Most realistic way to *MOD* Kerbin to mimic Earth?

[Northstar1989]

RO supports a *ton* of mod parts; that the 0.5m/1m/etc refers to *node* sizes, not part sizes (the Saturn V 5-engine part is in fact 10m in diameter); that far from not supporting them, Realism Overhaul requires StretchyTanks or Procedural Parts so you can have propellant tanks exactly the size you wish; and so forth.

I can't say I understood every relation between RO and the mods it requires, despite having reading the OP. That's exactly why I started this thread- to pick up on as many details relating to modding for greater realism as possible. I want to educate myself before I give anything a try- especially since to make room for realism mods, I might have to uninstall some other mods...

I have no intention of playing with RO, though, after reading it requires "Advanced Jet Engine" (which inaccurately nerfs jet engine ISP), and several other mods I'm not comfortable with implementing just yet, or don't have the memory for on my laptop... It's quite a laundry-list of mods it requires: have you ever considered cutting it a bit shorter?

Further, you would have found that rather than using some simplistic scaling algorithm, RO gives solar panels exactly the W/M^2 they should have (based on a judgment about their technology level), that the RealEngines version of engine configs gives engines real performance (looks like an F-1? Has the stats of an F-1), that RO scales the Mk1 pod into the Mercury it resembles, down to its mass, battery capacity (and use rate in watts), etc., and so forth.

I'm not so sure about things when I hear phrases like "based on a judgment about their technology level" being applied to solar panels...

That's subject to a LOT of judgment on the mod author's part, and in my experience, people tend to rather underestimate solar panels potential in real life... There are all sorts of breakthrough technologies coming out in the solar industry- and I prefer to think (and play) with the Kerbals as being a little ahead of our current technological era in some ways, rather than trapped with 1970's technology...

It also creates problems in that you need to keep electricity production and demands in their proper balance, and if you nerf solar panels without decreasing the demand of unrealistically power-hungry parts (which will be basically anything designed to balance against stock solar panels), you'll just end up making them weaker than in real-life from a usefulness perspective...

Regards,

Northstar

[Northstar1989]

I played with Realism Overhaul, RSS Real Earth system, AJE jets, FAR, DRE, Engine restarter/ignitor, and a whole slew of other mods including real fuels, and such. Most of the mods I used and still use are in my sig.

I'm glad you've given a lot of mods a try. I'm always open to hearing a mod-by-mod breakdown of which mods you liked, which ones you didn't, which you felt were most realistic, and why (the last one especially- many players hungering for realism actually end up making their games harder than real-life, or in forcing players to exactly re-create real-world patterns that could have happened differently/better. I've discovered this on many occasions, going back to the "realism" mods for Civilization IV and the original Rome Total War...)

You can go to 95% real or to 60% real or less if you are so inclined.

I'm aiming for the highest % possible, so long as it doesn't lag my game any worse than it already is, or interfere with my other mods (two big demands in themselves). I also refuse to install any "realism" mod as a matter of principle that I feel in some way makes things harder than they actually are in real life (this can be *proved* with the Advanced Jet Engines mod's nerfs to jet engine ISP, for instance), or forces players to re-create real-world patterns that could have happened differently (as with certain tech tree re-do mods...)

There is no reason to come off as a pretentious prick.

I'm sorry. I am simply OVERFLOWING with that of lately. It has to do with not getting the respect I deserve in real-life (where I'm a *very* nice person), and so venting much of that anger and frustration on the internet. Of course, such is also the story of every Internet Troll...

If you want full hardcore as close to 100% as you can so you can prove to yourself that you are not a complete useless waist of carbon, then so be it, don't let your self doubt and loathing rain down on others.

Ahh, but it's FUN to rain self-doubt and loathing down on others!

Seriously, though, half of this is just my penchant for academic debate and discussion. The other half is a (un)healthy dose of anger and frustration, from my experiences in real-life (particularly, trying to find my own success with women...)

And most importantly, have fun.

Always good advice.

Regards,

Northstar

P.S. You may notice that, for all my irritation and cynicism, I end every post with "Regards". That is intentional. It is indeed meant as a signal of respect and goodwill towards the reader- whatever they may think of everything else I have to say.

[Hodo]

I'm aiming for the highest % possible, so long as it doesn't lag my game any worse than it already is, or interfere with my other mods (two big demands in themselves). I also refuse to install any "realism" mod as a matter of principle that I feel in some way makes things harder than they actually are in real life (this can be *proved* with the Advanced Jet Engines mod's nerfs to jet engine ISP, for instance), or forces players to re-create real-world patterns that could have happened differently (as with certain tech tree re-do mods...)

The thing is not all the RO mods make things harder than in real life. In real life it is amazingly hard to get an object of any substantial size into orbit. Using jet engines and having an overload of intakes on the aircraft and just going mach 7 isn't going to do it in the real world. Jets are over powered in KSP, they don't have to worry about compressor overheats, or overspeeds. In KSP a Turbojet engine creates 220kn of thrust and will push an aircraft well passed the mach 6 line. In the real world a "turbojet" engine will generally reach its maximum potential around mach 4, because the air flow speed.

The engine ignitor mod, does something that real rockets have to worry about, engine restarts. Not all rockets can be restarted after they have left the launch pad. Even a jet engine in real life is difficult to restart once it is in flight.

Both of the major life support mods, TAC, and ECLSS are outstanding mods to add, I am currently using ECLSS, but that is because I like the persistent resource use even when not focused.

But if you want to give as close as you can get to real life space program, then I highly suggest the Realism Overhaul. Even though it is a ridiculous number of mods, it is the most realistic simulation of an actual space program you are going to get in KSP.

[NathanKell]

Realism Overhaul is very much a work in progress. That's why the support is partial. However, it certainly supports enough mods that you will go over the RAM limit if you install them all, so...

Also, I believe we've all addressed your points on the AJE thread (and you've noticed you've been using exhaust velocity rather than specific impulse in seconds).

Ballistic Coefficient is...kinda sorta proportional to length and density I guess, but really it's just mass divided by frontal area (well, Cd which is frontal area plus the rest of the wetted surface area). That is, it's expressed in mass per square-of-length, i.e. kg/m^2.

I'm not sure why you think plugin-only mods use much RAM; they don't. Mostly, what uses memory is part packs, and RO doesn't require part packs, it just supports them. The list of actually required mods for RO is quite short, and does not use a ton of memory.

Regarding solar panels, you're welcome to give them whatever W/m^2 you like. If you want near-future superAWESOME solar panels, fine, up the charge rate. KSP is very tweakable. Heck, release a tweak pack.

As for usage, of course you have to scale usage to match generation. RO does this. 1 EC = 1MJ, 1 EC/sec = 1kW. We've set antenna, pod/probe, etc. usage rates best on the best research we could do.

Once again, this would be solved if you actually tried any of this stuff rather than assuming we're idiots and miss major, obvious problems.

Also, I'm sorry that you feel slighted in real life, but if you act like a jerk online people will take you for one, all protestations to the contrary.

Edited May 21, 2014 by NathanKell

[Northstar1989]

The thing is not all the RO mods make things harder than in real life.

If a mod decreases the performance of an engine or a wing or a plane or whatnot to WORSE than real-life performance, then it's made things harder. Advanced Jet Engines mod, for instance, does precisely that- by nerfing the jet engines down to Apollo-era tech, even though we're currently living in the 21st century... (and cutting-edge jet engines are MUCH more advanced than they were back then, though most of the newer tech is still classified...)

In real life it is amazingly hard to get an object of any substantial size into orbit.

Agreed- but if you nerf jet or rocket engines down to the Apollo-era, you're going to make it a LOT harder than it is today...

Using jet engines and having an overload of intakes on the aircraft and just going mach 7 isn't going to do it in the real world.

Only because we live on a planet where orbital velocity is Mach 25. If we lived on a planet the size of Kerbin, that by some miracle also had Earth-gravity, then orbital velocity would only be Mach 6.3, and it would be easy enough to do *precisely* that...

Jets are over powered in KSP, they don't have to worry about compressor overheats, or overspeeds.

There are plenty of mods that already handle that in some way- including Deadly Re-Entry and KSP-Interstellar. The latter of which, I must point out, includes intake pre-cooler technology to compensate for and overcome these limitations- technology which exists in real life, but hasn't made any appaearance in Advanced Jet Engines mod...

In KSP a Turbojet engine creates 220kn of thrust and will push an aircraft well passed the mach 6 line. In the real world a "turbojet" engine will generally reach its maximum potential around mach 4, because the air flow speed.

The main reason a turbojet/turbofan engine (it's really not clear which it actually is- it's called a "turbojet", but internals label it a "turbofan") in KSP performs as well as it does is because of its very OP'd TWR. The velocity curve, while a bit dodgy, is not so insane as to allow such performance with realistic TWR ratings...

The engine ignitor mod, does something that real rockets have to worry about, engine restarts. Not all rockets can be restarted after they have left the launch pad. Even a jet engine in real life is difficult to restart once it is in flight.

Once again, how much of this do you actually know first-hand? How much of this are you basing off assumptions from Apollo-era technology? I suppose that we've probably worked out quite a few engineering solutions to something as simple as engine re-ignition in the past 40 years...

Both of the major life support mods, TAC, and ECLSS are outstanding mods to add, I am currently using ECLSS, but that is because I like the persistent resource use even when not focused.

And I play with NONE of the life support mods, because I don't currently consider them to be in a sufficient state of completion. Neither, for instance, has its own integrated greenhouse modules. Or even Sabatier Reactors- which are currently operating on the International Space Station (only installed in the past couple years) to recycle oxygen from exhaled CO2 back into O2 at 100% efficiency (at the expense of Hydrogen, which becomes tied up in Methane- itself a useful resource and potential rocket propellent...)

The realism is also skewed as well- once again due to modeling Apollo-era technology. Look at the dev blog and main thread for the Universal Storage thread. Modern O2 tanks can store literally hundreds of days of breathable oxygen in a VERY small volume simply by compressing or liquifying it... (CO2 recycling can extend this supply even further) Players actually objected that this would be "OP'd" if it were implemented realistically- not realizing how far technology has come since the Apollo era...

But if you want to give as close as you can get to real life space program, then I highly suggest the Realism Overhaul. Even though it is a ridiculous number of mods, it is the most realistic simulation of an actual space program you are going to get in KSP.

I won't touch a pack of mods requiring that much memory that actually makes things harder than in real life. Simple as that. I play KSP to simulate the future of space exploration, and show what can be done with near-future or underutilized technologies (such as In-Situ Resoruce Utilization, *realistic* NERVA engines using modern reactor technology instead of 1970's tech, or Project Orion from the 1960's...), rather than to recreate the not-so-glorious past... (speaking as a biologist, I may be biased- we didn't even have a tenth the biological knowledge back then that we do today...)

Regards,

Northstar

[Northstar1989]

Realism Overhaul is very much a work in progress. That's why the support is partial. However, it certainly supports enough mods that you will go over the RAM limit if you install them all, so...

But the support for none of those mods is complete. Some that I refuse to give up don't even have any support at all- such as KSP Interstellar...

Also, I believe we've all addressed your points on the AJE thread (and you've noticed you've been using exhaust velocity rather than specific impulse in seconds).

Actually, I was using Specific Impulse in meters/second, which is identical to exhaust velocity, and a common and mathematically valid alternative way to define specific impulse rather than in seconds...

Ballistic Coefficient is...kinda sorta proportional to length and density I guess, but really it's just mass divided by frontal area (well, Cd which is frontal area plus the rest of the wetted surface area). That is, it's expressed in mass per square-of-length, i.e. kg/m^2.

Yes, and for precisely that reason a 200 meter tall rocket with a 20 meter diameter has a much higher ballistic coefficient than a 128 meter tall rocket with a 12.8 meter diameter (a 65% scale version of the original). This is precisely why playing with FAR and 1:10 Real Solar System, without a 100% scale mod (such as Realism Overhaul) is a bad idea.

Except, I won't play with Realism Overhaul, because it requires Advanced Jet Engines mod- which I absolutely REFUSE to play with as long as it nerfs jet engines back to a 1970's level of technology (I understand that stock engines perform something like 23rd century jet engines plausibly might, but AJE mod goes too far backwards in time...)

I'm not sure why you think plugin-only mods use much RAM; they don't. Mostly, what uses memory is part packs, and RO doesn't require part packs, it just supports them. The list of actually required mods for RO is quite short, and does not use a ton of memory.

Advanced Jet Engines mod is a parts mod- it includes ramjets of its own, for instance... (which I might actually appreciate- if it didn't nerf the stock engines back to the Apollo Era)

Engines are some of the worst parts to add from a memory perspective, as they have some of the most complex data tied to them, and often include their own unique animations that have to be loaded to memory... (although, the single worst part I've seen so far from a memory perspective is actually the "Solar Blanket" from NearFuture mod- which single-handedly increased my memory usage more than some entire parts packs the moment it was added to NearFuture in a recent update)

Regarding solar panels, you're welcome to give them whatever W/m^2 you like. If you want near-future superAWESOME solar panels, fine, up the charge rate. KSP is very tweakable. Heck, release a tweak pack.

I'm not talking science fiction. I'd just like solar panels that aren't nerfed back to the Apollo Era, most of all...

But, it would also be nice to see solar panels that recognized many of the breakthroughs on the horizon with solar panels, such as this one that would boost light absorption to to 96.21% from nearly any angle- making the need to turn panels to directly face the sun nearly obsolete:

http://news.rpi.edu/luwakkey/2507

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/science/11/06/solar.coating/index.html?iref=nextin

(I spent a year at RPI, before transferring to Cornell University- my little brother spent 3 years there, and both my parents are RPI alumni. So I'm very tied in to advances coming from there, and aren't afraid to plug it a little... RPI *should* be almost as famous as MIT.)

As for usage, of course you have to scale usage to match generation. RO does this. 1 EC = 1MJ, 1 EC/sec = 1kW. We've set antenna, pod/probe, etc. usage rates best on the best research we could do.

The problem is *WHICH* generation things are being scaled to match. I want to see technology scaled to match modern cutting-edge (and possibly unlockable technologies just around the corner- like nano-coatings for solar panels), NOT technology nerfed back to the Apollo Era...

Once again, this would be solved if you actually tried any of this stuff rather than assuming we're idiots and miss major, obvious problems.

I'm not assuming any of you are idiots, and don't mistake my confronting mod-makers about their creations' shortcomings as being a jerk. I *strongly* believe in constructive criticism, and know that we'd be nowhere without it...

I know that making good mods, especially realism mods, is HARD. I simply come with my own insights and my own opinions to the subject of "realism"- well aware that most realism mods over-do things because they aren't aware of what's actually possible with modern technology, or just how incredibly un-ambitious we've actually been in many of our government technology projects in the past 40 years...

We could have already established a sustainable moon colony, be driving electric cars everywhere, and be relying on 100% renewable energy by this point in history- if we wanted to... (ask me about "Project Better Place" some time if you're curious about the electric cars...)

Regards,

Northstar

Edited May 21, 2014 by Northstar1989

[Hodo]

You are aware that you don't have to use the 1960-70s tech rockets and engines. I used maybe 1/4 of the rocket engines that were available. And rarely used any of the old engines. Except when I was early in my career mode, when the calender starts at 1980 for me.

[MedievalNerd]

I can say this.

I played with Realism Overhaul, RSS Real Earth system, AJE jets, FAR, DRE, Engine restarter/ignitor, and a whole slew of other mods including real fuels, and such. Most of the mods I used and still use are in my sig. You can go to 95% real or to 60% real or less if you are so inclined. There is no reason to come off as a pretentious prick.

If you want full hardcore as close to 100% as you can so you can prove to yourself that you are not a complete useless waist of carbon, then so be it, don't let your self doubt and loathing rain down on others.

And most importantly, have fun.

No RPL in that list? So sad. D:

[Hodo]

No RPL in that list? So sad. D:

I did run RPL, I loved it. But when I dumped RO I dropped it as well unfortunately.

[MedievalNerd]

Advanced Jet Engines mod is a parts mod- it includes ramjets of its own, for instance... (which I might actually appreciate- if it didn't nerf the stock engines back to the Apollo Era)

I'm not talking science fiction. I'd just like solar panels that aren't nerfed back to the Apollo Era, most of all...

I'm not assuming any of you are idiots, and don't mistake my confronting mod-makers about their creations' shortcomings as being a jerk. I *strongly* believe in constructive criticism, and know that we'd be nowhere without it...

I know that making good mods, especially realism mods, is HARD. I simply come with my own insights and my own opinions to the subject of "realism"- well aware that most realism mods over-do things because they aren't aware of what's actually possible with modern technology, or just how incredibly un-ambitious we've actually been in many of our government technology projects in the past 40 years...

We could have already established a sustainable moon colony, be driving electric cars everywhere, and be relying on 100% renewable energy by this point in history- if we wanted to... (ask me about "Project Better Place" some time if you're curious about the electric cars...)

I'm a bit confused as to why you have such apprehensions about AJE if you are more interested in 'late tech' space exploration? Seems like jet engines would be irrelevant to what you want to be doing. I personally have no appeal to planes or jet engines simply because I'm personally interested in space exploration, not flying around kerbin in planes. D:

Also, although it's still in early alpha stages if you would use my tech tree (see my sig) then you could still have access to KSPI stuff, although in later tech nodes. I guess one could artificially give themselves a science point boost to reach the 'tech levels' they so desire.

So in any case, you don't need to get stuck on the tech eras RO goes through, or the mods it supports. If anything, since it's all tweakable, use it as a base, improve and share it with the community. Nathan has done a stellar job at spearheading RO/RSS, not to mention providing key support for countless other mods. So any outside help is always appreciated!

In terms of solar panels, go ahead and suggest better values than the ones offered. It's not quite obvious to get straight values for certain components. Often times articles or wikis on certain spacecraft will focus on the engines, or whatever component and sometimes leave out key details like. How much did the solar panels generate and exactly how big they were. What tech were they using, etc. If you did research which provides you with those values, again, do share! So it's not like we are using arbitrary values, just the best information that was available after doing research. (You seem to like to do that, so just need to figure out how to edit .cfg files. Which in case you didn't know is just plain text with very simple syntax.)

Enjoy what's available or get busy!