[1.0.x] [V1.9f] Kerbal Foundries wheels, anti-grav repulsors and tracks

[B787_300]

Your log says you ran out of memory. You need fewer mods / smaller textures / ATM / whatever.

which is odd because I am running using DDSLoader, after sending all my game files through DDS4KSP, and removing tanks that i dont use. so unless KF is using HUGE files something is wrong. just as a side note, it was running just fine without KF with EVE and Astronomers Vis pack at Max resolution...

[Gaalidas]

Hey, lo-fi... this is from the latest release package on KerbalStuff, in the small track config:

MODULE
{
    name = KFWheel
    wheelName =[B] RoadWhee5[/B]
    colliderName = WC5
    sustravName = Link5
    steeringName = Link5
    isIdler = false
    hasSteering = false
    rotationCorrection = 1.5
    smoothSpeed = 40
    wheelRotationX = 0
    wheelRotationY = 0
    wheelRotationZ = 1
    susTravAxis = Y
}

Notice the bold item in the above code. Is this actually accurate, or am I detecting another typo here? Do we need to ban you from modding until you're completely sober or what?

[Tarheel1999]

Hey, lo-fi... this is from the latest release package on KerbalStuff, in the small track config:

MODULE
{
    name = KFWheel
    wheelName =[B] RoadWhee5[/B]
    colliderName = WC5
    sustravName = Link5
    steeringName = Link5
    isIdler = false
    hasSteering = false
    rotationCorrection = 1.5
    smoothSpeed = 40
    wheelRotationX = 0
    wheelRotationY = 0
    wheelRotationZ = 1
    susTravAxis = Y
}

Notice the bold item in the above code. Is this actually accurate, or am I detecting another typo here? Do we need to ban you from modding until you're completely sober or what?

Accurate. This change prevents the small track from throwing exceptions.

- - - Updated - - -

which is odd because I am running using DDSLoader, after sending all my game files through DDS4KSP, and removing tanks that i dont use. so unless KF is using HUGE files something is wrong. just as a side note, it was running just fine without KF with EVE and Astronomers Vis pack at Max resolution...

All of that is completely irrelevant if you were already riding the ragged edge. Looking at your logs you are running some RAM expensive mods. And it looks like you are loading both Squads and Ven's Models. Monitor your RAM usage during load with the Taskmanager or Sarbian's mod GCMonitor.

[lo-fi]

Yes, the new config is accurate.

The modules that run the tracks and wheels have a lot to do and store a lot of variables. If you're close to the limit, actually having wheels on a vessel may just tip things over the edge. The log says you ran out of memory, and there's an end to it, really. It's not just about textures - the plugin will consume memory when doing its job too, so its entirely plausible that actually running some wheels might tip thing over the edge, where just having them loaded won't.

[Gaalidas]

alright then, accurate it is. That's some weird object naming going on there.

[lo-fi]

Yeah, it was more effort to update the model than the config. Config won.

[Thorbane]

Has anyone else had FAR throw a fit when you try to place a Medium track?

[wasmic]

Just a quick PSA: do NOT attempt to add KASModuleGrab to the repulsors. They do not like it. Symptoms may include inability to function, camera moving far away from spacecraft and phantom forces working on your spacecraft.

[lo-fi]

Has anyone else had FAR throw a fit when you try to place a Medium track?

Not that I've had reported yet. What happens exactly, and is this just the medium track?

Just a quick PSA: do NOT attempt to add KASModuleGrab to the repulsors. They do not like it. Symptoms may include inability to function, camera moving far away from spacecraft and phantom forces working on your spacecraft.

I can't think quite why, but that sounds hilarious.

[The Space Man]

Has anyone else had FAR throw a fit when you try to place a Medium track?

Yes! I had that problem with the latest github version of FAR. Reverting to 14.6 fixed it for me.

Had a go at giving the long track the RBI Mark Three texture, since it's the only rbi track that didn't quite make it into Kerbalfoundries.

Download - https://www.dropbox.com/s/fwvd0qrr8tqftqs/RBIMarkThreeLongTrack.zip?dl=0

[lo-fi]

Interesting it's just the medium track. I wonder what's special about that.. I'd say bounds detection on the skinned mesh, but that would affect all tracks.

Nice texture!

[The Space Man]

The issue i had with FAR didn't just affect the medium track, or KF parts. I had the same issue with some of the ERS Rover parts, once you try to attach them FAR throws NRE errors.

@Thorbane, can you confirm if reverting to 14.6 fixed the issues like it did with me?

[Gaalidas]

Not that I've had reported yet. What happens exactly, and is this just the medium track?

I can't think quite why, but that sounds hilarious.

I think, at this point, it is best to just call it a "hidden feature" and back away... far away from that issue. I can only imagine, with much horror, what problems would arise when dealing with spawning and attaching KF wheels and repulsors to crafts after the flight scene has been fully initialized.

[Cyst]

I've ran into a strange occurrence, I'm not sure if it's a..."bug", a general change in KSP itself, or an intended addition.

It seems to me that these wheels and tracks have less friction than the stock wheels did in 0.23-0.25 (last time I played with KPS), which is not a problem on Kerbin (and other celestial bodies of similar gravity) but on the mun for example...

Noticed the same thing happens to smaller wheels and the biggest "mole" track, whether my craft is lightweight or a heavy a** beast.

On a 20° slope I could hardly stop, took me literally minutes, while merely turning makes my rovers continue to slide forwards.

What is it?

And is it possible for me to, I don't know, change the .cfg documents to increase the friction generated by these wheels?

These parts look so sweet I do not wish to trash the mod. =|

Thank you!

[lo-fi]

My opinion has always been that stock wheels had too much grip - which is why stock rovers flip over so readily - so I designed for what I felt was a reasonable amount of grip on Kerbin. Now, put the wheels on a very low gravity body like Mun and they'll slide, which is technically correct.

At this point, people normally say "yes, but NASA made their moon buggy work in low gravity", to which the answer is "but they didnt expect it to do 80 mph - more like 10 - which feels painfully slow in game". The grip model on Unity wheel colliders is poor to say the least, I'm afraid, which really does not help.

I may have messed up the grip of the mole track, which I'll look at, but I'm afraid there's no provision for modifying the grip either in game or config. Use the repulsors for low gravity, they're a far better option

[Cyst]

Haha! No... Repulsors are a no-go. Tried, ended up going at 100m/s without doing anything, uncontrollably sliding downhill. Though it's fun on planets with atmosphere, there I can equip the craft with winglets to...actually have control...

So... Yeah...

Back to useful things (^^): Wheelz and trackz. For safety reasons I do not go faster than 15m/s. Slow, but sipping coffe while Mechjeb does its job makes up for it. Anyway, that's 33.5something mph, not 80. If I would go that fast, I would understand that I don't stop right when I hit the brakes. Or turn when I want to. Or at all...

But again, a single slope on a low-gravity planet and the craft continues to slide uncontrollably, which is really no fun, it's frustrating. It is a reasonable amount on Kerbin, I agree, but not on the Mün for example. It's a pain on the Mün. My feels, man, my feels. =/

I don't suppose you want to add a "grip" slider to modify the wheels' grip the same way we can modify suspension, torque and such, or do you?

Do not want to tell you how to do your thing, but in my opinion it would be reasonable. Kerbals covering the wheels with glue for better grip... Yep, totally reasonable. ^^

Anyway, thank you for the quick response!

[lo-fi]

It's tricky. The problem really stems from the poor grip model on the wheel colliders. It's not too bad in what one might consider normal gravity, and you can sort of hack around the deficiencies, but up the grip in low gravity and all you'll get is rovers flipping over, which is frustrating and boring.

That being said, the problem is often torque rather than grip. Due to the digital nature of controls in the game, it is somewhat low to prevent disaster the first time you hit a key. Try increasing the torque slider and using the precision control mode - this will probably help far more than messing with the grip.

[Cyst]

I'm not an idiot (not that you assumed it), I've managed to maximize grip by setting suspension to maximum, spring strength to 2 and dampening to maximum as well, this way even turning the wheels have a better chance of staying on the ground in low-grav environment, instead of bouncing and flipping over and such. Current craft, your wheels (8 of the 2nd biggest) torque at .75 each, 10 m/s on the Mün, still takes 30+seconds to fully stop.

I might be a god when it comes to rovers because mine tend to stay on the ground, wheels down, even the stock ones. No flipping, at least not when it counts. I tend to test things first but that doesn't count, does it?

[Gaalidas]

Nope, nothing counts but complete perfection. Today is not your day, and tomorrow doesn't look good either.

...

No, honestly, lack of flippage would make you comparable to a god I believe. I think the issue with low gravity worlds is that while trying to stop, the reaction with the ground forces the craft to lift upward slightly. In high-gravity locations the craft will drop down immediately, and with an atmosphere you will also get drag from the air which forces the craft back down after this upward lift reaction occurs. On the Mun, however, there is no air-drag and the gravity is low enough that the craft lifts off the surface ever so slightly which decreases the effect that the grip of wheels would have on your forward momentum. This is not helped by the fact that brakes, in KSP, mean "lets slam down on them and try to stop as quickly as possible with no regard for safety." What you need is a braking system that slowly brings the craft to a stop so that the sudden jerking of the wheels doesn't cause miniscule airtime. I fear that with such low gravity, however, that might not help much. In this case, you may need some form of thrust to either help with braking, or simply increase the pressure on the wheels towards the ground. Alternatively, a dummy weight object might also help to keep things grounded, or a fuel tank which could be filled from a lander to add extra weight.

I'm also testing an old mod right now that added a part which could be used to implement an ABS system to a rover. In this case, it simply pulses the brake when activated until the vehicle comes to a complete stop. It's not exactly the most ideal solution, but it's an interesting take on the problem.

[ThorBeorn]

How could I have missed this mod!? This is fantastic stuff! Having a lot of fun just driving around KSC. I just imagine what can be done with KAS and Infernal Robotics

Just wanted to ask, the cockpit attached to the roverbody on the latest (?) youtube vid on the KF channel, where's that from?

Also The Space Man: Nice work on those textures. I also wonder where that truck/cockpit is from?

[The Space Man]

How could I have missed this mod!? This is fantastic stuff! Having a lot of fun just driving around KSC. I just imagine what can be done with KAS and Infernal Robotics

Just wanted to ask, the cockpit attached to the roverbody on the latest (?) youtube vid on the KF channel, where's that from?

Also The Space Man: Nice work on those textures. I also wonder where that truck/cockpit is from?

That'll be the ERS Rover http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/94947-Exploration-Rover-System-by-A-S-E-T-%2810-10-14%29

[lo-fi]

That sounds interesting, Gaalidas. Actually, if you want to play around with ABS, it's trivial to read the slip data from the wheel colliders. Look in the bulldozer blade class for how I access it.

It's from the excellent little Space Tug by nli2work, ThorBeorn: https://kerbalstuff.com/mod/408/Space%20Tug Could do with a tweak to the hatch placement to work perfectly with the rover body, but I think it makes a great rover cockpit. Glad you're having fun!

I'm messing about in an idle few minutes and came up with this, which I think is kinda cute:

[Darren9]

^ Are they on command seats or in a transparent cockpit? It's like the RollKage roll-cage but even better

[Gaalidas]

It looks like he custom-built a two-man command seat and shaped it like a roll-cage. If that is a transparent pod, it's the most transparent transparent pod I've ever not-seen. "Cute" is a good description of it, too.

As for ABS... honestly I want nothing to do with it at this moment. I'm having a heck of a time trying to get SharpDevelop to detect and compile for .net 3.5 instead of the only error-less option that i seem to have (version 4.0) so that my attempts at plugin writing aren't thwarted by the fact that KSP is built on and reacts best to version 3.5. It's not going well. Still, if the ABS-sorta-kinda-brake-pulsing plugin works pretty well, I may look into making it easier to integrate into a rover than having to put an ugly huge part on it. It'd be more "kerbal" to just stick a few super short-burning solid boosters (like those landertron mod thingers) on the front and fire them off when you need to stop moving. I think the landertron mod also had the ability to be re-fueled using tiny hex-cans on EVA, like reloading an old cannon by hand.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Gaalidas

[lo-fi]

At the moment they're just comand seats, but integrated into the cage, Darren. When I've got the design a little more fleshed out I'll do a proper IVA with JSI transparent pod so it can be crewed at launch, driven IVA, have props and all that shenanigans. Slow paced as I'm just dabbling and tinkering, but I think it'll turn into something quite cool. Inspiration is the tracked quad from Prometheus

What is going wrong when trying to target .net 3.5? Do you have the full (extended) framework installed?

The alternative is just install VS Express, I guess.