(or maybe exploit or just gaming the system) Gaming the Contract System

[elfindreams]

What happens: After completing the "Explore <planetbody>" missions, missions will spawn asking for "Science data from space around <planetbody>". There will always be at least one of these. Finish it and one will always re-spawn. If you have probes around each of the planet bodies (right now for me it is Kerbin, Mun and Minmus) that you have completed the explore mission for, even if the experiment would net you 0 science and has been done 50 times before, you will get the contract rewards and as soon as you complete them, new ones spawn... Not sure if this is a bug or just gaming the system, but seems a little like there is something wrong

How to reproduce:

* Complete "Orbit Kerbin"

* Place probe into orbit with a single solar panel and a single science experiment and antennae.

* Complete "Explore Mun"

* Place a similar probe in orbit around Mun

* Go to Mission Control

* Accept any "Science data..." missions.

* Go to the appropriate probe and transmit the same science experiment.

* Go to Mission Control

* Repeat

Notes:

* I have only done the cycle around 20 times so it is possible the RNG gods just love me but it seems consistent enough that it feels like that mission is on some "Must Spawn" list.

[sal_vager]

Maybe this should be in Tutorials

[elfindreams]

Maybe this should be in Tutorials

And the really sad part about it, despite being "Trivial", one star missions, they give an insane amount of "Funds" and reputation.

The Minmus one nets you > 70k and > 300 rep IIRC, Mun is > 60k and ~300 rep (a little less), and Kerbin is ~30k and 100-200 rep..

SO a single set gets you over 160k funds and ~800 rep in about a minute or less.

[Njs41]

Maby a good fix for this would be to limit the amount of times you can receive a certain kind of contract, and the more times you do it the less funds/rep you get from it.

[Bilfr3d]

They should make it so that a minimum of .1 science points HAS to be received for it to be completed, so you cant continually redo the experiments.

[Claw]

Since this isn't really a bug so much as a loophole in the gaming construct, I've moved this to Gameplay Questions & Tutorials (so others may learn, abuse, and critique as desired).

~Claw

[Vlk]

Well, this is not a bug, true, but the severity of this issue is pretty high, i think. Is there a way to vote for this to be fixed? As a "true sandboxer", i know that it is I, who decide what missions to choose. But the whole point of carrier mode is that it helps you create a reality, where your only job is to be an effective mission-planner, and you dont have to think about, "is it realistic that i can afford to run costly missions for what i've done until now, is it realistic that i receive this much fund for these kind of missions?"

So balancing the missions would be important, and the most out-of-balance type of missions are these, i think.

[Claw]

Well, this is not a bug, true, but the severity of this issue is pretty high, i think. Is there a way to vote for this to be fixed?

...

So balancing the missions would be important, and the most out-of-balance type of missions are these, i think.

Sure, I get that. Your best bet is to submit a suggestion to the suggestions forum. It really helps if you post an idea in the suggestion forum, instead of merely saying "this thing is not right." It's not really a bug so much as a the way it's mech'd at the moment. So if you have something different that you'd like to see in this particular case, it's best put up as a suggestion.

This particular thread doesn't offer any suggestions, but does discuss an aspect of gameplay. That's why it now sits here.

Cheers,

~Claw

[chrise6102]

I like the incentive for having probes around bodies to continually study them but I agree that it's too easy to exploit. At the very least, having the contracts tied to a specific experiment that couldn't be given again would help (ie. if you are asked to record temperature around the mun you won't be asked to do it again but you might be asked for a gravity reading).

[catastrophy]

How is building up a network of probes an exploit?

[SRV Ron]

Like real exploration, data is required from orbit at regular intervals. An orbiting satellite is ideal for doing such contract. However, the monetary return should make it worthwhile for those that have a satellite already in orbit since it should cost more to launch a probe to do that mission then the reward for completing it.

[Vlk]

catastrophy, the exploit is that you are able to get a lot of money for the same readings. But building up a network of probes is cool, as chrise said. A similar thing is that, you get a relatively good amount of funds for saving kerbals stuck in an orbit around kerbin - if you shoot up a cluster of escape pods, you can do this mission effectively as well. Which is good, unless the reward is too big (i did not play enough yet to have an opinion about that). But still - for this mission you at least have to launch a few rockets, the pods are not totally reusable for the mission, and you have to make a rendezvous too.

[catastrophy]

catastrophy, the exploit is that you are able to get a lot of money for the same readings. But building up a network of probes is cool, as chrise said. A similar thing is that, you get a relatively good amount of funds for saving kerbals stuck in an orbit around kerbin - if you shoot up a cluster of escape pods, you can do this mission effectively as well. Which is good, unless the reward is too big (i did not play enough yet to have an opinion about that). But still - for this mission you at least have to launch a few rockets, the pods are not totally reusable for the mission, and you have to make a rendezvous too.

Gamey is actually taking a contract and exploiting the part which is meant to be tested. But having satellites where people may need data from is totally not. I find it quite immersive and I like to have done something that is useful even after the actual mission.

Saying it's an exploit is strange. Such as when the government gave a contract for building a railroad and when it's finished and someone operates it - should there be no earnings coming off it?

The return and rewards is another thing, but I'm sure those will be looked at.

[Skorpychan]

Like real exploration, data is required from orbit at regular intervals. An orbiting satellite is ideal for doing such contract. However, the monetary return should make it worthwhile for those that have a satellite already in orbit since it should cost more to launch a probe to do that mission then the reward for completing it.

This makes far too much sense. However, it's less fun.

Considering that I had a blast earlier with a semi-planned mission:

I launched, and did a crew report in LKO for a contract.

Then I burned for Minimus.

Before circularisation, I dropped a part I was being paid to test.

Then I circularised the orbit, and dropped ANOTHER part I was paid to test, along with getting another contract of science data.

Then I landed, and scored another biome's science.

Then I took off, exited Minimus' SoI, and decided to make a Mun flyby for another contract.

Some screwing with nodes and radials later, Mun flyby. But then I noticed it was going to be a fly-into, and had to burn to avoid that, instead getting a close pass.

Then back to Kerbin, where I managed to nail a ground landing for some bonus science.

In contrast, three science platforms would have been easier and quicker, but not as fun.

[RSF77]

A possible idea might be to require probes(experiment parts) to be around for a certain amount of orbits along with balanced rewards for such experiments, but still retaining the same general aspects of it. Once a cycle is done and mission is completed, the experiment resets itself and continues with the next cycle of waiting for experiment completion. This would make a few things feasible that people in this thread said that they enjoyed in the game:

1) Increasing benefit from multiple probes in orbit and making probe networks worthwhile. Just an idea but maybe even some kind of bonus for having any given area of kerbin visible by a probe, such as the entire equator or something.

2) Completed experiments and their satellites/probes wouldn't become useless space debris forever that haunts your OCD nightmares.

3) No return for initial investment and not subject to "repetitive clicking abuse" or whatnot, but builds up a small base of income that can be relied upon later for higher tier space projects.

4) Kerbals may be able to communicate with their loved ones via cellphone, given that they are even sexually dimorphic. Come to think of it, a mission from a company wanting to establish a satellite phone network seems fairly realistic and cool.

5) These orbiting satellite missions could be more or less rewarding by requiring specific orbital parameters, such as in real life. Higher, more eccentric orbits yielding more rewards per experiment/cycle.

Don't know if it is even possible or not since ksp doesn't seem to pay attention to objects not in the immediate area of the player, but I would imagine it wouldn't take too many computer resources for a given orbital experiment to only be able to be completed at such and such time/date or after so many orbits.

Anyways, just an idea I thought was cool.

Edited July 24, 2014 by RSF77

[Red Iron Crown]

This is one of the lesser exploits of the career system. Others:

- Accept a contract to test a part you don't have researched yet. Ignore completing the contract and you have access to the part perpetually until the contract expires, without researching it.

- By tweaking resources out of certain parts, they can be made to have a negative cost. Spam some launches of those parts without recovering them for easy money.

- If you are near zero funds, accept all contracts to get a cash infusion. build a ship that uses up all your money and sit it on the pad or runway. Cancel all contracts, the financial penalties have no effect since you can't go into debt. Recover your expensive ship, and you get the money with no contractual obligations. (This one does negatively affect your reputation.)

[elfindreams]

Well since we are brainstorming here.

I like the idea of setting up networks of satellites (why I run RemoteTech ) and like the idea of being rewarded for it.

However there are two problems with this right now:

1. The rewards are disproportionately high. Despite being "Trivial" it rewards more money and rep than some of the highest tier contracts.

2. It is guaranteed. There is no delay, no random chance, you complete all the available science ones, there is a 100% chance a new one will immediately pop up.

Both of these are basic balance issues. I had posted this as a bug because I was not sure this was the "intended behaviorâ„¢". Some places classify gameplay "exploits" that violate "intended behavior" as bugs. Now that I know that the mods would rather they be put in suggestions, if I find any new ones, then I will put it there (my apologies to the mods).

[KingPhantom]

its the gameplay. i find it great. now its usefull to place probe satellites around the objects! that was something i missed before 0.24!

when you calculate all there is no big step ahead. of course you can make funds in a second. but you will loose this funds in a "plant a flag mission". they only give much funds when you do the plant a flag mission togehter with "send science from orbits". and you loose the funds from placing a satellite in the orbits. because they wont return. so in fact for me it's only another way to do the job. not "bug using" or cheating.

[Vlk]

(edit: reply to Red Iron Crown's comment)

I dont think the severity of these are higher than the issue we're talking about.

The first (Accept a contract to test a part you don't have researched yet) is intended, i think. And you get contracts only from the visible research nodes, one step ahead. So this is something like a beta test phase.

The second sounds like an obvious bug, but gameplay wise, i dont think it is as bad. For "our issue", you constantly get tempted from the mission center. For your bug, you deliberately have to cheat.

The third one is the same: if you play normally, you will never do this. You have to be a bad manager to do something like this.

(Reminder: this is a single player, so "clever exploits" are not as bad az gameplay outof balanceness)

[Red Iron Crown]

(edit: reply to Red Iron Crown's comment)

I dont think the severity of these are higher than the issue we're talking about.

The first (Accept a contract to test a part you don't have researched yet) is intended, i think. And you get contracts only from the visible research nodes, one step ahead. So this is something like a beta test phase.

The second sounds like an obvious bug, but gameplay wise, i dont think it is as bad. For "our issue", you constantly get tempted from the mission center. For your bug, you deliberately have to cheat.

The third one is the same: if you play normally, you will never do this. You have to be a bad manager to do something like this.

(Reminder: this is a single player, so "clever exploits" are not as bad az gameplay outof balanceness)

Agreed about the single player "cheats", it's a matter of player preference. But we are talking about how the system is exploitable, so some discussion is fine, I think. I guess the relative severity of the exploits is also a matter of opinion, as all of them require the player to actively exploit them.

The first one I mentioned is the worst, I think (access to "prototype" parts). The reason is that there's no limit on the number of the part you can use, nor the number of missions that it can be used on. For example, if you accept a "test an LV-N" mission, it should give you exactly one LV-N to use for testing. Maybe another if you destroy that one, though it would be interesting to fail part testing contracts if you destroy the prototype. You shouldn't be able to build a bunch of reusable nuclear tugs that you leave in orbit before completing the contract, thus getting the benefit of researching the node without spending any science on it. Some sort of limitation on the prototypes is in order, I think.

[Jade Falcon]

I don't think the OP's example is any more of an exploit than the flag planting missions. I mean seriously go to the Mun. Leave lander on Mun. Go to Gene collect flag planting contract, swap back to Kerbal on Mun, say hello to 76K. Rinse and repeat.

I try not to do those more than once now.