[24.2] Karbonite Ongoing Dev and Discussion

[Wren]

Be careful - you may break something horribly

Need to see if this is a KSP converter bug or what... humor me and see what it does if you add fuel pipes.

There's about 50/50 on either side for this one. My inclination at the moment is to include it, given the tremendous amount of mass you will lose doing it.

I believe it is usually 1ppm in atmosphere, so very hard to obtain. I'm all for leaving it out and having an add on or something that has it's own collector and converter, perhaps one that can even just use air as it's intake.

[Mutifex]

Just for the sake of the debate. My personal opinion on the xenon/argon/etc thing is that I'd love to see a way implemented to collect them, however I am totally cool with it being via atmospheric intakes etc., rather than from the converter. To be honest, I think the more things you allow Karbonite to be converted into, the more potentially cheesy and/or gamey it gets. Additionally I like that atmospheric collection would add a new type of gameplay to resource gathering that is potentially more than deploy drill and time accelerate.

[jesjhoward]

Be careful - you may break something horribly

Yea, ORS doesn't like it when you muck around in there, lol. I'm sure what I'm trying is doable, but it's outside of my scope atm. I'll get some simpler mods running first.

[Hitokiri]

Need to see if this is a KSP converter bug or what... humor me and see what it does if you add fuel pipes.

From where? Directly from Convertor or from tank that it work?

[RoverDude]

From where? Directly from Convertor or from tank that it work?

Pipes from your stack tank to your radial ones. the fuel pipe thingies.

[Edminster]

To be honest, I think the more things you allow Karbonite to be converted into, the more potentially gamey it gets.

Because god forbid this videogame get gamey

For what it's worth I think you should definitely be able to convert Karbonite to Xenon or whatever but at the tradeoff of being incredibly inefficient with air scoops being incredibly efficient. I'm not sure how to represent that gameplay-wise though as how would the converter know whether Karbonite was scooped up through drills or through scoops? The only thing that leaps to mind immediately is have scoops produce straight Xenon in addition to Karbonite, but that feels inelegant.

[RoverDude]

Because god forbid this videogame get gamey

For what it's worth I think you should definitely be able to convert Karbonite to Xenon or whatever but at the tradeoff of being incredibly inefficient with air scoops being incredibly efficient. I'm not sure how to represent that gameplay-wise though as how would the converter know whether Karbonite was scooped up through drills or through scoops? The only thing that leaps to mind immediately is have scoops produce straight Xenon in addition to Karbonite, but that feels inelegant.

Incredibly easy with ORS tbh. Unlike Kethane, ORS has full support for oceanic and atmospheric resource collection.

[Liowen]

I know it is not a top priority at this moment, but action groups, or landing gear control functionality, would be great. I had a problem getting the landing gear with a right click and scrapped a mission to Mun in the process. Another thing I have noticed is there seem to be a phantom force when the legs are extended causing the craft to spiral out of control, but this random so I am not sure if it is a design problem, Unity problem, or something else. Here is the Craft file of what I have been using for testing, nothing overly fancy but it works....sometimes. I am using the most up to date version, unless there is an update while I write this , and .24.2 mod free (exception being Karbonite of course).

[jfjohnny5]

So on account of I'm a huge fan of "scope creep" (when it's not my project ) has any thought been given to this mod evolving into something similar to what the devs originally teased for resources? It seems like with all the work going into the extractors and converters, along with the ORS integration, that creating a more "complicated" resource structure is entirely possible. Just wondering where it sits on the radar (if anywhere). And please, don't come at me with the "angry developer" stick. I have my own one of those at work.

[Sufficient Anonymity]

There's about 50/50 on either side for this one. My inclination at the moment is to include it, given the tremendous amount of mass you will lose doing it.

If it's really inefficient, I suppose that'd make sense (Xe present as an impurity in what's being mined and so the converter can pull out tiny quantities of it) - could probably have some fun with the descriptions too...

"Ventrally mounted drill: The chaps over at exploration and development assure us this drill just extracts Karbonite. We're pretty sure it sucks up all sorts of other gloop too. Whatever it does exactly, the converters they supplied seem to cope though."

[Beale]

Really am intrigued by this.

Giving it a go now.

With potential collection from the sea and atmosphere it feels a bit more like the "original" plan for resources.

One question (well I'll find out soon enough), but how does the scanning interface work currently? Is it like the old Kethane 2D window displaying a resource map of the planet?

Ex.

[Carcharhinidae]

So on account of I'm a huge fan of "scope creep" (when it's not my project ) has any thought been given to this mod evolving into something similar to what the devs originally teased for resources? It seems like with all the work going into the extractors and converters, along with the ORS integration, that creating a more "complicated" resource structure is entirely possible. Just wondering where it sits on the radar (if anywhere). And please, don't come at me with the "angry developer" stick. I have my own one of those at work.

I'm certainly planning to use this mod to make a much more complicated resource system, but i'm not going to have the time in the next few weeks.

my plan however was to have several different forms of karbonite out there (gaseous, crystlline, liquid at least) with different conditions under which they could occur and different uses. maybe treat karbonite a bit like the manganese nodules theyre using in some of the deep-sea mining plans.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Carcharhinidae

[john1978]

what colour does karbinite show on satmap pls?

[RoverDude]

I know it is not a top priority at this moment, but action groups, or landing gear control functionality, would be great. I had a problem getting the landing gear with a right click and scrapped a mission to Mun in the process. Another thing I have noticed is there seem to be a phantom force when the legs are extended causing the craft to spiral out of control, but this random so I am not sure if it is a design problem, Unity problem, or something else. Here is the Craft file of what I have been using for testing, nothing overly fancy but it works....sometimes. I am using the most up to date version, unless there is an update while I write this , and .24.2 mod free (exception being Karbonite of course).

No worries, I'm seriously considering switching out the LGM for a fairing cage with an external collider to mount stuff too. The existing one is MKS-like, but not MKS compatible anyway due to the need for longer landing legs.

So on account of I'm a huge fan of "scope creep" (when it's not my project ) has any thought been given to this mod evolving into something similar to what the devs originally teased for resources? It seems like with all the work going into the extractors and converters, along with the ORS integration, that creating a more "complicated" resource structure is entirely possible. Just wondering where it sits on the radar (if anywhere). And please, don't come at me with the "angry developer" stick. I have my own one of those at work.

Out of the box, scope is pretty strict at one resource. It's easier to allow people to extend than to put the proverbial toothpaste back in the tube if we add more resources.

If it's really inefficient, I suppose that'd make sense (Xe present as an impurity in what's being mined and so the converter can pull out tiny quantities of it) - could probably have some fun with the descriptions too...

"Ventrally mounted drill: The chaps over at exploration and development assure us this drill just extracts Karbonite. We're pretty sure it sucks up all sorts of other gloop too. Whatever it does exactly, the converters they supplied seem to cope though."

I'm down with it. Another thought is just use different converters - make a monoprop/xe converter and a LF/Ox converter as separate bits, just because if we're not careful the screen will get way too busy.

Really am intrigued by this.

Giving it a go now.

With potential collection from the sea and atmosphere it feels a bit more like the "original" plan for resources.

One question (well I'll find out soon enough), but how does the scanning interface work currently? Is it like the old Kethane 2D window displaying a resource map of the planet?

Ex.

http://puu.sh/auEHM/abba9cd41b.jpg

Straight out of the box ORS, plus SCANSat support with the dev build. For now. I have clever ideas for overlays but done in an ORS way not a Kethane way. It will be glorious but I can't even touch it till my other mods are caught up and Karbonite is out the door with release 0.1.0. I want the latter to happen this week.

I'm certainly planning to use this mod to make a much more complicated resource system, but i'm not going to have the time in the next few weeks.

my plan however was to have several different forms of karbonite out there (gaseous, crystlline, liquid at least) with different conditions under which they could occur and different uses. maybe treat karbonite a bit like the manganese nodules theyre using in some of the deep-sea mining plans.

Excellent. Honestly, anything ORS based is going to be easy as pie to integrate, and there are tons of CC models out there. The entire intent is extensibility, and in the longer haul, to selectively pull back bits into the core product.

Side note - the electric charging generator code sent to me by AshIzat is downright glorious. Probably the best generator concept I've seen in a while.

[sidfu]

roverdude on the problem with the base why dont design some awsome landing legs that could support it. well i had little problems with the leg base but for that gap that is between the drill and the tank are in it. u could problay leave it if u combined a drill and a small tank and make it 1 part for that and have it a lesser drill.

fyi the new community fix for kas actualy works.

Edited July 28, 2014 by sidfu

[Boomerang]

Just my two cents on the xenon issue: If this was being made specifically for my tastes, I'd like to see the converter produce only LF/Ox and monoprop. Keep xenon as an atmospheric resource or one that you just have to ship in from Kerbin.

But, since people do want xenon produced from the converter, I've got no problem just making a few cuts to that part's cfg file and removing the option, as long as it's that simple.

[Targa]

Have done some (actually many hours) of testing regarding some of the issues posted in this thread. Here are the results:

Regarding using KAS connection pipes: These pipes will automatically transfer Karbonite to remotely connected Karbonite fuel tanks. They will not automatically transfer LF/OX/MP. I suspect that they transfer Karbonite because the game engine wasn't designed to take Karbonite into account. Normally, the KAS pipes require the player to manually transfer resources via right-click and alt+right-click, so this is working as expected.

Regarding automatically filling MP tanks: I mounted a MP tank out on the end of a modular girder segment, so it was considered "attached" to the ship, yet it had no direct connection to the Karbonite Converter, nor was it in any way stacked with the Converter. Like all MP tanks/thrusters, the game considers fuel connections to be "implied" (none required). I had no issues filling this MP tank by activating the Converter.

Regarding the Converter not filling LF/OX tanks that are not stacked with the Converter: The Converter has no issues filling tanks that are considered to be part of the propulsion system of a craft. In other words, if you use fuel lines to connect outboard fuel tanks to your main engine tank(s), no matter where the converter is located on the ship, it will fill any fuel tank that the game considers to be providing fuel for your main engines. In this respect end-users need to understand that fuel being consumed by engines flows with the arrows on the yellow fuel lines. Refueling however flows against the arrows on the fuel lines. Therefore if you wish to make a fuel line connection directly from the Converter to a fuel tank, the arrows should be pointing toward the Converter.

[Doctor Axel]

Interested in what's happening here. ^^

Since this thread grew very quickly into tl;dr territory, just for clarification - is this more or less going to function the way Kethane functions now? Has there been any discussion about integrating Karbonite scanning into ScanSAT?

I know I'm not the only one who's interested in how other mods can use this... (two of which rhyme with "HAC Bife Nupport" and "Pextraplanetary Spaunchpads")

[Boomerang]

Interested in what's happening here. ^^

Since this thread grew very quickly into tl;dr territory, just for clarification - is this more or less going to function the way Kethane functions now? Has there been any discussion about integrating Karbonite scanning into ScanSAT?

I know I'm not the only one who's interested in how other mods can use this... (two of which rhyme with "HAC Bife Nupport" and "Pextraplanetary Spaunchpads")

You need the dev version of SCANSat here:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/80661-DEV-SCANsat-v7-0rc2-4-Real-Scanning-Real-Science-at-Warp-Speed!-Jun-17

Has Karbonite integration

[Doctor Axel]

You need the dev version of SCANSat here:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/80661-DEV-SCANsat-v7-0rc2-4-Real-Scanning-Real-Science-at-Warp-Speed!-Jun-17

Has Karbonite integration

Dag, yo. =D Consider me sold.

[AshIzat]

Side note - the electric charging generator code sent to me by AshIzat is downright glorious. Probably the best generator concept I've seen in a while.

I've been doing some more playing around with it and there are still a few issue that need working out. for example on the top two levels of time warp it still drains your karbonite (rather quickly) even if you have other forms of power that should be covering you. I think I've almost got it sorted now though, I'll update the pull request when I think it's ready.

Edited July 28, 2014 by AshIzat

[RoverDude]

I've been doing some more playing around with it a bit and there are still a few issue that need working out. for example on the top two levels of time warp it still drains your karbonite (rather quickly) even if you have other forms of power that should be covering you. I think I've almost got it sorted now though, I'll update the pull request when I think it's ready.

Thanks

And for the thread in general - I added 'Help Wanted' to the who's working on what bit on the first post, so modelers are more than welcome to join on in and contribute. Ideally the same modeler handles the different form factors for things, but I'll take all the help I can get

[Doctor Axel]

A thing I noticed re: the inline drill that I'm sure has been brought up already... I see that it employs Interstellar's megawatt resource to function - I'm actually using Near Future instead of Interstellar so I don't have the megawatt resource, and in fact it looks I can run the drill for free. =P I'm thinking that if Interstellar isn't detected, the drill ought to consume regular old Electric Charge.

EDIT

I'm sure this has been noticed as well, but the converter will continue to add liquidfuel to its attached LFO tanks even after its attached Karbonite tanks are empty - only stops when it's shut off.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Doctor Axel

[Patupi]

I know it is not a top priority at this moment, but action groups, or landing gear control functionality, would be great. I had a problem getting the landing gear with a right click and scrapped a mission to Mun in the process. Another thing I have noticed is there seem to be a phantom force when the legs are extended causing the craft to spiral out of control, but this random so I am not sure if it is a design problem, Unity problem, or something else. Here is the Craft file of what I have been using for testing, nothing overly fancy but it works....sometimes. I am using the most up to date version, unless there is an update while I write this , and .24.2 mod free (exception being Karbonite of course).

I had something I attributed to some kind of phantom force as well with the hab modules. I had just enough RCS to get the things to lift up and move around on Minmus, but with the legs extended it wouldn't budge from the ground. If it was already in the air, fine. I assumed it was part of the 'stabilization' system when the legs were down. Unfortunately my five piece base tore itself apart for no perceivable reason when I brought the next section near. Curiously not when I got within 2.3km, but at about 700m, and after that every time I focused on it. It might be a similar condition.

What files should I post relating to this? I'm not sure I have a save from before the incident, but I'll see if I can dig out the log files or something.

EDIT: Oh, and just for info I'm currently on KSP 0.24.0, not the .2 version, and using 0.18.8 of MKS. Has anything changed.... Oh I'm an idiot! I've been looking back and forth between Karbonite and MKS threads and when I saw this I posted. I only have MKS installed, not Karbonite. It was the landing gear on the lower section for the hab pods I had issues with.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Patupi

[RoverDude]

A thing I noticed re: the inline drill that I'm sure has been brought up already... I see that it employs Interstellar's megawatt resource to function - I'm actually using Near Future instead of Interstellar so I don't have the megawatt resource, and in fact it looks I can run the drill for free. =P I'm thinking that if Interstellar isn't detected, the drill ought to consume regular old Electric Charge.

EDIT

I'm sure this has been noticed as well, but the converter will continue to add liquidfuel to its attached LFO tanks even after its attached Karbonite tanks are empty - only stops when it's shut off.

Has nothing to do with KSPI - it's how ORS translates EC for the display. For the latter issue, I'll need to investigate.

I had something I attributed to some kind of phantom force as well with the hab modules. I had just enough RCS to get the things to lift up and move around on Minmus, but with the legs extended it wouldn't budge from the ground. If it was already in the air, fine. I assumed it was part of the 'stabilization' system when the legs were down. Unfortunately my five piece base tore itself apart for no perceivable reason when I brought the next section near. Curiously not when I got within 2.3km, but at about 700m, and after that every time I focused on it. It might be a similar condition.

What files should I post relating to this? I'm not sure I have a save from before the incident, but I'll see if I can dig out the log files or something.

EDIT: Oh, and just for info I'm currently on KSP 0.24.0, not the .2 version, and using 0.18.8 of MKS. Has anything changed.... Oh I'm an idiot! I've been looking back and forth between Karbonite and MKS threads and when I saw this I posted. I only have MKS installed, not Karbonite. It was the landing gear on the lower section for the hab pods I had issues with.

Your MKS version is out of date - we're on 19.1