[24.2] Karbonite Ongoing Dev and Discussion

[Agathorn]

So to answer both of these Bear in mind I would already have MKS/OKS's Minerals, Ore (also used by EL), Substrate, and Water. So we start at four, plus Karbonite being the new fuel based one in the box. And since this is nice and open, I leave it as an exercise for other people to extend, change, and improve this as they see fit

So someone may just want Karbonite on it's own to replace Kethane, or they may choose to add a mod that adds a half dozen new parts and resources, or maybe they add that plus MKS for more stuff... either way, with restrictive licensing removed it means people can get creative and have fun.

Yeah I think the key is keep it open so its very easy for another mod to "extend" it in a seamless way to add new resource gameplay. If you do that they you're golden And ORS pretty much handles most of that for you anyway.

[Angelo Kerman]

So to answer both of these Bear in mind I would already have MKS/OKS's Minerals, Ore (also used by EL), Substrate, and Water. So we start at four, plus Karbonite being the new fuel based one in the box. And since this is nice and open, I leave it as an exercise for other people to extend, change, and improve this as they see fit

So someone may just want Karbonite on it's own to replace Kethane, or they may choose to add a mod that adds a half dozen new parts and resources, or maybe they add that plus MKS for more stuff... either way, with restrictive licensing removed it means people can get creative and have fun.

I could see adding blutonium for a nuclear engine I'm working on. Gonna enjoy this new mod of yours.

[RoverDude]

I could see adding blutonium for a nuclear engine I'm working on. Gonna enjoy this new mod of yours.

Awesome! I truely hope that once done it catches on, and becomes the go-to for resources. ORS deserves a lot more love than it gets right now

[komodo]

Carbonate has the chemical formula (CH3)-2, which means that it's a molecular ion; it forms ionic salts such as Ammonium Carbonate. "Carbonite" doesn't exist; it's a trademark for a backup company. Quite frankly, it won't make a fuel, although you could harvest other ions from Carbonate materials that are of various uses. (KH3)-2 would work, although it would make more sense to say that you're harvesting fuels from "Karbonite based salts/materials."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonate

CO₃^-2, I think you mean, from the wikipedia page itself. (Thus, the insane corollary KO₃^-2 of course)

Actually, KO₃ does in fact exist, as a neutral species at that; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozonide. A relevant quote: "They are very sensitive explosives that have to be handled at low temperatures in an atmosphere consisting of an inert gas."

...

Sounds pretty Kerbal to me.

(Source: Self=chemist.)

(Although, Mihara's formula does sound much tastier by far )

[ragzilla]

CO₃^-2, I think you mean, from the wikipedia page itself. (Thus, the insane corollary KO₃^-2 of course)

Actually, KO₃ does in fact exist, as a neutral species at that; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozonide. A relevant quote: "They are very sensitive explosives that have to be handled at low temperatures in an atmosphere consisting of an inert gas."

...

Sounds pretty Kerbal to me.

(Source: Self=chemist.)

(Although, Mihara's formula does sound much tastier by far )

Sure you've seen this guy's blog before, but Things I Won't Work With: Ozonides. Overall his blog is a fantastic place to find inspiration for Kerbal appropriate compounds.

[Raven.]

CO₃^-2, I think you mean, from the wikipedia page itself. (Thus, the insane corollary KO₃^-2 of course)

Exactly, didn't know how to format it. And the compound you link to does look very promising.

[passinglurker]

Along the thought of pulling karbonite from the atmosphere I'd like to toss in the suggestion of being able to put a satellite near the edge of a planets atmosphere (within say... 1k meters or less?) to slowly accumulate karbonite gas in the back ground while you do something else with the balance being a massive power cost and perpetual fear of the kracken or jebs piloting accidentally nudging the fuel depot in for reentry with a full tank of highly volatile and explosive fuel.

[Tenebrais]

I'm enthusiastic about this! I wish there was something I could do to contribute, but I don't really have the modding chops to help.

Is your plan for the default mod to mimic Kethane in one resource being convertible into all fuels? And will Karbonite include any of the MKS resources, even if they're not useful with the mod alone? Those four make a good baseline for a resource system for pretty much anything; it'd be great to see them catch on as a standard.

Will Karbonite include unique contracts? Mine resources from specific planetary bodies, possibly using the aforementioned MKS resources so you have to consider different landing spots?

I look forward to combining MKS, Karbonite and EL into one awesome space base combo.

RoverDude, you are probably my favourite modder at the moment. By my reckoning you've got a good handle on the balance between simplicity and complexity. I'm sure you can make this mod great.

[Mihara]

Along the thought of pulling karbonite from the atmosphere I'd like to toss in the suggestion of being able to put a satellite near the edge of a planets atmosphere (within say... 1k meters or less?) to slowly accumulate karbonite gas in the back ground while you do something else with the balance being a massive power cost and perpetual fear of the kracken or jebs piloting accidentally nudging the fuel depot in for reentry with a full tank of highly volatile and explosive fuel.

That sounds interesting and would be a good idea, but wouldn't actually work, because inactive vessels are unaffected by atmosphere everywhere above destruction pressure altitude. (which causes them to instantly get deleted as soon as they're out of physics range from the active vessel)

[SpaceCowboy]

Exactly, didn't know how to format it. And the compound you link to does look very promising.

There is, actually, a carbonite ion: [CO₂]^2-. It sounds like it is not as reactive as carbonate, though it does turn into carbonate around oxygen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydroxymethylidene

[passinglurker]

That sounds interesting and would be a good idea, but wouldn't actually work, because inactive vessels are unaffected by atmosphere everywhere above destruction pressure altitude. (which causes them to instantly get deleted as soon as they're out of physics range from the active vessel)

Its actually a real concept http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propulsive_fluid_accumulator

And I'm actually suggesting putting them above the atmosphere(so I should have said within 1k meters or less above the atmo) but this is merely due to the limits of the game.

[komodo]

Sure you've seen this guy's blog before, but Things I Won't Work With: Ozonides. Overall his blog is a fantastic place to find inspiration for Kerbal appropriate compounds.

Indeed, a good recollection, that one!

..BOOM!

[TeddyDD]

His (Majiir) license is against the rules of github.com You can safely ignore it. You have the right to fork the repository and do with it what you want. Enjoy.

[Boamere]

So what I'm interested in is this mod Majiir included and what he did, can anyone tell me? I do like a bit of controversy

[ragzilla]

His (Majiir) license is against the rules of github.com You can safely ignore it. You have the right to fork the repository and do with it what you want. Enjoy.

Please do not spread that nonsense. GitHub's terms of use allow you to fork the repository for personal use. It does not give you any rights to the content of that repository (other than to modify it for personal use). The original copyright holder (in Kethane's case Majiir) still owns rights to the materials in the repository unless he has granted them to you through license.

It's free as in beer, not free as in speech.

[Mihara]

And I'm actually suggesting putting them above the atmosphere(so I should have said within 1k meters or less above the atmo) but this is merely due to the limits of the game.

I noticed. What I meant to say is that dipping deep enough for an unexpected reentry would be very unlikely.

[ndiver]

And why not some clathrates hydrates ?

[cpast]

His (Majiir) license is against the rules of github.com You can safely ignore it. You have the right to fork the repository and do with it what you want. Enjoy.

It is not; "fork" on Github means the Github fork button, which just makes a copy, and does not imply the right to do diddly-squat with the stuff in the repository. You cannot make derivative works from restrictively-licensed Github projects, except in situations where copyright law would not apply in the first place (e.g. fair use).

[ragzilla]

So what I'm interested in is this mod Majiir included and what he did, can anyone tell me? I do like a bit of controversy

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/87412-Modstatistics-Issues/

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/87084-Squad-please-clarify-your-official-stance-on-the-ModStatistics-controvery/

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/81764-ModStatistics-1-0-3-Anonymous-mod-usage-statistics-Now-for-public-distribution/

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/86961-0-24-BetterThanSpyware-Still-not-as-good-as-Opt-In/

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/87111-0-24-StillBetterThanSpyware-A-mod-to-disable-ModStatistics/

http://www.reddit.com/r/KerbalSpaceProgram/comments/2b7f1z/stillbetterthanspyware_a_mod_to_disable/

The reddit link has some quick summaries, included the others for completeness.

[Ratzap]

Great stuff. I put threw together an ORS for fuel config in half an hour a few weeks ago and used some welded models. So much is already available, wrapping it up nicely and making the gameplay good are the challenges. But it fits in so nicely to your base stuff to be able to get fuel etc, I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

[ragzilla]

His (Majiir) license is against the rules of github.com You can safely ignore it. You have the right to fork the repository and do with it what you want. Enjoy.

And a Github reference: https://help.github.com/articles/open-source-licensing#what-happens-if-i-dont-choose-a-license

[TeddyDD]

Please do not spread that nonsense. GitHub's terms of use allow you to fork the repository for personal use. It does not give you any rights to the content of that repository (other than to modify it for personal use). The original copyright holder (in Kethane's case Majiir) still owns rights to the materials in the repository unless he has granted them to you through license.

It's free as in beer, not free as in speech.

Yeah, but then everyone can fork your modified repo from you and then there is a conflict with the rules of github.

Anyway I guess you're right. Propably I interpreted it wrong. Too bad.

In any case, I support this initiative. In my view, closed mods have no chance to survive in the long run.

[JeffreyCor]

This is a great idea! I'd love to have a ORS alternative to Kethane and realy hope EL supports it in a future version as well

[RoverDude]

Along the thought of pulling karbonite from the atmosphere I'd like to toss in the suggestion of being able to put a satellite near the edge of a planets atmosphere (within say... 1k meters or less?) to slowly accumulate karbonite gas in the back ground while you do something else with the balance being a massive power cost and perpetual fear of the kracken or jebs piloting accidentally nudging the fuel depot in for reentry with a full tank of highly volatile and explosive fuel.

Possible, but not day one - there would be code involved. Rest assured once I get the initial scrappy release out there (and I want *something* out there in a matter of days), I will start logging enhancement requests, or hope that folks contribute/fork/or do awesomeness.

I'm enthusiastic about this! I wish there was something I could do to contribute, but I don't really have the modding chops to help.

Is your plan for the default mod to mimic Kethane in one resource being convertible into all fuels? And will Karbonite include any of the MKS resources, even if they're not useful with the mod alone? Those four make a good baseline for a resource system for pretty much anything; it'd be great to see them catch on as a standard.

Will Karbonite include unique contracts? Mine resources from specific planetary bodies, possibly using the aforementioned MKS resources so you have to consider different landing spots?

I look forward to combining MKS, Karbonite and EL into one awesome space base combo.

RoverDude, you are probably my favourite modder at the moment. By my reckoning you've got a good handle on the balance between simplicity and complexity. I'm sure you can make this mod great.

Mimic behavior of Kethane plus include MKS resources along for the ride since they also cover EL. Contracts are not for launch, but you never know.

Its actually a real concept http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propulsive_fluid_accumulator

And I'm actually suggesting putting them above the atmosphere(so I should have said within 1k meters or less above the atmo) but this is merely due to the limits of the game.

Noodling - but not for the first pass

And no, no desire to fork Kethane, all licensing aside (which is very real). I want a nice, clean, friendly, open licensed competitor to give folks more choice, and to let people modify, extend, share, retexture, and enhance as they please (and then I can pull in all of the best bits and make stock Karbonite even better).

[Nertea]

PLEASE!!! I would be incredibly grateful! I can already use BahamutoD's drills since those are CC licensed, and stock dishes as detectors for starters.. so I'd just need a few more parts to do a scrappy startup version - figure a tank, a converter, a jet engine, an atmospheric scoop, and something to suck Karbonite out of oceans and we're golden. Let me know what parts you can do and how soon

I'd ideally like to make a full set at some point, but yeah I could knock those out in maybe a week. Just give me part specs (eg. 2.5m inline as high as the large monoprop tank) and I'll mock up some models tomorrow.