Y-Wing SSTO design problem (Aerodynamics)

[Pondafarr]

I'm attempting to create a Y-Wing style SSTO, but I'm having some design issues.

The overall shape is what I want, but the flight profile (NON-FAR) requires an AoA of at least 16 degrees to maintain level flight at 1000m.

You can see the lift vector has a jaunty forward angle. I can't for the life of me find a wing configuration that will reduce the AoA problem.

Has anyone developed a similar craft, and how did you overcome this issue? I've already poured over the invaluable aircraft design tutorial, didn't find a solution.

Mods used:

Spaceplanes+ (latest version)

B9 Aerospace

Goodspeed

NearFuture

Craft file as-is:https://www.dropbox.com/s/a5l3zkczshe295v/YWing.craft

Javascript is disabled. View full album

[The Error]

If you don't mind clipping, Putting some angled winglets inside the engine pylons and main fuselage might (with a 5-degree up-angle) give you enough lift to fly reasonably level.

Non-clipping, not sure.

[Pondafarr]

I'll try it, thanks!

As a side note, why do people hate on clipping?

[Hodo]

You need more controll surfaces.

[Epthelyn]

I'll try it, thanks!

As a side note, why do people hate on clipping?

Some people don't like it because any use of the debug menu is 'cheating'.

Sometimes someone saying it might just be as a precaution - using part clipping can cause weird Kraken-related side effects, although I personally have never encountered any that wouldn't otherwise have happened.

[Pondafarr]

The left and right engine pods each have four small control surfaces, two as rudder, two as elevator. I also have two delta wing tails as elevators. I'll prolly switch those to B9 wings and use the B9 control tabs.

The Spaceplane parts also have the Winglet module, so they provide lift as well.

[Overfloater]

You need to put an adequate amount of control surfaces behind and in front of your ship

A good technique for heavy ships is to have the controls angled, like on the bottom drawing:

As a side note, why do people hate on clipping?

No idea! I put stuff inside my fuel tanks all the time!!!

[problemecium]

It's an immersion thing, the way I see it. A bit of clipping can be rationalized as "they restructured the interior of the probe core to make room for a bit of RCS fuel", but putting wings inside fuel tanks is throwing realism out the window.

[Pondafarr]

Ahh..so trying to force reality on a fantasy world...got it...lol

Overfloater, thank you for that tip! thats next on my list of things to try.

I found that if I reconfigure to a 'standard" layout, it flies fine. I guess Y-wings aren't realistic??? who would have guessed??

[Pauly]

but putting wings inside fuel tanks is throwing realism out the window.

In real life do they not have fuel inside wings?

Maybe by using some clipping people are just trying to get back to some realism.

[Redshift OTF]

I usually make a "side rail" out of octagonal struts, add a bunch of small control surfaces to it, slide it about till the CoL is where I want it on the craft and then rotate the rail with the control surfaces 180 degrees so it is now inside the body of the craft. That way you can maintain aesthetics while having a craft that actually flies like you want it to.

[Redshift OTF]

It's an immersion thing, the way I see it. A bit of clipping can be rationalized as "they restructured the interior of the probe core to make room for a bit of RCS fuel", but putting wings inside fuel tanks is throwing realism out the window.

A good point but then the lift on some of those wing parts seems a bit low to me. You can make quite large wings on planes that look like they work but the total lift of the parts ends up being not that great. In reality lift isn't calculated this way so I think it is fine to clip wing parts into the plane to compensate for the limited way the game calculates lift IMO.

[Rune]

It's an immersion thing, the way I see it. A bit of clipping can be rationalized as "they restructured the interior of the probe core to make room for a bit of RCS fuel", but putting wings inside fuel tanks is throwing realism out the window.

Or trying to cheat a lifting body design into existence in a game with a horrible aerodynamic model...

[Azimech]

Control surfaces inside the hull ... I wonder if FAR will see them.

[Pondafarr]

I've seen several Y-Wings, but none using B9/Spaceplane+.

Hoping to make this work, too cool a craft.

My TIE Fighter was a little more successful, but it had to use a launch pod, with an underslung fuel pod/wings to maintain atmosphere flight. Once in space, the pod will eject, and the ions will work perfectly.