[1.12.X] Tantares - Stockalike Soyuz and MIR [16.1][28.05.2024][Mars Expedition WIP]

[Leszek]

Featuring radial decouplers that work, thanks to a handy little trick Leszek has pointed out!

I am very glad it worked out.

[biohazard15]

Thanks for the feedback! Quick!

The TWR point is fair to say, it's currently a lot better than it's original TWR of 5+ !

I think the core engines will be nerfed down further, to around 250 - 270 thrust, pushing them more in line with existing 1.25m engines.

I think it's a tricky balance, as I want it to be able to deliver minimum 7 tons to LKO (With stock aero).

Please be careful here. If you nerf the core stage, it may be impossible to replicate Soyuz-2.1v (Soyuz-2 without boosters). With current engines, it sits at TWR 1.24 and total dV about 5000 m\s (with 2 ton payload) - which means a bare minimum to achieve LKO with stock aerodynamics.

By the way, it is surprisingly stable with FAR (I've upgraded from NEAR), even with all engines at 100% thrust.

Edited November 23, 2014 by biohazard15

[ZodiaK]

hoooooooooooooooooorah!!!!!!!!

[AppleDavidJeans]

Hey Beale,

I recommend that you change the flame FX on the TLV's engines. The "layers" of the flame keep jumping up and down, which is disconcerting for me.

You should consider this alternative for the engine flame FX.

In other aspects, the Soyuz works great! Great job as always, Beale!

Edited November 23, 2014 by AppleDavidJeans

[Beale]

I am very glad it worked out.

Great little tip!

Please be careful here. If you nerf the core stage, it may be impossible to replicate Soyuz-2.1v (Soyuz-2 without boosters). With current engines, it sits at TWR 1.24 and total dV about 5000 m\s (with 2 ton payload) - which means a bare minimum to achieve LKO with stock aerodynamics.

By the way, it is surprisingly stable with FAR (I've upgraded from NEAR), even with all engines at 100% thrust.

Interesting there, I did not know about the Soyuz-2.1v...

I wonder, how about using the upper-stage engines for the boosters? As a temporary workaround.

It may comes to having three sets of engines...

Ah, but I must experiment with this. Thanks for the further feedback!

hoooooooooooooooooorah!!!!!!!!

Hehehe! Thankyou!

Hey Beale,

I recommend that you change the flame FX on the TLV's engines. It looks disconcerting and unrealistic.

http://i.imgur.com/RO0OBMF.png

You should consider this alternative for the engine flame FX.

In other aspects, the Soyuz works great! Great job as always, Beale!

Thanks for the feedback

Though I do not want to introduce dependencies on hot rockets, some FX changes are needed, yeah.

Aside from the smoke that is mentioned. It seems it would be better off with a single "Fire column (English?)" rather than four separate jets.

I'll see what the options for FX are, I can always make my own if it comes to it

Edited November 23, 2014 by Beale

[AppleDavidJeans]

I also made a craft file for a Tantares + Tavio. Here's the link: http://www./download/bj9doana6x0dxb0/[TST]_Tantares_Tavio.craft.zip Here's what it looks like in the VAB:

The craft file uses Procedural Fairings, customized to fit Tantares (although it clips the orbital module a little, it doesn't show on the outside, so I consider that fine.) so for those that don't have PF or want to do their own thing, here's the subassembly file for it:

http://www./download/hc6pqasdn5yt9wy/Soyuz_TLV.craft.zip

I also took the liberty of adding action groups to the craft file. The action groups are in the description.

Edited November 23, 2014 by AppleDavidJeans

[Niemand303]

@Beale, congrats with the release, and if you are still online, we got a real Tantres-TLV launch in an hour (I have only a Russian link): http://www.federalspace.ru/317/

[Beale]

I also made a craft file for a Tantares + Tavio. Here's the link: http://www./download/bj9doana6x0dxb0/[TST]_Tantares_Tavio.craft.zip Here's what it looks like in the VAB:

http://i.imgur.com/WlFJJHP.png

The craft file uses Procedural Fairings, customized to fit Tantares (although it clips the orbital module a little, it doesn't show on the outside, so I consider that fine.) so for those that don't have PF or want to do their own thing, here's the subassembly file for it:

http://www./download/hc6pqasdn5yt9wy/Soyuz_TLV.craft.zip

I also took the liberty of adding action groups to the craft file. The action groups are in the description.

Nice stuff! I've added it to the front page

@Beale, congrats with the release, and if you are still online, we got a real Tantres-TLV launch in an hour (I have only a Russian link): http://www.federalspace.ru/317/

I'll be watching! ( á° Üʖ á°)

[AppleDavidJeans]

@Beale, congrats with the release, and if you are still online, we got a real Tantres-TLV launch in an hour (I have only a Russian link): http://www.federalspace.ru/317/

For us Americans and/or don't speak Russian: http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html#.VHI8rocnVFK

EDIT: Interesting, they still have ground crew working less than an hour before launch. Back in the Space Shuttle days, the ground crew would have hoofed it to the bunkers a full 3 hours before launch

Edited November 23, 2014 by AppleDavidJeans

[Niemand303]

For us Americans and/or don't speak Russian: http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html#.VHI8rocnVFK

EDIT: Interesting, they still have ground crew working less than an hour before launch. Back in the Space Shuttle days, the ground crew would have hoofed it to the bunkers a full 3 hours before launch

That's because there should be checks at any time, safety first!

[Leszek]

My feed of the launch kept cutting out.

Regarding the r7 release, good stuff. Bit of an overkill for FAR/NEAR users, had to turn down the thrust to 41%. Very workable though.

[G0DZKILLA]

I seem to be missing the side boosters from the downloads. Why?

[spidersVise]

Will Tantares have an Olaf the Snowman in the IVA?

[AppleDavidJeans]

http://i.imgur.com/2hl05vc.png

will tantares have an olaf the snowman in the iva?

whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?

EDIT: Research shows that it's a tradition of the Russians. The commander would select a toy or doll, often chosen by his or her children actually, to take with them to space, often to use, as Leszek said below, as a "highly calibrated zero-g indicator." Notable talismans have included the red bird from Angry Birds (Soyuz TMA-22, November 2011), and Smokey the Bear from the US Forest Service (Soyuz TMA-04M, May 2012).

Edited November 23, 2014 by AppleDavidJeans

[Leszek]

http://i.imgur.com/2hL05VC.png

Will Tantares have an Olaf the Snowman in the IVA?

In the rocket science community we refer to it as a "highly calibrated 0g indicator."

[hcalves]

Nice... R7 was one of my requests!

Awesome parts.

One thing though: max thrust is ridiculously high! I'm dropping side boosters half full and still making to LKO with a proper ascent.

[Leszek]

I am not sure max thrust is an issue. The engines might be too efficient. That way we can keep the lifting power without all the DV.

[kopapaka]

: Wink:

8 Kerbonauts!!!

[tygoo7]

Thanks for the feedback

Though I do not want to introduce dependencies on hot rockets, some FX changes are needed, yeah.

Aside from the smoke that is mentioned. It seems it would be better off with a single "Fire column (English?)" rather than four separate jets.

http://www.spaceistheplace.ca/soyuz_expedition_13_launch.jpg

I'll see what the options for FX are, I can always make my own if it comes to it

What about the same FX you used on the Proton?

[AppleDavidJeans]

What about the same FX you used on the Proton?

That's a good idea. I was thinking that too also. However, both the Proton and the Soyuz use different propellants, so Beale may want to go with a different FX, likely custom made.

[Beale]

Regarding the r7 release, good stuff. Bit of an overkill for FAR/NEAR users, had to turn down the thrust to 41%. Very workable though.

The thrust is a bit of an issue!

Now I have discovered the Soyuz 2.1v, I am keen to allow that as a possibility, so it is tricky middle ground... I'm looking at 290kN of thrust, which would reduce the overall thrust by 50kN, not a lot, but a fair amount.

Do you use KIDS by any chance to scale thrust/ISP to FAR/NEAR settings?

I seem to be missing the side boosters from the downloads. Why?

It is likely, you have it installed in the wrong place. The Tantares LV folder needs to be in GameData.

This is because the side boosters "borrow" the texture from the main stack, so it is sensitive to where the files are placed.

If that is the case, I'm really not sure... Are you playing Career?

Nice... R7 was one of my requests!

Awesome parts.

One thing though: max thrust is ridiculously high! I'm dropping side boosters half full and still making to LKO with a proper ascent.

Thanks!

But, that doesn't sound quite right...

Perhaps I am just flying inefficiently, but, are you using FAR/NEAR by any chance?

I am not sure max thrust is an issue. The engines might be too efficient. That way we can keep the lifting power without all the DV.

It's a tricky thing... Reducing the ISP further might make the engines a bit useless outside of this one launcher. They are currently in medium-low kind of range at 340.

Ehm, I guess dropping to 320 is kind of acceptable still, but going any lower, I would not like to.

: Wink:

http://img98.rajce.idnes.cz/d9802/10/10447/10447390_7baedd9cfb1ead1a3fc4c0161e06b526/images/screenshot165.jpg?ver=0

8 Kerbonauts!!!

Nice! You are pushing the limits here

That's a fairly large vehicle for a small rocket, you have no difficulty making orbit?

Also, you have added smoke FX?

What about the same FX you used on the Proton?

That's a good idea. I was thinking that too also. However, both the Proton and the Soyuz use different propellants, so Beale may want to go with a different FX, likely custom made.

The Proton FX is a pretty good match, yeah

The propellant mix is true, for real life. Custom FX are still reasonably new to me, but if I can get something half decent looking, I'll use that.

I've been playing around a little. I'll try and grab some screenshots after work.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Beale

[Leszek]

"Do you use KIDS by any chance to scale thrust/ISP to FAR/NEAR settings?"

No I just use the rocket as given. I have KIDS, but I only use it on my 10x Kerbin install, where this rocket doesn't need it because it has the delta V to get to orbit just fine without the help.

It takes 3600 DV to get to orbit with NEAR. It takes about 4500 to get to orbit with stock aero. It takes 8.8 km/s to get to orbit with NEAR and 10x Kerbin. The rocket is pushing ~ twice the needed amount for stock. I don't think it is a good idea to put 7 tons on the top and then tweak until 4500 DV. Even though that will get your 7 tons to LKO just fine I think it will have unintended side effects like dropping the radial boosters 20 seconds into the flight. (Not that I did the math to see.)

I am not using the 3rd stage and leaving it off the rocket as I have overkill DV without it. That in turn means that I don't need as much take off thrust, which leads to 40% tweaked throttle in the VAB.

With the 50 kilo newtons less thrust and a bit less efficiency I might be able to use the 3rd stage.

[hcalves]

Thanks!

But, that doesn't sound quite right...

Perhaps I am just flying inefficiently, but, are you using FAR/NEAR by any chance?

Yes, with FAR, and only the two bottom stages, with a standard Soyuz TMA for payload.

I fly around Mach 1 for max dynamic pressure until upper atmo, then rev up, drop boosters and start gravity turn. But the boosters are still 1/2 full by then, I'm just carrying dead weight, so I guess the TRW is too high.

If I build it with 3 stages, TWR is more realistic but then I have way too much delta V. I guess it's okay for the LV to have a bit excess delta V since we're launching from equator instead of the Kerbin's equivalent of Kazakhstan, but not like double the necessary to LKO!

I guess you got the numbers from the real thing? That would make it unbalanced for Kerbin dimensions.

Edited November 24, 2014 by hcalves

[kopapaka]

Nice! You are pushing the limits here

That's a fairly large vehicle for a small rocket, you have no difficulty making orbit?

Also, you have added smoke FX?

Tantarés is amazing!

Nir station launch one ...

[Cydonian Monk]

My thoughts on the Thrust and/or ÃŽâ€v topic: I think the thrust for the core stage (stage 2) is good at 300. That lets the full Tantares "stack" have a TWR of about 1.5 after booster separation. Perhaps add a second config for the booster engines that have about 50-60% of the thrust of the core, but are otherwise the same part? That would differ from the real R-7, where the RD-107 and RD-108 are effectively the same (thrust-wise), but the dynamics of KSP are different from reality too.

Dropping atmospheric ISP slightly is a good solution to curtail the excess ÃŽâ€v. These are fairly early-game parts, and should be somewhat inline with the early stock parts for balance purposes. At the same time they should still be able to deliver a payload as heavy as the Tantares to a reasonable "station" orbit around Kerbin.

Ultimately if you change everything or change nothing I'll still be happy with it.