Update Excitement

[LethalDose]

Not to play Devil's advocate, but it's really not. If Squad didn't know which direction to take the game, community interaction would be paramount. If the game was not at all known, and they needed to get the word out, community interaction would be paramount. If they were considering a major game-changing re-gear, and weren't sure how the players would respond to it, community interaction would be paramount.

But as it is, they know where they want to take the game right now, they have a roadmap, the game's very popular and well-lit, it's been a best-seller on Steam for ages, so there's no loss in spotlight there, and there's been no huge shift in direction that the players haven't been down for yet (Curse notwithstanding), so that's not an issue, either.

And the fact is, they're a small team. As your fanbase expands, the amount of time your programmers have to tell said fanbase what they're doing dwindles. We aren't their project coordinator, so them even doing their Tuesday blurbs is above and beyond reasonable expectation.

I mean what do you expect from major developers like EA and Ubisoft? You'd be lucky if their games even had a forum, much less anyone on staff to look at it. Squad's far more vocal and responsive than far larger developers.

I hear, understand, and respect your counter-point. We have different opinions and that's fine. My response will be brief, as I don't want to hijack the forum.

To the best of my knowledge, EA and Ubisoft don't use the "early access" system. They don't need to, they're established production houses with established reputations. They also have large advertising budgets and games that appeal to the "mainstream". KSP/SQUAD lacks both of these attributes. IMO, comparing these companies to SQUAD is like comparing apples to... uhm... pumpkins? or Kerbals to oranges?

Also the size of the fanbase has nothing to do with the amount of time the devs have to address the community. The size of the code to manage, though, does. Regardless, IMO they can and should do more/better. There are a whole ton of posts (from myself and others) in this forum about the general and specific problems with how communication has been handled with the community, if you want to see the discussion.

Other small dev teams and independent developers have successfully used the early access model to bootstrap funding for games. The obvious example is Mojang. They did a great job addressing a huge community, despite being a small team for most of the development. They still do a good job. That communication with the players is one reason that the game did so well.

Better communication with the community leads to less speculation, disappointment, rumors, etc, which in turn leads to better game buzz from the community. Given that KSP is something of a niche game from a small developer, it really needs that good buzz to succeed.

Hence, better communication from the devs would help a lot with KSP's ability to succeed.

Now back to our regularly scheduled static discussion.

[Rowsdower]

And the fact is, they're a small team. As your fanbase expands, the amount of time your programmers have to tell said fanbase what they're doing dwindles. We aren't their project coordinator, so them even doing their Tuesday blurbs is above and beyond reasonable expectation.

That's also why people me are around. I certainly can't cure all ills that may be felt, but at the very least, I listen to and report what's going on. I can certainly suggest, poke and prod and push for things as hard as I can, which I have done on numerous occasions during my tenure, to varying success.

That said, most of what we’re working on was reported both at the start of the 0.24 development cycle and then what we’re planning to add to the update was featured in HarvesteR’s posts here, here and here. At this stage of development, we are quite focused on the next update, which means that sometimes, info may be sparse and sometimes, there might be information overload. Either way, you are being heard and we’re all working towards a greater goal that we hope will make you happy in the long run.

[Jon Tash]

What I miss was the list of "planned features" for a specific update that were posted at the beginning of each update cycle.

Harv would post this list in black font then highlight in green each feature that was finalized. Anyone who was here around 0.13-0.18 will remember that.

Here's an old example: http://archive.today/EmO4

Nowadays the list of features is vague or non-existent. If a feature gets pushed back, then that's what happens but it seems that right now it's a random set of features that come and go as development progresses.

Yes those were the good old days and the best Dev communications. I remember when C7, Harvester and other Devs posted regularly on the forum for each update. We use to get screenshots from new stuff that we would get, even strange images that would excite the community for weeks (like NovaSilisko used to do).

[MKI]

I still don't really understand anything about the new engines mentioned. As a big game play additions advacator i like the thought of OMS engines and their implications to getting closer to actual Space Shuttles in the game. (Seriously, we are getting the re-usability!)

I like how we know what we are getting but not in what capacity which is fine. The contract system as a whole i don't really expect to know anything about. But vague descriptions of in game engines based off real life ones makes my mind race. I would like to know what exactly the hell these things are gonna do or be 8O

I will refrain myself from getting excited as the last time i was things exploded and we didn't get the update until a week after.

[EvilotionCR2]

There's some good info in the 0.24.11 Gigathread.

So far, we know of the following are coming:

- UI refinements

- Contracts/Money/Recovery in Career mode

- New Vernier thrusters and OMS, which has been interpreted to mean LFO-powered attitude control and MP-powered engine

- Tweaks to Mainsail efficiency to give a reason to use it over the LFB

Likely some more that they're not revealing, there always seems to be a surprise or two.

Honestly, that's it? That's all we get after months of waiting? One new feature? Maybe three new parts and better UI? Back in my days we got about dozen of planets in one update. Then completely refined parts and UI, Kerbin and many planets in the next update. Devs are getting lazy and team small.

[EvilotionCR2]

Why do you only consider updates that add to career mode as valid?

Uhh... Because that's the point of the game.

[r4pt0r]

Uhh... Because that's the point of the game.

i disagree. it is career "mode" or sandbox "mode". both modes are a different way to play within the framework of the game elements, the game elements being building and launching into space.

Honestly, that's it? That's all we get after months of waiting? One new feature? Maybe three new parts and better UI? Back in my days we got about dozen of planets in one update. Then completely refined parts and UI, Kerbin and many planets in the next update. Devs are getting lazy and team small.

you serious right now? the word of the day is "optimization". the things you dont see make the game SO much better. the backend stuff i dare say is more important than "muh new planets and parts" also,they cant keep adding planets, the system will get too crowded.they work damn hard on every update, don't you undermine that.

Edited June 10, 2014 by r4pt0r

[Red Iron Crown]

Honestly, that's it? That's all we get after months of waiting? One new feature? Maybe three new parts and better UI? Back in my days we got about dozen of planets in one update. Then completely refined parts and UI, Kerbin and many planets in the next update. Devs are getting lazy and team small.

If you consider contracts + money + reputation one new feature, it's a pretty significant one that fleshes out career mode pretty thoroughly.

Uhh... Because that's the point of the game.

Well, now I'm confused. The implementation of the system that will bring career mode, "the point of the game", close to completion does not seem like a significant enough update?

Edit for below: My sarcasm meter didn't twitch, did I read it wrong?

Edited June 10, 2014 by Red Iron Crown

[Franklin]

Easy now, I think Evilotion was being satirical.

[r4pt0r]

Easy now, I think Evilotion was being satirical.

do you? read one of his previous threads http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/47670-KSP-development-rant

nothing is good enough for this guy. he seems very entitled for some reason.

i refer you to one of my old threads http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/63548-stop-being-an-entitled-prat

[Specialist290]

Friendly moderator reminder: Let's not let this thread devolve into a discussion of who's being entitled or not. Mudslinging never leaves anyone coming out clean.

[Moar Boosters]

Honestly, that's it? That's all we get after months of waiting? One new feature? Maybe three new parts and better UI? Back in my days we got about dozen of planets in one update. Then completely refined parts and UI, Kerbin and many planets in the next update. Devs are getting lazy and team small.

The addition of contracts isn't exactly 1 new feature. With money implemented..... they're essentially creating a management game to go alongside the launching of rockets. They've set themselves a standard that's pretty high with the quality of the rocket launching game, so they obviously want the management side to have similar quality.

There's been a long period with little communication or sizable updates, so I'm guessing they've run into a few problems getting career mode fully functional. This is pretty normal. All the other updates have been of good quality, so I think we just have to be patient for them to add a good quality management game onto what already exists.

[Javster]

All I hope is that 0.24 will break the trend of low-content updates.

[cantab]

All I hope is that 0.24 will break the trend of low-content updates.

I expect the opposite - it will be one of the last "big" updates. With a feature-complete career mode (coming in .24), a game engine update for 64 bit anf multithreaded physics (tied to an expected Unity release), and maybe some new or improved celestials, it's then only bug fixes and game balance tweaks standing in the way of the 1.0.

[r4pt0r]

All I hope is that 0.24 will break the trend of low-content updates.

ugh i cant find it but someone posted a graph showing that update size has been rising and rising. they are bigger everytime

[weezl]

Yep, their communication has been crap since I joined the Forums. It's really disappointing. SQUAD could make the early release model work for them, but given the current level of interaction they have with the community, it looks more like a cash grab.

Sigh.. why must it always devolve to this?

First.. I'm a developer myself.. and have lived that life for 30+ years now.

Development work is very intense at times and requires a lot of focus. And at a certain point in development.. after the plans are set for the next release.. there really isn't a lot to say other than 'its coming'.

There will ALWAYS be impatient folks wanting to be assured you are working on things, and you can NEVER make them happy, no matter what you do since their impatience will only be assuaged by the delivery, not the messages leading up to the delivery.

You don't know what their intent is, and are leaping at some greed oriented 'cash grab' without even knowing them or what their current issues are in development. Please oh please show a little more consideration. These are folks with families trying to make a living.. and I can assure you that 99% of them are just trying to do the best they can. Some folks I've met in development are jerks.. but they are less that 1% of the total population.. the rest are just as I describe them.

[Franklin]

Imagine not only being a full-time programmer but you've also got a thousand kids constantly demanding you tell them what you're working on at any given moment. At some point you gotta tell them to go play outside while you get some work done.

[weezl]

When I bought this game, I bought it "as-is". The game is in development with no obligation on Squad's part to do anything further.

Well said. Me too.

[RidingTheFlow]

Imagine not only being a full-time programmer but you've also got a thousand kids constantly demanding you tell them what you're working on at any given moment. At some point you gotta tell them to go play outside while you get some work done.

To be fair this is trade off for getting earlier financing for your project development.

Try to go traditional way instead and secure development funds via contract with publisher? You will soon find out that these "business guys" in lot respects worse than aforementioned thousand kids - at least these kids are not your bosses you legally obliged to obey

[weezl]

Imagine not only being a full-time programmer but you've also got a thousand kids constantly demanding you tell them what you're working on at any given moment. At some point you gotta tell them to go play outside while you get some work done.

I so totally agree with this.

[weezl]

To be fair this is trade off for getting earlier financing for your project development.

Try to go traditional way instead and secure development funds via contract with publisher? You will soon find out that these "business guys" in lot respects worse than aforementioned thousand kids - at least these kids are not your bosses you legally obliged to obey

As a developer.. I've learned to value the input of those business folks.. they look at the world through the prism of the cold/hard reality of being able to make the bills at the end of the month. Not enough developers look at things this way..

Just like there are bad developers, there are bad business folks.. at the end of the day though we are all trying to make money to provide for our families and find the best way to keep current customers happy and get new customers.

The biggest mistakes I've seen from the business side is under-valuing how quality contributes (or detracts) from customer satisfaction.. and that software engineers invest in quality like all other software activity.. slowly. Cutting working code is a huge effort to get right.. and the more complex, the slower going.

I think many of the really awful game releases in the last 10 years are a result of these things, combined:

• Software engineering overestimating what it can get done in a given time period.
  
• Business side under-budgets for already incorrect software schedule.
  
• They run out of money and decide to try to release anyway, with horrific consequences.
  

I say this because I've seen it.. a lot.

Thankfully, Squad seems to get the incremental delivery/good quality model right.... for a .25 product, KSP is amazingly stable.

[AmpsterMan]

Heh, I'm going to chip in a little on this one too. I never really understood what was going on behind the scenes before I became a moderator. As is, I still don't know much but I see a lot more of the behind the scenes stuff. It's a lot of work. Programming, modeling, running a business, and managing a community are not a thing that a small group of people can do. It is time consuming and takes a lot of effort. For what the word of a random guy on the internet is worth (i.e. Me) I think SQUAD is definately trying their best.

[MR4Y]

I'm rather uninpressed by updates as of late. It's either:

-Bug fixes (in an alpha game nonetheless. Maybe the game is in beta already)

-Some new functionality which we had already using a certain mod. The functionality is exactly the same (same bugs as well) as the mod with minor visual differences.

[LethalDose]

Sigh.. why must it always devolve to this?

Sigh, why must it always devolve to an oversimplification of one thing I said.

I didn't say what Squad did was a cash grab, nor do I believe that what Squad did was a cash grab. What I that statement meant was that it looks more like a cash grab than is good for the future of the game.

As I've said in other posts, the early release model can work well when the devs communicate with the fanbase. Doing a poor job of communicate with the fan base during the development of an early release gives the impression that the developer is more interested in the fans' money than the fans' feedback even though that may not be true.

And for the record, I understand there is a finite amount of time in the developers day. I'm a graduate student about 6 months from defending my dissertation. Trust me, I get that time is limited. But if they want to use an early access development model, they also have to expect a longer development cycle because they need to communicate with their community if for no other reason than to manage their image. And that genie's out of the bottle. They can choose: Communicate with the community or risk generating bad word-of-mouth about the developer due to lack of communication.

I think Squad actually does care about the fans. But I think it needs to be demonstrated better than it is. The community's goodwill and patience will only get stretched so far.

You and Squad can chalk up anyone being critical of Squad's communication and image as just a bunch of internet malcontents looking for something to complain about and that are impossible to keep happy. Or you could try to see things from someone else's point of view.

Your choice.

PS Great that you're a developer and most developers are nice people. If they're great people, I'd love to see that side of them. But they'd have to take the time show it.

Edited June 10, 2014 by LethalDose

[Audiopulse]

And that’s exactly what I want to criticize about the communication politics of Squad recently.

While in ancient times (before the DLC meltdown) the communication with the community was the best I have ever seen.

Nowadays the devs yet the community manager rarely are watching the forums.

Lets look at the possibility of talking to the community:

- Squadcast (KSP-TV) should take place every friday. (For months none of the devs were on Squadcast at all while the guys who are on "can`t give any information right now")

- Dev-Blogs (last from Harvester 1st October 2013)

- Devnote Tuesdays (while working and almost on time, hardly any new information’s about the development)

And the worst of all I have not seen any screenshot of the devwork for month.

I don't know, am I the only one who feels more like a bit let down???

It's not about creating hype its about talking to your fans.

I felt like answering that because what you and maybe some others need to know is that this is always how it goes with Gamedevelopment - Updates in the beginning are always more frequent and gamechanging compared to later on. That is not because the Devs - Squad - are getting lazy or dont care about people, but simply how Work-progress applies to the project.

A simple example: You are working on a ball of clay. Every day you add a piece of clay at the size of your thumb. At day one you start with one of those pieces the size of your thumb. At day two you add another clump - your total mass increased by 100%. It doubled in size.

Ten days later, though, you add the eleventh piece of clay to your ball. The piece you add will still have the size of a thumb while your ball contains already ten pieces of clay and is ten times the size - your total mass-increase is only 10%, even though you added the same amount of clay you added back in day one.

To translate that in KSP-terms. Kerbal Space Programm is the ball of clay Squad is working on. Every week, lets say, they add another weeks worth of work to the game, making it bigger and more complex. With every Week that goes by the game requires more work to deliver Updates with the same 'potency'. Harvester published a blogentry about that very topic some time back and mentioned how it actually boggles him self.

So - if you feel different thats fine but I dont think you should waste your good mood on non-existing issues. Sqad didnt stop listening or working on KSP. Stuff just takes more time now and will always do. After all you should enjoy KSP for what it is anyways and not what might or might not come with the next update.