extraterrestrial paradox

[Tux]

So with thousands of new exoplanets being discovered, massive ocean found under the earths (mantle?) and with newish (this decade) discoveries of extremophiles in the deep ocean its increasingly looking like life is really common in the universe as we had expected it is.

But if its so common why haven't we gotten any hello's?

I think its proof positive that communication or travel at those distances is extremely unlikely

[Soda Popinski]

The question you're looking at is called the "Fermi Paradox."

My guess is intelligent life with the technology to communicate via radio is rare. It took Earth billions of years to do this, and we've only been at it for a century. What are the chances we'll still be using radio in another century? So that's 100 years out of 4,000,000,000 years. Today, much of the radio traffic is digital and compressed - which looks like noise. Secondly, due to the inverse-square law, it would be very difficult to detect our radio signals over background past a few dozen light years. So the alien civilization would have to be purposely beaming out a radio beacon of sorts to be detected.

My hope is there is an interstellar "Federation" that won't talk to us until we get our act together.

[Sirrobert]

massive ocean found under the earths (mantle?)

Wait what?

There is no ocean under the mantle. There is magma there.

Maybe you mean the moon Titan?

[Aethon]

There is no ocean under the mantle.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rare-diamond-confirms-that-earths-mantle-holds-an-oceans-worth-of-water/

For a good discussion of some of this see.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/82033-Alien-intelligence-and-civilizations

[Red Iron Crown]

Maybe we're not listening in the right way. Perhaps radio is an interim technology to be superseded by something better when we discover it, and radio is just a stepping stone technology like steam power.

[vger]

I'd reckon that a civilization more advanced than us, if they have a form of communication that can get around the light barrier, that's what they'd want to use.

It's either that or risk waiting hundreds of years between messages.

[Stargate525]

It's interesting to think that we assume aliens will be using radio. For interstellar stuff, it's atrocious. The better communication methods don't have nearly as much bleed; it's like blundering around in a forest and shouting, asking why we can't hear anyone else shouting, when they're in tree stands using cell phones.

[Sirrobert]

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rare-diamond-confirms-that-earths-mantle-holds-an-oceans-worth-of-water/

For a good discussion of some of this see.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/82033-Alien-intelligence-and-civilizations

Well damn. That's a first I hear that. Interesting

[Seret]

I'd reckon that a civilization more advanced than us, if they have a form of communication that can get around the light barrier, that's what they'd want to use.

It's either that or risk waiting hundreds of years between messages.

Of course, long pauses in the conversations could also account for the apparent silence.

[lajoswinkler]

Wait what?

There is no ocean under the mantle. There is magma there.

Maybe you mean the moon Titan?

It's not an ocean. It's a layer of OH ion bearing mineral (source of water) and there's plenty of it. It's nothing new, actually. The hypothesis is very old, and the evidence is not new. It's just that we finally have some better evidence today.

This should be a common thing among all terrestrial planets. Space is loaded with water bearing substances.

But yeah, the media likes to lie and stir some crap. I guess it's because of that Noah movie.

[Seret]

But yeah, the media likes to lie and stir some crap.

From my own personal experiences with journalists, I don't think it's malicious. I just think they genuinely don't understand about a lot of the stuff they report. The few people working in media with genuine science and engineering knowledge are often hamstrung by their editors.

[KOCOUR]

From my own personal experiences with journalists, I don't think it's malicious. I just think they genuinely don't understand about a lot of the stuff they report. The few people working in media with genuine science and engineering knowledge are often hamstrung by their editors.

Nope. they lie on purpose. I have friend who is yournalist and he calls it adding a bit of spice to the story. In his case it means making up entire story.

[rtxoff]

Understandable. A meal without spice would only taste as half as good.

[Red Iron Crown]

Nope. they lie on purpose. I have friend who is yournalist and he calls it adding a bit of spice to the story. In his case it means making up entire story.

Even if they don't lie, they stretch the truth as far as possible. Sensationalism, fear mongering, and lowest common denominator targeting are the bane of accurate news reporting, but the staple of high ratings, page views or circulation.

[YNM]

Nope. they lie on purpose. I have friend who is yournalist and he calls it adding a bit of spice to the story. In his case it means making up entire story.

Even if they don't lie, they stretch the truth as far as possible. Sensationalism, fear mongering, and lowest common denominator targeting are the bane of accurate news reporting, but the staple of high ratings, page views or circulation.

Which is just why you shouldn't trust something too much. Even things you already trusted. Whenever challenged, review them again, and compare it. Whenever you want to use it, review it again.

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

I think that in future we may end up using something quantum-based, much like the new computers do...

Namely, Quantum entanglement - where two atoms are 'paired' and they both show the effects of something happening to one or the other, even seperated by great dstance... After all, Radio is currently still bound by the resonation of quartz and other minerals with a natural vibration, and most of our clocks/watches too!

If we can work out ways of using Quantum Entanglement for communications, I'm sure it will break various barriers

But then... what if this is what possible other alien races use? would we et interference from them that way? Not with Quantum Entanglement - it would be more like an old 2-way radio or walky-talkie that has been paired with only one other device, so more secure than traditionaly Radio, but with all the drawbacks of it being able to communicate between the devices with the Quantum Entangled atoms in the heat of it...

Can we get round the limitations? We don't know yet... they've barely started palying around with Quantum Mahematics with computers, but I'm sure that someone at some point will experiment more and wider than current scope, and it may open even more doors, and provide answers to some of the questions about the universe (Especially if NASA succeeds in building the worlds 1st Warp Drive, AKA Alcubierre Drive - see other post for discussion on that though )

[Seret]

If we can work out ways of using Quantum Entanglement for communications, I'm sure it will break various barriers

I'm not a physicist, but I do remember reading it explicitly stated at some point that the nature of quantum entanglement doesn't allow information to pass between them at superluminal speeds.

[Rickenbacker]

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rare-diamond-confirms-that-earths-mantle-holds-an-oceans-worth-of-water/

For a good discussion of some of this see.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/82033-Alien-intelligence-and-civilizations

Interesting. Still, not an ocean, just "an ocean's worth of water", which isn't the same thing .

As far as the Fermi paradox I think it's just extremely unlikely that we will ever contact or be contacted by another civilisation. The distances and time scales are simply too massive, and we haven't been around long enough. That doesn't mean that the universe isn't teeming with life - it probably is, we'll just never know it.

[Rickenbacker]

If we can work out ways of using Quantum Entanglement for communications, I'm sure it will break various barriers

We can't, that's simply not how quantum entanglement works. It simply means that if you observe a particle to have, say, "up" spin, its companion particle will turn out to have "down" spin, no matter how far away it is. That doesn't tell you anything about the other particle, except that it's in the opposite state from the one you're observing. There's no way to affect the other particle at a distance, nor can you tell if the other particle has been observed or not.

Frankly, I don't understand why this would require "entanglement" at all. Seems to me that all this means is that the paired particles always have opposite spins, but I don't see why they would have to be magically connected somehow for this to be true...

[Rickenbacker]

From my own personal experiences with journalists, I don't think it's malicious. I just think they genuinely don't understand about a lot of the stuff they report. The few people working in media with genuine science and engineering knowledge are often hamstrung by their editors.

I work in the media, well games media. And I think most of this stuff just comes from underpaid, unqualified journalists trying to get a story out with the minimum amount of work or research so they can move on to the next one. They're most likely freelance and can't afford to spend the time it would take to check all the facts, if they want to pay rent or eat.

[vger]

I'm not a physicist, but I do remember reading it explicitly stated at some point that the nature of quantum entanglement doesn't allow information to pass between them at superluminal speeds.

Wouldn't you need to get the entangled particle to a remote destination before you have any hope of using it for communication? We'd still be stuck waiting a very long time in that case.

And... what I remember of quantum entanglement, light speed is not an issue. Maybe that's outdated though. Theoretically it looks like entanglement can't get around relativity. And while you can't prove a negative, I would really hope this experiment gets done at some point to be sure. I wasn't able to find any example of trying to use entanglement as an FTL signal.

[Skyler4856]

My hope is there is an interstellar "Federation" that won't talk to us until we get our act together.

Perhaps there are better ways to communicate, other than light, that the Federation uses

http://xkcd.com/638/

[TheSaint]

http://xkcd.com/638/

That was exactly what came to my mind as well. Wikipedia has a great page on the Fermi Paradox that goes into a lot of possible explanations for it, some plausible, some not so much:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox

[Tex_NL]

We can't, that's simply not how quantum entanglement works. It simply means that if you observe a particle to have, say, "up" spin, its companion particle will turn out to have "down" spin, no matter how far away it is. That doesn't tell you anything about the other particle, except that it's in the opposite state from the one you're observing. There's no way to affect the other particle at a distance, nor can you tell if the other particle has been observed or not.

Frankly, I don't understand why this would require "entanglement" at all. Seems to me that all this means is that the paired particles always have opposite spins, but I don't see why they would have to be magically connected somehow for this to be true...

Actually, quantum entanglement DOES work! A few weeks ago researchers at Deflt University send information over three meters. http://www.tudelft.nl/en/current/latest-news/article/detail/beam-me-up-data/

To simplify the concept: When two particles are entangled if you change one from 'up' to 'down' it's counterpart will change from 'down' to 'up' no matter the distance. If 'up' represents 1 and 'down' 0 you have a method of transmitting binary code at incredible speed without any physical connection or signal loss over unlimited distance.

Back to the OP.

Soda Popinski is correct. What you're describing is the Fermi Paradox. If there are so many civilizations out there, why haven't we heard from them? The counterpart to the Drake Equation.

I'd suggest you start digging around at http://www.seti.org/ or even join Seti@Home help in the search.

[Rickenbacker]

Actually, quantum entanglement DOES work! A few weeks ago researchers at Deflt University send information over three meters. http://www.tudelft.nl/en/current/latest-news/article/detail/beam-me-up-data/

To simplify the concept: When two particles are entangled if you change one from 'up' to 'down' it's counterpart will change from 'down' to 'up' no matter the distance. If 'up' represents 1 and 'down' 0 you have a method of transmitting binary code at incredible speed without any physical connection or signal loss over unlimited distance.

I'm sure it does, I just don't understand why . But the Delft article you linked to seems to be talking about quantum teleportation, and no one is saying that's faster than the speed of light, only that it doesn't require any wiring or other transfer media. It does, however, require classical bits to be transferred, at the speed of light. So it'll probably lead to incredibly fast computers, but not to FTL communications.