[24.2] Karbonite Ongoing Dev and Discussion

[Doctor Axel]

Has nothing to do with KSPI - it's how ORS translates EC for the display.

You are correct sir. =P Just tried running the drill without any EC income of any kind and saw the 2.5/s consumption when I turned it on. Derp. Thanks!

[maxrsp]

Nothing to add here except a big "thanks" to RoverDude and team. We need more mods like this one

[Smurfalot]

It fills a similar space, but nothing in Karbonite will conflict with Kethane. Which mods have the dependency? It would be nice to provide open license alternatives to all things Kethane.

Extraplanetary Launchpads is the main one I have that relies on Kethane...I have not tried those parts with Karbonite yet though.

[Doctor Axel]

I'm definitely interested in the mining of EL resources as well. Same with TAC LS. I figure support for both of those is bound to be in the pipe soon, from somewhere.

I'm also interested in mining the Near Future resources - which are similar to some of the resources in the ORS but have slightly different names (Argon vs. ArgonGas, for example). I could see the upcoming aeroscoops picking up Argon/Xenon. Since ORS already has heatmaps set up for those, you know... =P I just dunno if the NF resources would need to be renamed to match the ORS ones, or what.

[sidfu]

u do know u can dd them all yourself. most modders dont hard code the rescouces into a .dll of the mod

[tygoo7]

I'm definitely interested in the mining of EL resources as well. Same with TAC LS. I figure support for both of those is bound to be in the pipe soon, from somewhere.

I'm also interested in mining the Near Future resources - which are similar to some of the resources in the ORS but have slightly different names (Argon vs. ArgonGas, for example). I could see the upcoming aeroscoops picking up Argon/Xenon. Since ORS already has heatmaps set up for those, you know... =P I just dunno if the NF resources would need to be renamed to match the ORS ones, or what.

Wait NearFuture has resources to be mined?

[Mutifex]

Extraplanetary Launchpads is the main one I have that relies on Kethane...I have not tried those parts with Karbonite yet though.

I'm definitely interested in the mining of EL resources as well. Same with TAC LS. I figure support for both of those is bound to be in the pipe soon, from somewhere.

I'm also interested in mining the Near Future resources - which are similar to some of the resources in the ORS but have slightly different names (Argon vs. ArgonGas, for example). I could see the upcoming aeroscoops picking up Argon/Xenon. Since ORS already has heatmaps set up for those, you know... =P I just dunno if the NF resources would need to be renamed to match the ORS ones, or what.

If you guys go waaaayyyyy back to here in the thread :

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/87335-Karbonite-A-cheerful-license-friendly-alternative-to-Kethane%21-v0-0-5/page55

Carcharhinidae posted a compatibility patch for EL a couple of days back which allows it to do without kethane by adding the ability to make rocket parts with MKS parts. I'm have it installed and am due to test it very shortly, you guys may want to do the same.

and the quick link to his patch : https://www.dropbox.com/sh/aletn3e5m430g7j/AAAmvwenaNRY-pnNlQX8K5nCa

I think this has managed to get buried in the masses of discussion for many of us. Worth trying out...

[Robotengineer]

I made a quick config for EL resources in ORS. Not sure if it is right, I used the Karbonite config, and did a find and replace to change it to Ore, but leave the directories the same. https://www.dropbox.com/s/1h8cbz8eadm1fht/ElResourcesORS.cfg Public Domain. @RoverDude, if you want to include this you can.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Robotengineer
Added as a DL.

[Doctor Axel]

u do know u can dd them all yourself. most modders dont hard code the rescouces into a .dll of the mod

True. I might take a stab at it tonight. ^^

@tygoo7 there aren't any Near Future resources to be mined at present, but ORS already has definitions for some very similarly-named resources (I'm guessing they're from Interstellar) - I figure that's a good place to start fiddling around.

[Robotengineer]

I've ran into some issues wit the intake, so it probably won't be ready tonight, the UV's keep messing up. If anybody else wants to make it I'm sure they can do a better job. Or if someone would like to do the texture.

[sidfu]

robotengineer mks already adds ore to planets with ORS.

[Robotengineer]

robotengineer mks already adds ore to planets with ORS.

I didn't know, I'll remove it from the post.

[Carcharhinidae]

I didn't know, I'll remove it from the post.

keep it. so people won't need to have MKS to get the ore for EL. maybe make it a seperate (optional) file?

[sidfu]

so u know u still need a greyscale map for ors to use it otherwise the ore be same spot as karbonite which kinda sucks. even with just the ors folder from mks u wouldnt need rest of mks just the ors folder since its tied to ors not mks. also by changening the name paths u could move the mks ors fodler proaly to somewhere else.

[Robotengineer]

so u know u still need a greyscale map for ors to use it otherwise the ore be same spot as karbonite which kinda sucks. even with just the ors folder from mks u wouldnt need rest of mks just the ors folder since its tied to ors not mks. also by changening the name paths u could move the mks ors fodler proaly to somewhere else.

Ok, it was something I just threw together real quick incase someone was looking for one.

[AshIzat]

The electric generator module is about there now I think. You can timewarp freely, and as long as your other power sources can keep up, you'll not actually burn any karbonite. When your other sources can't keep up, you'll only burn enough karbonite to make up the difference. It also ramps up and down in power gradually, mainly because I liked it, but also because it stops the output numbers flickering.

We probably need to work out how much power these things should be generating, and at what efficiency. If we based it on something like gasoline we would be looking at around 47MJ/litre, that's a lot, but we could probably assume that this thing is only 10% efficient even if we were feeding it pure gasoline, and what we are digging up is raw and unrefined and full of garbage we don't need so say, 1MJ/litre? Could possibly lower than that even. 500kJ sounds good to me. So that's my vote for its efficiency, or lack thereof.

In terms of actual output power, I'm not sure. Obviously the bigger generators should have higher outputs, but what to base it on? I've been testing at 500kW output, that's a lot, absolutely nothing in the base game comes close to using that much power, but in terms of reality it's about right for a 3.75M part, and there are mods that can make use of that. This is what came up when I did an image search for 500kW generator. So my vote is 500kW, 100kW and 20kW.

What are peoples thoughts on these numbers?

EDIT: we could also consider slight efficiency penalties for the smaller generators, economy of scale and all that.

Edited July 28, 2014 by AshIzat

[RoverDude]

The electric generator module is about there now I think. You can timewarp freely, and as long as your other power sources can keep up, you'll not actually burn any karbonite. When your other sources can't keep up, you'll only burn enough karbonite to make up the difference. It also ramps up and down in power gradually, mainly because I liked it, but also because it stops the output numbers flickering.

We probably need to work out how much power these things should be generating, and at what efficiency. If we based it on something like gasoline we would be looking at around 47MJ/litre, that's a lot, but we could probably assume that this thing is only 10% efficient even if we were feeding it pure gasoline, and what we are digging up is raw and unrefined and full of garbage we don't need so say, 1MJ/litre? Could possibly lower than that even. 500kJ sounds good to me. So that's my vote for its efficiency, or lack thereof.

In terms of actual output power, I'm not sure. Obviously the bigger generators should have higher outputs, but what to base it on? I've been testing at 500kW output, that's a lot, absolutely nothing in the base game comes close to using that much power, but in terms of reality it's about right for a 3.75M part, and there are mods that can make use of that. This is what came up when I did an image search for 500kW generator. So my vote is 500kW, 100kW and 20kW.

What are peoples thoughts on these numbers?

EDIT: we could also consider slight efficiency penalties for the smaller generators, economy of scale and all that.

Some KSP-I stuff uses that kind of power, it would make for some really interesting combinations. I'd also scale it down to the 0.625 level and see what that gives you as well, or a small radial part.

[Doctor Axel]

The electric generator module is about there now I think. You can timewarp freely, and as long as your other power sources can keep up, you'll not actually burn any karbonite. When your other sources can't keep up, you'll only burn enough karbonite to make up the difference. It also ramps up and down in power gradually, mainly because I liked it, but also because it stops the output numbers flickering.

We probably need to work out how much power these things should be generating, and at what efficiency. If we based it on something like gasoline we would be looking at around 47MJ/litre, that's a lot, but we could probably assume that this thing is only 10% efficient even if we were feeding it pure gasoline, and what we are digging up is raw and unrefined and full of garbage we don't need so say, 1MJ/litre? Could possibly lower than that even. 500kJ sounds good to me. So that's my vote for its efficiency, or lack thereof.

In terms of actual output power, I'm not sure. Obviously the bigger generators should have higher outputs, but what to base it on? I've been testing at 500kW output, that's a lot, absolutely nothing in the base game comes close to using that much power, but in terms of reality it's about right for a 3.75M part, and there are mods that can make use of that. This is what came up when I did an image search for 500kW generator. So my vote is 500kW, 100kW and 20kW.

What are peoples thoughts on these numbers?

EDIT: we could also consider slight efficiency penalties for the smaller generators, economy of scale and all that.

Easy to approach those kinds of numbers with Near Future as well - running a cluster of HI-SNAP engines will easily eat up 500kW.

Agreed re: the 0.625 scale generator, I'd stick that on a rover in lieu of solar panels or a third-arm-growing RTG. =P

[AshIzat]

Some KSP-I stuff uses that kind of power, it would make for some really interesting combinations. I'd also scale it down to the 0.625 level and see what that gives you as well, or a small radial part.

The thing with KSP-I is, the lowest 0.625m fission reactor is going to have a higher output than the 3.75m karbonite generator, and rightly so, from the same table as I got that Gasoline figure, Uranium:

80,620,000MJ. Hmm... I would suggest not bothering with a 3.75m generator, now that I look back you don't have any parts that large planned anyway, so it wouldn't really make sense. 100kW, 20kW and 4kW? I can't see 4kW being all that useful, I think solar pannels fill that space quite well, it could make a useful night time generator I suppose, especially as you can leave it running in the daytime too and not waste karbonite. Also karbonite powered rovers, that could be cool. Actually I've talked myself round I like that idea now. In fact I may just go and build a Karbonite powered rover...

Edit:

Agreed re: the 0.625 scale generator, I'd stick that on a rover in lieu of solar panels or a third-arm-growing RTG. =P

great minds thing alike

Edited July 28, 2014 by AshIzat

[Doctor Axel]

The numbers given for the generators above are actually not dissimilar to Near Future's own fission generators - I think the 0.625 generator from NFT outputs 40kW, and the 1.25 outputs 250kW. Reality-wise it's probably off, but game-wise it works out pretty well - splitting atoms offers a decent advantage over burning karbonite, and the fuel lasts hecka longer. Boom. ^^

...I forgot that NF adds Uranium as a resource. Now I wanna mine that too... >.>

[passinglurker]

We should probably keep in mind the near future and interstellar are not balanced against each other which means if this mod is meant to be used with both we either need to find a happy medium or maintain two separate balance configurations for people to choose from(or if we pick only one to balance against I vote near future since interstellar has its own resource mining parts)... or we do it the easy way and just balance against stock only with a big "other mods may break ballance" warning sticker for those who care.

[RockoDyne]

I think I'm liking the idea of using karbonite in an electrical generator. It would be a pretty good reason to have actual reserves of it on a craft. This kind of needs nertea to balance it out reasonably, since most of it's applications will probably involve NF.

[Targa]

RoverDude: Meant to mention in my earlier post that I also tested the issue of the Converter creating fuel faster than the Driller mines Karbonite. It's definitely bugged. Just drilling, I was able to get ~1.08 Karbonite per minute. Converting during drilling I was able to get ~5.35 LF/min. Seems to me that the Converter's routines are not up to snuff. It also depletes stored Karbonite when it has no place to put the fuel, so it essentially vanishes. Although it has INPUT_RESOURCE/OUTPUT_RESOURCE and ratios in the config, whatever scripting is handling that is not working properly.

In short: The resource-handling code for the Converter has two issues. 1. It doesn't check for free available storage space for the LF/OX/MP it's producing. 2. It can handle being fed from a Karbonite fuel tank, but gets confused when being fed by a Drill (ie: not interfacing with the Drill and checking its extraction rate).

Edit: This may sound silly to a coder (or not), but if I had to guess, I'd say the Converter is seeing right through the drill, as if the drill is merely a pipeline connected to the vast reservior of the planets Karbonite reserves. It looks at the planetary deposit and asks the ORS code, "what's the extractionRateLandPerTon limit?", the reply being the maximum limit (say 1.0 rather than the drill's 0.1), hence the increased output. Ah... whatever. Just trying to be helpful.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Targa

[RoverDude]

We should probably keep in mind the near future and interstellar are not balanced against each other which means if this mod is meant to be used with both we either need to find a happy medium or maintain two separate balance configurations for people to choose from(or if we pick only one to balance against I vote near future since interstellar has its own resource mining parts)... or we do it the easy way and just balance against stock only with a big "other mods may break ballance" warning sticker for those who care.

I think I'm liking the idea of using karbonite in an electrical generator. It would be a pretty good reason to have actual reserves of it on a craft. This kind of needs nertea to balance it out reasonably, since most of it's applications will probably involve NF.

I vote the 'Go our own route with what makes sense balanced against stock' route. Options are good, don't want to be tied to any mod, though Nertea sounds closest so I am down with that if 'stock' and 'near future' land darn close.

RoverDude: Meant to mention in my earlier post that I also tested the issue of the Converter creating fuel faster than the Driller mines Karbonite. It's definitely bugged. Just drilling, I was able to get ~1.08 Karbonite per minute. Converting during drilling I was able to get ~5.35 LF/min. Seems to me that the Converter's routines are not up to snuff. It also depletes stored Karbonite when it has no place to put the fuel, so it essentially vanishes. Although it has INPUT_RESOURCE/OUTPUT_RESOURCE and ratios in the config, whatever scripting is handling that is not working properly.

In short: The resource-handling code for the Converter has two issues. 1. It doesn't check for free available storage space for the LF/OX/MP it's producing. 2. It can handle being fed from a Karbonite fuel tank, but gets confused when being fed by a Drill (ie: not interfacing with the Drill and checking its extraction rate).

Looking into this shortly - My suspicion is that this is caused by conversion rate being faster than extraction rate and causing things to get silly

[Boomerang]

I asked this over in the SCANsat thread and I'm waiting for some feed back about a MM patch, but is it expected behavior that with the dev version of SCANsat that we have the option to display karbonite deposits put nothing ever actually shows up on the SCANsat maps?