Mods which should be stock?

[cpast]

Just accept that a part that changes nothing for those that don`t use it is unreasonable to object to.

Why? Because you said so? By this logic, KSP can literally never be finished, as no part ever directly affects those who don't use it, and thus belongs in the game by this logic. What they do do is take up a large amount of development time, to design them, decide on their functionality, and balance everything. It also expands the part list that is seen by non-modders, making it just that tiny bit more confusing. It also can compromise the core idea of the game (you know, that part where the game has a central, guiding vision that should be generally preserved, because if you wanted a fully generic thing, download an assembler). Literally anything being added should first be checked to make sure it fits with the core idea of the game (this eliminates weapons, for instance), then be run through a cost-benefit analysis to ensure that it's really the best thing the devs could be doing with their time. If the devs implement a stock autopilot, there are other things they will not be able to implement (given that they likely want to finish KSP development in a reasonable amount of time, before they all get bored with it and want to move on). If something is optional, and doesn't have to be used by all players, how many actually will use it? How will it affect their experience? If most people wouldn't use a complicated feature, it's not worth the time to implement. If it changes their experience and moves the stock experience away from the one Squad wants to create, it shouldn't be implemented, period.

[mythic_fci]

I was saying that if an autopilot mod/feature were to be added; merge them, and take the best traits to create an ultimate autopilot for stock. (The basic functions of MechJeb, and the expandability of kOS)

Agreed. Maybe a modular autopilot with functions you could check and uncheck based on personal preference in the Settings menu would be nice, with functions like an optimal ascent finder (NOT an optimal ascent FLYER), a D/V calculator, and a docking indicator (NOT an auto-dock system).

[AlamoVampire]

Agreed. Maybe a modular autopilot with functions you could check and uncheck based on personal preference in the Settings menu would be nice, with functions like an optimal ascent finder (NOT an optimal ascent FLYER), a D/V calculator, and a docking indicator (NOT an auto-dock system).

Autopilot by its very own definition is an AUTOMATIC PILOT which is a device that has a flight computer perform the tasks a pilot would perform in normal operation of the aircraft or spacecraft in this case WITHOUT HUMAN MANIPULATION. Which explicity commands that upon activation the AUTOMATIC PILOT shall fly, maneuver and otherwise control the vehicle in question until such a time as the list of commands such as ascent, descent, rendezvous and docking have been achieved or the system has been manually disengaged or otherwise aborted by human intervention.

In short, it is a device that can launch, fly, rendezvous, dock, depart and land with simple instructions provided to the autopilot.

The docking cam is easier because it shows what you pointed at and that i think is better than lines that tell me nothing of obsticles in my way and only if im pointed right. DAI cost me a station while trying to dock iva. Why? It didnt tell me a solar array turned into my path. The camera could have SHOWN it.

The loss of the array caused a chain reaction similar to Gravity. Cool to see but frustration to see too

Edited July 6, 2014 by AlamoVampire

[Jouni]

That does not follow. There aren't two mutually exclusive competing ideas, both implemented, for how an alarm clock should work, for example. If there were, *then* arguing for including one in the stock game but not the other, like AlamoVampire did, would have the same problem.

What about rocket engines: should they be balanced for sandbox or career mode? Should jet engines be ridiculously powerful or somewhat realistic? Should planets be small or large? Should atmospheres be realistic or soupy? There's widespread disagreement on basically every feature of the game in the community, and often the alternatives are mutually exclusive. By your reasoning, Squad shouldn't implement either of them, so we wouldn't have planets, atmospheres, engines, fuel tanks or just about anything in the stock game.

[John FX]

Words... If it changes their experience and moves the stock experience away from the one Squad wants to create, it shouldn't be implemented, period.

Not because I said so, because it is true. Objecting to others doing or having something that does not affect you is not reasonable or defendable. Also everyone has paid for the game, not just some, so dev time is for everyone, not just the people who want certain features.

All your post becomes moot anyway if squad decides to do it. I also said it would not change the experience of someone not using it so half of your sentence is not based on my post.

We are not discussing whether squad will put stuff in the game of the mechanics of game design or a cost/benefit analysis of game design. We are not discussing whether implementation should happen.

We are proposing mods that we think should be stock. You have quoted me responding to someone disrupting the thread and rejecting all answers to their issues based on them wanting to keep their market share or something instead of "Will this feature enhance the game" which is still not what we are discussing here.

Can we keep to the thread please and post the mods you think should be stock...

EDIT :

What about rocket engines: should they be balanced for sandbox or career mode? Should jet engines be ridiculously powerful or somewhat realistic? Should planets be small or large? Should atmospheres be realistic or soupy? There's widespread disagreement on basically every feature of the game in the community, and often the alternatives are mutually exclusive. By your reasoning, Squad shouldn't implement either of them, so we wouldn't have planets, atmospheres, engines, fuel tanks or just about anything in the stock game.

Exactly. SM is arguing against something he feels will damage the popularity of his mod or make it obsolete, not from the viewpoint of making the game better. This is why his argument does not stand up to scrutiny. There is no valid reason to object to something that would not affect you but would benefit others.

The simple solution is to make the autopilot part sit later in the tech tree so the user has had to fly enough missions by hand that they are able to sensibly make the decision whether to let the computer take over some tasks or not. Then this pleases the "You should learn to do everything manually` crowd and the `I get bored doing the same things over and over by hand and want some automation` crowd.

Now, can we get back to listing the mods we would like in the stock game?

Edited July 6, 2014 by John FX

[Javster]

Then this pleases the "You should learn to do everything manually` crowd and the `I get bored doing the same things over and over by hand and want some automation` crowd.

Now, can we get back to listing the mods we would like in the stock game?

Seems like the best way to do it.

Now, to avoid being a hypocrite :

I definitely think that the various APIs should be added to the game. AFAIK it doesn't affect the game itself, so they don't have to integrate it fully with their own code (causing problems) and it would help modders hugely. Clearly they care about modding (if they didn't the game would have fallen on its face IMO) as they changed the file system in 0.20 so each mod could have an individual folder, instead of merging the mod files with Squad files.

Oh, and guys? Who rated the thread one star?

RETALIATE! VOTE IT 5 STARS! (Please do, I don't see anything wrong with the thread)

[robopilot99]

RLA stockalike

KAC

KER

Enhanced navball

Enhanced resources pannel

[Hodo]

This thread has been done before, about every 90 days since I have been here.

Same as before for me.

FAR

DRE

KER/MJ build information data.

[AlamoVampire]

This thread has been done before, about every 90 days since I have been here.

<snip>

and it will keep being done again and again. I dont think we can help ourselves honestly lol. We love our speculations and our debates and our ideas

[mythic_fci]

Sure! Autopilot talk aside, repeating what I said earlier:

NavyFish Docking Alignment Indicator (Hopefully this would replace the normal navball when targeting a docking port)

RLA Stockalike

Remaining parts of KSPX (ClairaLyrae's been hired by Squad already so this shouldn't take long)

Kerbal Engineer (A version that instead blends into the KSP UI instead of being a window)

[AlamoVampire]

gonna say it again, Navyfish's Docking Alignment Indicator is not your best bet for a docking aid. For example, you have either of these stations, and yes they are tight quartered and have narrow points of access:

OR

the DAI shows ONLY if you are on the right path into the port. which is fine if you have plenty of ROOM. BUT, Romfarers Lazor Docking Camera is a better bet. Why? Because its a CAMERA. It shows you in real time how you are approaching and what it is EXACTLY you are aimed at. I TRIED DAI ONCE, and thank GOD I had a quicksave to revert to! I had decided to swap crew on that second station and one of the Solar Arrays decided it wanted a better view of the sun. I didnt see it move, and WHAM, right into it. The impact sent the ship ragdoll style into the station and the station suffered a fatal loss of solar arrays. Had I had my camera on, I would have seen the shift and been able to cope with it. Suffice to say, a camera is better than a vague group of lines. My OPINION.

[Ruedii]

I personally think that the better aerodynamics in FAR should be stock. When this is done, we need some sort of fairings and/or cargo bays in stock.

Other things that should be stock are the "grab" and "attach" functions of KAS. (I don't think the winches are necessarily needed.)

Obviously some of the more tweakable mods should have their tweakable options added to stock.

We always can use larger rocket parts, especially now that the rubber-rocket issue has been tamed.

We also could use a bigger selection of probe engines. This is similar to the ones in RLA Stockalike.

We also need bigger wings, control fins and jet engines. Also, high-bypass turbofan engines with lower fuel usage in exchange for requiring much more intake air. The current turbofan should be listed as a high-compression low-bypass turbofan, since it behaves like one anyway.

As of parts that I don't know if any mods have not been built yet, realistic nuclear engines would be nice (ones that JUST use liquid fuel.)

Edited July 7, 2014 by Ruedii
additional items.

[Jouni]

the DAI shows ONLY if you are on the right path into the port. which is fine if you have plenty of ROOM. BUT, Romfarers Lazor Docking Camera is a better bet. Why? Because its a CAMERA. It shows you in real time how you are approaching and what it is EXACTLY you are aimed at.

I understand that the Lazor Docking Camera could be useful, if you dock from IVA or the map view. Otherwise we already have much better camera view available, so I prefer the cleaner display of the Docking Port Alignment Indicator.

[AlamoVampire]

I understand that the Lazor Docking Camera could be useful, if you dock from IVA or the map view. Otherwise we already have much better camera view available, so I prefer the cleaner display of the Docking Port Alignment Indicator.

for me, its the visual of seeing what it is my "nose" in most cases is aimed at. Also its the whole: I can see what I am heading at thing" that makes me such an avid proponent of Docking Cam opposed to DAI

[Dunbaratu]

Exactly. SM is arguing against something he feels will damage the popularity of his mod or make it obsolete, not from the viewpoint of making the game better. This is why his argument does not stand up to scrutiny.

Honest people know your characterization of my motivation is incorrect because they can read the thread and see that where we disagree is over the very point of whether or not the inclusion of the mod will affect other people or not. You can disagree with me all you want on that, and that's fine, but when you tried finding other more selfish motivations for my stance, instead of actually believing my claim that I don't agree with you about that premise, you stepped across the line into trolling. Disagreeing with me about my claim that it would affect other people is fine. Pretending I agree with you about that premise, so that you can ascribe other motivations instead to why I don't agree, is not.

So I've had my say on it, and I'm done. Alamovampire was derailing the thread back when he first suggested including Mechjeb and rejecting kOS in a thread who's first post explicitly said not to talk about mechjeb, so I shouldn't have risen to the bait.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Steven Mading

[Hodo]

gonna say it again, Navyfish's Docking Alignment Indicator is not your best bet for a docking aid. For example, you have either of these stations, and yes they are tight quartered and have narrow points of access:

http://i.imgur.com/y74OZOp.png

OR

http://i.imgur.com/c7G1jrD.png

the DAI shows ONLY if you are on the right path into the port. which is fine if you have plenty of ROOM. BUT, Romfarers Lazor Docking Camera is a better bet. Why? Because its a CAMERA. It shows you in real time how you are approaching and what it is EXACTLY you are aimed at. I TRIED DAI ONCE, and thank GOD I had a quicksave to revert to! I had decided to swap crew on that second station and one of the Solar Arrays decided it wanted a better view of the sun. I didnt see it move, and WHAM, right into it. The impact sent the ship ragdoll style into the station and the station suffered a fatal loss of solar arrays. Had I had my camera on, I would have seen the shift and been able to cope with it. Suffice to say, a camera is better than a vague group of lines. My OPINION.

Then you are using DAI wrong, simple as that. I have made stations very much like the second one, and I use DAI and have had no problems docking some of my largest craft to them.

I am not saying that Lazor docking cam is bad, no it is great, but DAI is just as good and is quite a small plugin.

[John FX]

Honest people know your characterization of my motivation is incorrect because they can read the thread and see that where we disagree is over the very point of whether or not the inclusion of the mod will affect other people or not. You can disagree with me all you want on that, and that's fine, but when you tried finding other more selfish motivations for my stance, instead of actually believing my claim that I don't agree with you about that premise, you stepped across the line into trolling. Disagreeing with me about my claim that it would affect other people is fine. Pretending I agree with you about that premise, so that you can ascribe other motivations instead to why I don't agree, is not.

So I've had my say on it, and I'm done. Alamovampire was derailing the thread back when he first suggested including Mechjeb and rejecting kOS in a thread who's first post explicitly said not to talk about mechjeb, so I shouldn't have risen to the bait.

I`ll reply to the implied accusation of dishonesty. I bite.

Bundling kills the competition. Anyone who thinks it doesn't is unaware of the history of computing.

Yeah, let's just ruin the fun of those people who do like kOS by putting another autopilot in its way as the stock standard.

This is your stated reason. Nothing to do with gameplay or balance or affecting the game of someone in a negative way. You don`t want something bundled with stock that could affect your mod or make people choose another option because it comes bundled with the game. You don`t object to automation per se or using the memory for an automation part (or you would not be the dev on an automation mod) so your objection must be different to that. Imagine the `subassembly loader` guy or the `docking port` guy having the same attitude. they were glad to see their mods adopted as stock.

The inclusion of a stock AP does not exclude people from using KOS, that is simply not true. It is dishonest to state that as it is a false dichotomy.

It`s selfish to want to affect the options available in game to others to avoid yourself or your mod being affected in the community.

I come from the position that the in-game experience of people would not be affected by the addition of an optional part, yours is that the inclusion of that part would affect people outside of the game (mod popularity etc) which is not relevant to gameplay but the community instead (and your or your mods importance or relevance within it)

memory usage from loading parts you do not personally use is a very weak argument and can be ignored. With 64 bit being released with 0.24, even the limited memory usage argument is moot.

I assume for the sake of discussion that any of the things we say we would like in the game would be implemented in a suitable manner as SQUAD have shown a track record of balancing new features and implementing them in a sensible manner. I trust SQUAD to continue in the future in the way they have shown themselves to be in the past.

As someone said, why not have some mechjeb features included as scripts in a script based ship control part? Of course, every little detail YOU would require may not be included and YOU would not be the dev of stock scripting and YOU would lose control over it but overall players would benefit and have the best of both worlds.

If a scripted autopilot was implemented in stock so everyone could have the best of both worlds you would still object because you think people would stop using KOS...

Yeah, let's just ruin the fun of those people who do like kOS by putting another autopilot in its way as the stock standard.

The added benefit of tech support for stock features is not to be underestimated either.

You would deny *any* stock implementation of an autopilot, scripted or otherwise because

Bundling kills the competition.

And you see yourself in that `competition`. You think it would kill your mod. THAT is your objection (as quoted), that you think people would not use KOS if there were a stock autopilot.

Unless you can show your objection is based on something other than protecting your own mod I`ll keep my opinion. Simply saying you would prefer people to choose between your mod and other mods rather than have a stock implementation is no argument and IS selfish. "But... but... my MOD!"

I`ll not put words into the mouths of `honest people` and claim what they would think on their behalf, rather I`ll just say that those `honest people` you mention will draw the *correct* conclusion from reading the thread and the posts it contains...

Whether SQUAD will implement an autopilot is another matter, personally I don`t think they will (they have said they won`t) but your logic is specious and needed correcting (someone is WRONG on the internet, hehe)

Now, if as you say you`ll not post again on the matter it will not get mentioned again.

To get back on topic.

I`d like to see KerbCam implemented as stock for all the video makers out there.

[sal_vager]

John FX, Steven Mading, the moderation team would appreciate it if you both didn't add to the workload today, and I'm sure many members would also prefer to see more discussion about addons in this thread and not your attitude towards one another

[TNM]

i'm surprised so few mention "deadly reentry". If i could only choose one right now it would be that one.

If its accepted that its difficult to "get to space", why is it not equally accepted that its difficult to "get back from space". I'm still baffled its not stock, even more so if you factor in they put much emphasis to show reentry effects (burning)...

[JDCollie]

Precise Node!

Mostly utility mods in general such as RCS Balancer, Fusebox, Docking Alignment Indicator, Kerbal Engineer, etc. Basically mods that give us more information or more control over our game experience really should be in the game.

I wouldn't mind SQUAD adaptations of FAR, TAC Life Support, and Deadly Re-entry either, of course.

Edited July 9, 2014 by JDCollie