Using a Kethane condenser for a permanent hoverbase below Jool's surface

[VR_Dev]

So I'm pretty obsessed with Jool. It has no surface which makes it impossible to hang out there, which makes me really want to do it. I want to build a floating base on or below the surface a la the cloud city in Star Wars. Obviously it has to be much smaller, but several of them connected would be pretty cool. And ultimately I'd like to fly a kethane powered VTOL out there to land on a flight deck.

Here is a proof of concept that you can hover below the surface. And the original request thread I made

I went much lower than that as well, and as you can see, it requires very little thrust. Here is an alpha build of a base. I know it's a big ol ship to get out to Jool but it doesn't matter where I land so I just have to hit the thing. The atmosphere and some chutes will slow it down. I figure I just get the base into orbit around Kerbin, then blast up a ship with some nuclear engines and a bunch of fuel to fly it out to Jool.

The ramAirIntakes all suck up KIntakeAir. Now my plan was to use the converters to "condense" Jool's thick atmosphere into kethane to maintain permanent flight. And I changed the .cfg to look like this. However it doesn't work. My guess is KIntakeAIr probably isn't defined in the plugin, or for some reason it just simply wont let me output kethane.

PART{
// --- general parameters ---
name = kIntake_2m_condenser
module = Part
author = Keptin

// --- asset parameters ---
mesh = model.mu
rescaleFactor = 1.15

node_stack_top = 0.0, .308, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 2
node_stack_bottom = 0.0, -.310, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 2

cost = 3500
category = Utility
subcategory = 0
title = KE-C190 Heavy Condenser
manufacturer = Organization of Kethane Equipment Producers
description = The KE-C190 features deployable heat sinks to aid in keeping the unit cool during operation. When it's not overheating, this heavy unit can rapidly and efficiently process Kethane into other fuels.

TechRequired = veryHeavyRocketry
entryCost = 50

attachRules = 1,1,1,1,0

mass = 2
dragModelType = default
maximum_drag = 0.2
minimum_drag = 0.3
angularDrag = 2
crashTolerance = 6
breakingForce = 200
breakingTorque = 200
maxTemp = 5200
fuelCrossFeed = True

MODULE
{
    name = HeatSinkAnimator
    HeatAnimation = M2_converter_EmissiveAnimation
    OpenAnimation = M2_converter_converting
    OpenTemperature = 300
    MaxTemperature = 3600
    InternalDissipation = 0.04
    HeatSinkDissipation = 0.28
    PressureDissipation = 0.14
    AirSpeedDissipation = 0.007
    RadiatorNormal = 0, 0, 1
}

MODULE
{
    name = KethaneConverter
    HeatProduction = 600
    InputRates
    {
        KIntakeAir = 1.75
        ElectricCharge = 12
    }
    OutputRatios
    {
        Kethane = 1.03
    }
}
}

Now I don't want this condenser to work anywhere else but on the very surface of jool where the atmosphere is so thick. So somehow I'm going to have to make it just barely work on the surface so that it's too inefficient to work on any other planet. I don't want people to be able to just pop into a planet's upper atmosphere, refuel, and be on their way.

My new plan is to try and suck kethane straight out of the atmosphere from a part then say it just automatically condenses the KintakeAir into kethane. The part will use a bunch of electricity and produce heat as well to make it seem like its doing that. I'll probably just use the ramAirIntakes like I've been doing but maybe one day make a custom part.

Another, much harder idea, is to have a refuel vessel that flies out to a moon, drills for kethane, then delivers it back to the base.

So what does anyone think. Sound like a cool idea? Or does it sound impossible? My biggest concern is you wont be able to jump back to the space center, so technically it wont ever be permanent. I've heard of ways I think maybe to leave ships in the atmosphere, but I'll have to look into it

Edited May 12, 2014 by clown_baby

[Azimech]

I love it!

Flashback to 1994, when Elite 2: Frontier was introduced. I played years of my life with the first space sim using newtonian flight and proper celestial mechanics. I've traveled thousands of lightyears to the edge of the galaxy, using hydrogen capturing flying through the upper layers of the gas giants.

You absolutely have my blessing in this!

[VR_Dev]

Well I'm glad you dig it. I'm super busy with this, so if you wanna help build after I get the condensers working I'd appreciate it.

[skykooler]

You might want to look into how Hooligan Labs allows saving airships that are in the air.

[VR_Dev]

Awesome, thanks a lot. I knew there would be a way to leave it there. I've flown two planes at the same time before and you can fly them at the same time until they travel too far apart, then one disappears. I'd like to be able to leave the base on the surface then fly a ship out to land on some kind of landing deck it has.

[Camaron]

Seems to me that as soon as you leave that craft, it's going to re-simulate the craft as not moving over the surface of Jool and just eliminate it, same as if you leave any other craft on a collision course with a planet.

[VR_Dev]

yeah I don't know. I have to look into that mod that was mentioned. I figured out how to produce kethane from the air, so I could get it to fly indefinitely. How to leave it there is now the main problem.

What are the chances of getting two of these into orbit, connected to form one giant flight deck, then flown out to jool? Slim to none probably huh? And I don't like how un-realastic the deck is to try and get into space. I'm thinking about having it fold up somehow til it gets to orbit.

[SSSPutnik]

Where do you get Kethane from? I didn't know there was Kethane on Jool ? Or are you hacking it in?

[VR_Dev]

Well yeah I'm hacking it in. But Jool is a giant gas planet. And since kethane is found on every body in the solar system chances are it would be located on Jool too. So I'm saying maybe there's kethane in a gas form that could be extracted and "condensed" into a liquid. And since Jool's atmosphere is so thick, there would probably be a fair amount per every square meter.

Now my ramAirIntakes just suck up kethane. Using the converters on KintakeAir doesn't seem to work, so now I'm gonna say the intakes suck up KintakeAir(which they don't) and automatically condense it into a liquid form of kethane. The ramAirIntakes now use electricity and produce heat in the condensing process. I will have to tweak all the values and what not, but I've gotten it to work on Kerbin already.

Somehow I'd like to make them only operate if the atmospheric pressure is over a certain amount, so that it only works on or below the surface of jool

Edited May 13, 2014 by clown_baby

[VR_Dev]

It's not looking good for the saving in atmosphere however.... I wonder if I could trick the game into letting me jump to the space center if I actually got the thing to come to a complete stop at one point in the air. Which is probably impossible

Edited May 13, 2014 by clown_baby

[VR_Dev]

I've been trying to land an f-35 on it, but its not easy

[The Destroyer]

I remember people did this with the hooligan labs airships.

[Darren9]

I don't think you'll do it with a throttle controlled part. The airships didn't use the throttle last time I looked, maybe a Kethane jet model with Hooligans lift code/modules that consumes an amount of kethane?

[Genius Evil]

You could install the hooligan labs airship mod, and create a ridiculously OP envelope -- maybe using the same model as the radial parachute -- and put a few on the base. You could only activate it when you're ready to save.

[VR_Dev]

All interesting ideas. Thanks a lot. Personally I just think this looks cooler than a big hot air balloon base, and this has yet to be done.

[Northstar1989]

You might want to look into how Hooligan Labs allows saving airships that are in the air.

Does it let you unload airships while in the air? (you can quicksave any vehicle in the air as of 0.23.5) I thought it didn't- hence the need to anchor the things with a KAS anchor...

@OP

It might actually look cooler if you went with a floating platform design... Either B9 Aerospace, or Novapunch2, I forget which, gives you these big lightweight platforms that are MUCH lighter and much larger than the stock structural panels. See the platforms in the following- that's only 3 parts, and they're not even the largest size:

You could also easily achieve a permanently floating base with KSP-Interstellar and a Microwave Beamed Power transmitter and relay network to beam solar farm energy to run a number of thermal turbojets rotated to face upwards- or more efficiently (at lower altitudes) and easier to control, a series of Firespitter electric plane or helicopter rotors facing upwards (you could also power the rotors with lightweight structural platforms coated in OX-STAT panels and enough of the 400-EC stock batteries, as both are massless in the current version...) which could also be placed on "Hover" mode to hover at any desired altitude...

Generally, like real rotors, the Firespitter rotors produce more thrust the thicker the atmosphere- so the lower the altitude you choose to hover your base at, the fewer of them you'll need. Their thrust falls off the faster they are moving though, so you might need some parachutes or rockets to slow down your descent to a standstill if you choose something higher up in Jool's atmosphere... Note that rotor power consumption increases with thrust- so you'll also need more power for the same number of rotors at full throttle deeper in Jool's atmosphere... (don't forget to use "Cargo Throttle" to get the most thrust for each rotor!)

Enclose the rotors or turbojets in structural panel "casings" to create enclosed turbines- like with the floating aircraft carrier in The Avengers, for something really cool...

Regards,

Northstar

P.S. Technically you can establish a floating base on any planet/moon with an atmosphere this way- including Kerbin, Duna, Laythe, or Eve. It's easiest using rotors on planets with thicker atmospheres though, so Jool or Eve work especially well for those; but turbojets work relatively better in thinner atmosphere- so are the better option for Kerbin, Laythe, or Duna...

P.P.S. It's also possible to create floating "fuel refineries" on Jool using this approach, similar to the floating Tibanna Gas refineries on Bespin- which were its primary source of income aside from Lando's floating resort-casino. With KSP-Interstellar Atmospheric Scoops, you can refine Jool's atmosphere (which is largely made of Hydrogen) into pure Liquidfuel- which can be used to power KSP Interstellar thermal rockets (basically the mod's more realistic version of NERVA or BNTR- which can also work of Microwave Beamed Power and a thermal receiver as the heat source, instead of a nuclear reactor), or jet planes to fly around on Laythe!

Edited June 5, 2014 by Northstar1989

[Starwaster]

Sorry for nitpicking, but about Jool not having a surface. It actually does and you can even land on it and walk around. Not very realistic, it SHOULDN'T have a surface but it does.

[Dawa1147]

Can't help with modding, but i think i can help with the whole "hovering base" design: basically my design is a ring around the core (if Jool's core is small enough, never been at the core), so basically with it being pulled to the center, but the structure Holding it as a ring. Since the forces nullify eachother, it should (in theory, if the ring is strong enough) only require carefull Placement, and you will never need to use fuel (to Keep you off of ist core) again.

(Sry for bad english, my german PC tries to auto-correct them to german, even though i have auto-correct disabled.)

[VR_Dev]

Can't help with modding, but i think i can help with the whole "hovering base" design: basically my design is a ring around the core (if Jool's core is small enough, never been at the core), so basically with it being pulled to the center, but the structure Holding it as a ring. Since the forces nullify eachother, it should (in theory, if the ring is strong enough) only require carefull Placement, and you will never need to use fuel (to Keep you off of ist core) again.

(Sry for bad english, my german PC tries to auto-correct them to german, even though i have auto-correct disabled.)

jesus. That sounds nuts dude. And you've made this work? Do you have any pictures? I'd really like to see what your talking about.

As for this project, I kind of gave up to go back to my zoid and gundam. Until I find a way to jump back to the space center with a ship in atmosphere this project wont work. I still have the kintake burning engines if anyone is interested

[Ravenchant]

Sounds like he's talking about a "Dyson ring" - sorry, but that isn't possible because the ring's centre of mass would be extremely close to Jool's COM, which would result in all sorts of wonky forces and so on... assuming, of course, that you managed to extend physics range from 2.5 km to 6000

@OP: you could recreate the station from Solaris! just let it hover over the ocean of Eve instead of Jool