LethalDose Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 I installed FAR a few months ago, and after learning how to fly again, it's a lot of fun. I just have one one major problem: Landing. It seems to matter what I try, I can't slow down enough to land in a controlled manner. Under the stock game, I could usually slow down to around 100m/s and land, but with FAR, I can't get below 250 m/s, which is way too fast for me to land. At these high speeds, I have a lot of trouble lining up the runway and always end up crashing, usually into the mound the runway is built on.Are there any ways to slow down in-flight? I have my engines off for these approaches and I'm just gliding in, so I don't have thrust keeping my speed up. I try flaring when I'm landing, but I just climb and overshoot the runway. I feel like the solution is more drag, but I can't think of how do that outside of installing chutes on all my aircraft, or installing B9 (I've been trying to wait until the new update is released).So... help? I'd really like to enjoy the planes in this game, but this is seriously getting in the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taki117 Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Instead of flaring right as you are about to land, try flaring sooner. Also you could flare more sooner, by pitching down and then pulling up before you reach the runway that will also slow you down. Something else to try is to get your speed down as much as possible and then watch your VERTICAL speed (I suggest using KER or MechJeb for this) and keep it below about 10m/s. This way all you have to do once you hit the runway is slow your HORIZONTAL speed, accomplished by rapidly turning the brakes on and off. (Of if you want to use RealChute it has a parachute built for that particular purpose) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LethalDose Posted May 18, 2014 Author Share Posted May 18, 2014 (edited) Instead of flaring right as you are about to land, try flaring sooner. Also you could flare more sooner, by pitching down and then pulling up before you reach the runway that will also slow you down. Something else to try is to get your speed down as much as possible and then watch your VERTICAL speed (I suggest using KER or MechJeb for this) and keep it below about 10m/s. This way all you have to do once you hit the runway is slow your HORIZONTAL speed, accomplished by rapidly turning the brakes on and off. (Of if you want to use RealChute it has a parachute built for that particular purpose)From what I understand, if you're not flaring immediately prior to landing, it's not really flaring. Beyond terminology, I've actually tried that, and again, I end up climbing so much from the change in AoA that to get back down the ground, I pick up almost all the speed I lost. I just put together a quick little plane for specific numbers: On an approach to the strip at ~ 700 m alt going 280-300 m/s, I "flared" at 20 degrees 13 km out from runway. I climbed to over 2.8 km with a speed of ~ 30 m/s at the top of the climb and completely overshot the airstrip.I'm trying to "get my speed down as far as possible", but I don't know how. Also, planes don't land based on "vertical speed". Landing plane at even a vertical velocity of 5 m/s is suicide. I'm not trying to be difficult, but these recommendations don't really seem to help. Are these methods you use to land planes in KSP?And I'm not going anywhere near RealChute. Edited May 18, 2014 by LethalDose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taki117 Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 From what I understand, if you're not flaring immediately prior to landing, it's not really flaring. Beyond terminology, I've actually tried that, and again, I end up climbing so much from the change in AoA that to get back down the ground, I pick up almost all the speed I lost. I just put together a quick little plane for specific numbers: On an approach to the strip at ~ 700 m alt going 280-300 m/s, I "flared" at 20 degrees 13 km out from runway. I climbed to over 2.8 km with a speed of ~ 30 m/s at the top of the climb and completely overshot the airstrip.I'm trying to "get my speed down as far as possible", but I don't know how. Also, planes don't land based on "vertical speed". Landing plane at even a vertical velocity of 5 m/s is suicide. I'm not trying to be difficult, but these recommendations don't really seem to help. Are these methods you use to land planes in KSP?And I'm not going anywhere near RealChute.I routinely land well over 100m/s (usually about 150-175m/s) and any particular reason you won't touch realchute? I think a pic of your craft might help because it sounds like you might have too much lift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix_ca Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Sounds like you need flaps and spoilers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LethalDose Posted May 18, 2014 Author Share Posted May 18, 2014 Sounds like you need flaps and spoilers.So, it's my understanding that, at least IRL, flaps increase lift at low speeds, they don't necessarily decrease speed (that'd be air brakes?). Spoilers are what? I know what they are in cars, but not on planes. Also flaps certainly aren't in stock, and I'm guessing spoilers aren't either.I routinely land well over 100m/s (usually about 150-175m/s) and any particular reason you won't touch realchute? I think a pic of your craft might help because it sounds like you might have too much lift.The craft I used to get those numbers is here. I've had the exact same problems with larger planes and SSTOs.It sounds like one person is saying more lift (with flaps) and one person is saying less lift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix_ca Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 (edited) Flaps and spoilers are control surface options for FAR, lest I'm confused.Flaps increase lift and also increase drag. Spoilers decrease lift while also increasing drag. With effective spoilers, you would be able to flare the plane less while still falling.There is some discussion about the use of flaps and spoilers with FAR here. Edited May 18, 2014 by phoenix_ca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxette Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Landing a jet 101... vary the attitude (pitch) to control the speed, and the power to control the rate of descent (the opposite of a light propeller-driven airplane) and use flaps reduce the stall speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LethalDose Posted May 18, 2014 Author Share Posted May 18, 2014 Flaps and spoilers are control surface options for FAR, lest I'm confused.Flaps increase lift and also increase drag. Spoilers decrease lift while also increasing drag. With effective spoilers, you would be able to flare the plane less while still falling.There is some discussion about the use of flaps and spoilers with FAR here.How do you access those control surface options in FAR? In the SPH, I get FAR's usual stability readouts, but no options for control surfaces and I don't see any new tweakable options. I thought FAR simply changed the physics model, and I didn't really add any new parts or part options.The post you linked shows stuff that looks like B9, where I thought flaps/spoilers were included as parts.I think I'm close to solving the problem, though. I think my glide path on approach was too steep and I wasn't spending enough time near sea level to allow drag to sufficiently slow me down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix_ca Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Maybe it's a B9 thing and I'm not remembering correctly. But flaps and spoilers aren't part of B9 so much as the control surfaces are tweakable to use the surfaces for pitch/yaw/roll, as flaps, and/or as spoilers. Pretty sure that's FAR.As for the glideslope, I'd suggest MechJeb. Not for the landing autopilot, but for the very handy glideslope indicator it has. Set that to 3º and you have a great guide for getting your plane to KSC's runway...just mind the mountains to the far west. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LethalDose Posted May 18, 2014 Author Share Posted May 18, 2014 Landing a jet 101... vary the attitude (pitch) to control the speed, and the power to control the rate of descent (the opposite of a light propeller-driven airplane) and use flaps reduce the stall speed.Did you read where I stated above that pitching up to slow down causes too much lift and I overshot the runway? This isn't useful advice if you aren't going to explain it beyond what I already said I'm doing.Maybe it's a B9 thing and I'm not remembering correctly. But flaps and spoilers aren't part of B9 so much as the control surfaces are tweakable to use the surfaces for pitch/yaw/roll, as flaps, and/or as spoilers. Pretty sure that's FAR.As for the glideslope, I'd suggest MechJeb. Not for the landing autopilot, but for the very handy glideslope indicator it has. Set that to 3º and you have a great guide for getting your plane to KSC's runway...just mind the mountains to the far west.Like I said, I have FAR (v0.13) loaded. I can tweak control surfaces to only be active in different axes (pitch/yaw/roll) because that's stock KSP as of 0.23.If that's what you're talking about, how do I the pitch/roll/yaw options make stock surfaces spoilers/flaps?If that's not what you're talking about, tell me where to click to make them spoilers/flaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix_ca Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 I'd have to reboot my computer to check, but there should be an tweakable to use a control surface as a flap or spoiler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taki117 Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 I'd have to reboot my computer to check, but there should be an tweakable to use a control surface as a flap or spoiler.There is, you have to right click the part and set as either flap or spoiler, also you need to bind the increase/decrease flap to action groups (Not the same one obviously) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LethalDose Posted May 19, 2014 Author Share Posted May 19, 2014 I'd have to reboot my computer to check, but there should be an tweakable to use a control surface as a flap or spoiler.There is, you have to right click the part and set as either flap or spoiler, also you need to bind the increase/decrease flap to action groups (Not the same one obviously)Alright, I updated FAR to 0.13.3 and I have the flap/spoiler tweakable options now. I don't know why 0.13 didn't have them, since there's a note in the changelog that mentions flaps from an older version (0.12 I think).Anyway, thanks for your time, guys. I'll give these a shot and see if these options will make landing something other than futile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NathanKell Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 A note, per the other thread on flaps and spoilers: they don't work well at all on delta or canard-delta craft. Your best bet on that sort of layout would be mid-wing (near CoM and AC) spoilers, and flying high-AoA to mimic flap effects.What is your actual stall speed? The obvious suggestion IMO is: if you're coming in too fast, go around and make another landing attempt when you've slowed down more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoark Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 Start your approach further out, throttle down lower, and do some S curves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irbisgreif Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Landing a jet 101... vary the attitude (pitch) to control the speed, and the power to control the rate of descent (the opposite of a light propeller-driven airplane) and use flaps reduce the stall speed.That's how they taught me in the little light prop planes too. It takes quite a bit of finesse to get used to it, though - and that's in aeroplanes designed by professional aeronautical engineers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alshain Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 That's how they taught me in the little light prop planes too. It takes quite a bit of finesse to get used to it, though - and that's in aeroplanes designed by professional aeronautical engineers. This thread is 9 months old. I'm almost positive LethalDose is an expert at flying planes in KSP with FAR by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sal_vager Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 This is pretty old and I'm also sure LD's piloting has moved on since this was posted, I think I should put this thread back to sleep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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