prevent necros

[KasperVld]

I won't discuss individual cases in public though. Camacha, if you want further explanation on that example you gave feel free to PM me about it. As far as your suggested rules go: the choice to edit or remove a post is up to the moderator in question. a lot of what you're suggesting is exactly what happens. When we delete rule-breaking (or otherwise unwanted) content we send a message to the user called a 'notice' to tell them what's wrong, in more serious cases or with repeated behaviour this is upgraded to an 'infraction' which can carry with it (or in combination with other infractions) restrictions to a user's ability to post. A general warning is often posted when a thread goes off-topic because it's easy and effective. The thread can get back on track and everyone is reminded of the rules. If you haven't gone off-topic then there's no need to feel attacked by the moderator.

Keeping one thread per subject is next to impossible though as the moderators would have to know all the major threads on all topics and merge any new threads on such topics. It's not reasonable to expect users to do this either as you can only see so many threads per page and old threads get buried pretty easily. It's a nice idea, but it isn't practical.

[BadRocketsCo.]

I personally found the "replying to bad posts" rule by Camacha really useful, but would people follow the rule in practice and what would moderators do, if someone does not follow the rule?

[Camacha]

I divided my reactions up into separate posts to make them more legible

I don't see any unanswered questions in this thread, though there are a lot of statements.

I feel I have clearly indicated why I think the community rules are broken as they are (and were) and have suggested how to fix them. I have extensive experience with them on other, much bigger forums, and they work and work well. At the moment the moderating policy is killing good threads. We all know KSP lives and dies by the quality of the community, so this is something that touches us all.

We've had a revision of the Community Rules last week in which our position on necroposting has been added to the rules very clearly:

It saddens me that after all this you decide to actually make a move in the wrong direction. Old threads are not bad. Not per definition. Not adding anything to old posts or bringing up no longer relevant posts, that is bad. But simply sticking a label on a thread because of a totally arbitrary timespan is damaging and, in all fairness, short sighted.

It seems the damage done is still not understood. Also please understand this is not about moderator decisions (as has been suggested a couple of times). This is about bad policy that hurts the community.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Camacha

[Camacha]

I won't discuss individual cases in public though. Camacha, if you want further explanation on that example you gave feel free to PM me about it.

I do not care about individual cases. Every useful thread that gets killed is one too many, but it is the structural nature of it that is the problem. That is why this needs to be discussed in public. Judging by the reactions I am getting I am not alone in my worries.

The lack of official response in this topic has forced me to respond to unwanted policy execution elsewhere - which I feel obliged to do - but this is not about individual posts. This is about fixing a broken and damaging policy.

As far as your suggested rules go: the choice to edit or remove a post is up to the moderator in question. a lot of what you're suggesting is exactly what happens. When we delete rule-breaking (or otherwise unwanted) content we send a message to the user called a 'notice' to tell them what's wrong, in more serious cases or with repeated behaviour this is upgraded to an 'infraction' which can carry with it (or in combination with other infractions) restrictions to a user's ability to post. A general warning is often posted when a thread goes off-topic because it's easy and effective. The thread can get back on track and everyone is reminded of the rules. If you haven't gone off-topic then there's no need to feel attacked by the moderator.

I still see open threats of closing a topic when people are misbehaving. That is not a productive course of action. All the things you mention here are encouraging good behaviour (and per my suggestions), but threads should not be closed because of the bad behaviour of a few.

The same goes for the infamous necro. The fact that a thread is old has nothing to do with its usefulness. It should be judged by the latter and not the former. Yes, some old posts are useless, a lot of them are not. Most are closed though and this is now even formalized in the policy. I have seen too many good threads die because of this already.

Keeping one thread per subject is next to impossible though as the moderators would have to know all the major threads on all topics and merge any new threads on such topics. It's not reasonable to expect users to do this either as you can only see so many threads per page and old threads get buried pretty easily. It's a nice idea, but it isn't practical.

If people are encouraged to post in the right thread, there is barely anything to merge. There are also a lot less threads, so topics does not get buried as fast. And, of course, proper netiquette to use the search before you post anything. No need to foul up a forum with a question that has already been answered and you will have your answer quicker too.

In all seriousness, I understand the objections. They are fair questions to ask. Yet it works on a forum with over two millions posts a year (and with a roughly similar demographic), so I guess that renders the practical objections moot. It is primarily a matter of educating and training your visitors with a coherent policy and consistent moderation

Edited July 31, 2014 by Camacha

[Camacha]

I personally found the "replying to bad posts" rule by Camacha really useful, but would people follow the rule in practice and what would moderators do, if someone does not follow the rule?

This is also a rule that is used elsewhere with success. People are encouraged to report bad posts instead of replying to them, so they become part of the solution rather than the problem. When they cannot resist their posts is edited or removed to prevent further escalation and they will also receive a reminder that their behaviour is not desired for reasons explained. Upon repeated offence reprimands or more serious action can be taken. Once is a mistake, more often is a deliberate breach of proper conduct.

If you reward good behaviour and punish the bad the community can be your ally and not just a pesky moderation problem.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Camacha

[Tiberion]

I've seen forum communities run to two extremes:

Duplicate topic is posted - "This thread is a duplicate, please use search you moron and post in the appropriate thread" - locks thread

and

Old Post is necro'd - "This post is 10 days old, do not post in old threads you idiot. Locking this one to prevent misinformation; please start a new thread.

The 1st leads to tons of posts with old information at the front of them and new information buried somewhere inbetween. It makes finding specific pieces of info impossible

The 2nd leads to hundreds of posts on one subject, each with a tiny fraction of information in them. It makes searching impossible.

As with almost all things in life, the best solution is a happy medium which is moderators by the forum staff.

Really old posts with bad info should be locked if necro'd

Duplicate posts should be locked or merged so all fresh relevant info on one specific subject is on one place.

For the most part, Squad does a pretty good at this.

[Camacha]

Really old posts with bad info should be locked if necro'd

Make that no longer relevant threads and you area spot on. That could be due to bad info, but not merely by old age. Extra care should also be taken in the case of old mods and projects, as I have seen people carefully polling interest and scouting out the idea of renewing an old mod, only to be crushed by moderation before it could flower into a real new project. The concept that these folks should and will open up a new thread to continue the discussion is just not working out, since it often happens before they even know for sure they want to pursue this as they never got to properly explore the idea.

Duplicate posts should be locked or merged so all fresh relevant info on one specific subject is on one place.

For the most part, Squad does a pretty good at this.

I have seen worse and it is not bad, but it could quite easily be better. I think the intentions are right, but the policy needs to be polished to fire on all cylinders. Which is to be expected in such a relatively young community.

[TheCanadianVendingMachine]

Or do something Bohemia Interative does. Put a "No one has posted in this thread for X days" on the top of the thread. Example.

[LaytheAerospace]

As a forum goer since there were forums (anybody else old enough to have had a Prodigy dial-up account?), my recommendation is that you learn to ignore the occasional necro. You can't stop it without also stopping potentially useful conversation. Sometimes somebody really does have something useful to add years later.

A gentle reminder to check post dates is all that's needed to deal with necroing. It's pretty much always an honest mistake.

[Guest]

On Hard-Light Productions forums there's a feature that displays (in the same way an error/warning is displayed) the time since the last activity in the thread when you try to post in it. You can still do so (and indeed, on particularly slow/near-inactive projects, this is commonplace), but you get a clear warning that it's might be a good idea to start a new thread instead.

[Sky_walker]

Hide dates posted.

Perhaps then instead of focusing on whatever it's a necro or not - they'll focus on a meritum of the message posted.

[Dodgey]

Hide dates posted.

Perhaps then instead of focusing on whatever it's a necro or not - they'll focus on a meritum of the message posted.

While that would be ideal the lack of people doing such causes many necros in the first place I have noticed. I think that a pop up or a notice would surfice if a thread was 3 months since its last post, just a gentle reminder would do a world of good. I mean the majority of people I have noticed necroing were newbies on the forums, though no fault of their own (well maybe a little) they are just uninformed.

[LaytheAerospace]

I mean the majority of people I have noticed necroing were newbies on the forums, though no fault of their own (well maybe a little) they are just uninformed.

Exactly. Post dates are useful information, and it's possible to have new, useful information for an old thread. When looking for information about a specific issue or feature, I'll frequently choose not to read a forum thread based on its post date, because I can tell that the information is likely to be out of date. I've also responded to years old threads about issues that I have new information on, like a workaround for a bug that was never fixed.

Most people are well intentioned, and will do the right thing with the right information.

[WinkAllKerb'']

what's old boring and rebarbative for someone, may be new, fresh, useful, informative for someone else.

This is how as human we reproduce and share and teach each other with our difference to make the agora better.

I can only say, that grrrgrrring against necro just tell to me that someone forgave he once don't know. Never forget such a basic thing.

(trolling, fishing, & etc are another matter handled by moderator but imho necro never a bad thing for the teaching potential with a random reader)