solar panel is now aligned towards the Sun."

Edited November 18, 2014 by Aethon

[Tommygun]

Does anyone know if the APXS instrument was able to get any useful science back?

[Camacha]

What a difference a decade can make.

Who says the thing did not actually look like that back then? It seems unlikely, but we don't know what happened.