Rescue questions: visibility, reloading.

[Mister Spock]

A couple of questions related to a contract for a rescue mission. Yes, I know to use "[" to switch to the stranded Kerbal; I had other issues.

1. The first was *seeing* the stranded Kerbal. I put on his helmet light, but even when he was 300m away, I couldn't see him from the ship. People say to get the claw, but I couldn't see the Kerbal to claw him!

2. More importantly, the stranded Kerbal had trouble seeing the ship! I had festooned the ship with copies of both the lamps available to me, but I still couldn't spot it, even 300m away. I did finally see it once, and I chased after it ineffectively. Should I wait to do these missions until I get red/green lights? Or until I get that claw thing, I suppose?

3. Most importantly, my empty capsule magically filled with Jeb when I reloaded! I designed a ship with a probe and an empty capsule, and I flew it empty (no crew) into orbit. I got to within 400m of my stranded Kerbil, switched to him...and floundered while trying to rendez-vous with my ship. I'm not adept with the EVA controls, it's safe to say. After a long period of floundering, the ship pulled away, and, being low on fuel, I (cough) reloaded a quick save with Alt-F9. But when I reloaded, shazam, Jeb is now sitting in my cockpit! Groan! Even if I rescue the stranded Kerbel, someone's gonna have to get out and float.

Is this a bug? Is there a way to design the rescue ship so that reloading won't repopulate it with Jeb? I haven't reported it as a bug officially yet, because I'm unable to reproduce it in the VAB/launchpad now. I build a ship with empty capsule and probe; put on launch pad; quicksave; reload; and the capsule is still empty. I suppose it's faintly possible I didn't notice Jeb in the 2 hours that I worked on this rescue mission, but I doubt it!

Thanks in advance.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Mister Spock
Change to "answered."

[Taki117]

For 3: If you empty the cockpit in the editor, then change anything it fills the cockpit again (Jeb is a tad over zealous) as far as the other 2, that's normal? Generally speaking lights are very weak and more than about 30m from anything you won't be able to see anything.

[Mister Spock]

Thanks for your reply. Hmm, so did I "empty the cockpit in the editor, then change something" by starting the flight with an empty capsule, hitting alt-F5 to quicksave, and hitting alt-F9 to quickload? In other words, if I want to run an empty cockpit, I'd better go Iron Man and get it right without reloading?

Wow, 30 meters. Does this mean that these Kerbal-rescue missions require us to plot an intercept course that close? I was proud of myself for getting within 300 meters! This was my first try, though. But I couldn't figure out any way to get the ship closer. Pointing right at the Kerbil and burning seemed inefficient or worse.

[Taki117]

Thanks for your reply. Hmm, so did I "empty the cockpit in the editor, then change something" by starting the flight with an empty capsule, hitting alt-F5 to quicksave, and hitting alt-F9 to quickload? In other words, if I want to run an empty cockpit, I'd better go Iron Man and get it right without reloading?

Wow, 30 meters. Does this mean that these Kerbal-rescue missions require us to plot an intercept course that close? I was proud of myself for getting within 300 meters! This was my first try, though. But I couldn't figure out any way to get the ship closer. Pointing right at the Kerbil and burning seemed inefficient or worse.

Hmm, if all you're doing is quicksave/loading then it shouldn't fill your cockpit with a kerbal, unless he was already there and you didn't notice him. Also, when 300m you need to zero out your relative velocity (Switch the navball to target mode if it's not already) Then make a small burn towards your target, zeroing as necessary, unless you have RCS, then use that.

[Claw]

I think what Taki is talking about is when you change something within the VAB. Kerbals like to climb back into the cockpit if it isn't the last thing you do.

However, that doesn't sound like what you're describing. I guess I would have to ask if you by chance saved previously, maybe in an earlier time that you launched where Jeb happened to be on board.

It isn't typical for a kerbal to show up randomly after a quicksave. So if that's the case, it isn't normal. I would say you can try again with the empty capsule and save/load as required. If you get it to happen again, then it would be good to see if you can figure out if there were any steps in common (aside from the save/load).

The lights can be a pain. It might be easier to point the lights of your ship at the ship itself. That way the ship is illuminated when on the dark side of Kerbin, instead of trying to point the light at something as small as a kerbal.

Cheers,

~Claw

[xcorps]

When you switch to the stranded Kerbal, go to map and select the rescue ship as your target. I flew a Kerbal 3km to get the rescue ship because I forgot to add RCS thrusters (even though I didn't forget the fuel) and didn't have enough Dv to do anything but deorbit.

[Jean Deaux]

This was my favorite part of this challenge, was finding the needle in the haystack of emptiness. Here's some tips that I use that may help you.

The Navball is your friend here, be sure you have your Kerbal targeted so he'll show up on the Navball as a target to steer towards (pro grade or retrograde). Once you're close, keep your speed slow just as you would a docking maneuver. Now you just need a point of reference to help align your view to your target. I like to use the sun because it's so easy to find. What I do is point the nose of my ship directly towards my target (the floating Kerbal) and rotate the navball to a level/horizontal plane so I can easily tell North & South and take my relationship of where my nose is pointing and where I am in relationship to the sun. If the sun is behind me and the angle is up and left, when I switch to the Kerbal using the "[" key I know I should be looking towards the sun down and right (the opposite direction). The ship should be easier to see than the Kerbal, and simply use your RCS pack to fly the Kerbal to the ship. You may have to bounce back and forth a few times until you're close enough but this method worked for me without fail.

[Mister Spock]

Thanks for the further replies!

@xcorp: I tried targeting the ship when I "assumed command" of the Kerbil, but the Kerbil has no navball. How did you use targeting to figure out which direction to move? Also, I haven't unlocked RCS yet, but I have the Science to do it, so it may be my next science pick.

@Claw: I was sure I'd kept Jeb out of that empty cockpit; I go out of my way to check that he's not there before I fly any mission, and I know he has a way of auto-inserting himself. (I like to keep Jeb grounded even when I'm flying manned missions. I don't like losing him!) But it's possible I'm mistaken. I will try to reproduce the issue tomorrow, and if I can't reproduce it, I won't report it as a bug. As for the lights, I actually did point them at the ship, not into space, to make it like a billboard or something. Once I did spot the ship, I could see it from a couple hundred meters away, maybe further.

@Taki and Jean Deaux: I'm pretty sure I was in target mode. I targeted the Kerbil, and I saw him as a pair of pink markers, the larger of which indicates I'm moving toward him. And I saw target speed relative to me right above the navball: 8 m/s when we were closest. But burning in this direction didn't help me catch him. I didn't have RCS; maybe that would have helped. You say to stay slow; I assume that means, slow relative to the target? We're both hurtling through space at 2000 m/s in orbit, which is part of the reason I found it so hard to chase after the ship once I "assumed command" of the Kerbil. The ship would go hurtling by in one direction and the other! But I assume I'll get the hang of the EVA thing.

Also, what are those cool emblems in your guys' sig? Achievements from the achievements mod? They look vaguely like the badges I earn for my Kerbils in Final Frontier. (I'm using Final Frontier, Chatterer, Kerbil Engineer Redux, and PreciseNode.)

I'll leave this "unanswered" until I get a chance to re-test the empty capsule/reload thing tomorrow. I assume you pretty much *have* to run this rescue mission with an empty capsule, or at least a capsule with an empty seat.

[KingPhantom]

hmmm. i already rescured 2 of them... the easiest missions ever with a lot of funds winning... just use the target- and navball functions

[Reactordrone]

Thanks for the further replies!

@xcorp: I tried targeting the ship when I "assumed command" of the Kerbil, but the Kerbil has no navball. How did you use targeting to figure out which direction to move? Also, I haven't unlocked RCS yet, but I have the Science to do it, so it may be my next science pick.

You can hit the M button to bring up map view during EVA in order to select the ship as a target then go back to stage view and just rotate your camera until you see the targeted object, point at the target and use fwd, back, left, right and up down controls to burn towards it.

[KingPhantom]

but activate the jetpack first with R

[Mister Spock]

You can hit the M button to bring up map view during EVA in order to select the ship as a target then go back to stage view and just rotate your camera until you see the targeted object, point at the target and use fwd, back, left, right and up down controls to burn towards it.

Hmm, I think I tried this, but I didn't see the targeted object highlighted in any way in stage view. I guess I'll try it again.

As for RCS, I do know how to activate the suit (with "R"). I meant that I haven't unlocked RCS for my ships yet, so my maneuvering was limited to using the main engine to burn. Spaceship-RCS presumably works better for rescues than just burning the main engine?

[Taki117]

Thanks for the further replies!

@Taki and Jean Deaux: I'm pretty sure I was in target mode. I targeted the Kerbil, and I saw him as a pair of pink markers, the larger of which indicates I'm moving toward him. And I saw target speed relative to me right above the navball: 8 m/s when we were closest. But burning in this direction didn't help me catch him. I didn't have RCS; maybe that would have helped. You say to stay slow; I assume that means, slow relative to the target? We're both hurtling through space at 2000 m/s in orbit, which is part of the reason I found it so hard to chase after the ship once I "assumed command" of the Kerbil. The ship would go hurtling by in one direction and the other! But I assume I'll get the hang of the EVA thing.

Also, what are those cool emblems in your guys' sig? Achievements from the achievements mod? They look vaguely like the badges I earn for my Kerbils in Final Frontier. (I'm using Final Frontier, Chatterer, Kerbil Engineer Redux, and PreciseNode.)

I'll answer your second question first. If you click on them (At least on mine) They will take you to the Ribbons page. Basically they are to show where we've been and what we've done.

Now for your first set of questions: Yes, I do mean slow relative to the target, 8m/s is good, but you want to zero out your relative velocity by burning retrograde relative to the target. This is done by having the Navball in Target Mode and finding the retrograde marker. You might also want to limit your thrust (Depending on which engine you have) to a very low value so that you don't go shooting past your target. (Generally speaking if I need to make small corrections I turn the trust all the way down to it's lowest setting) By lowering your thrust you lower your TWR, which means you have finer control over how fast your velocity is changing. Once you have zero'd your relative velocity point target prograde (The pink meatball) and make a small burn in that direction to bring you closer to your target. If the prograde marker is not aligned with the meatball you can burn off center to pull the prograde marker (this will increase your speed) or flip around and burn off center to push the retrograde marker onto the target retrograde indicator (the other pink thing, this will also slow you down) Once you are within about 50m (This is a very long distance, get closer if you are less experienced with RCS maneuvering without a Navball) you can take control of the Kerbal and finish off the rescue from there.

[Scarecrow88]

If you are struggling to see things at 300m, have you got your markers turned off. F2 (default) toggles the markers on and off. With them switched on, you should see things at much greater distances.

[Taki117]

If you are struggling to see things at 300m, have you got your markers turned off. F2 (default) toggles the markers on and off. With them switched on, you should see things at much greater distances.

F2 toggles the entire HUD, F4 toggels just the Markers.

[Mister Spock]

Taki: thanks for the explanation about the ribbons, and about zeroing out relative velocity. I'll try that. One thing I noticed, though, was that our relative velocity kept changing, because our orbits didn't coincide perfectly. I had matched inclination, but my orbit was a tad more circular than the target's. I guess some deviation is inevitable, so I'll just try zeroing out relative velocity with small bits of thrust, as you suggest.

As for ship markers: I am sure I did hit F4, because for a while I was using that hotkey to take screenshots with FRAPS. I just switched FRAPS to F6. Thanks for the tip!

[r_rolo1]

If you are struggling to see the ship, you should light your ship up ... in red , preferably ( simply because humans see red slightly better in dim conditions ). That or get even closer

P.S. You can get really close easily even without markers. Navball info + distance to target is quite enough ....

Edited July 25, 2014 by r_rolo1

[TheTranceMan]

jean deaux is right; use the navball. in orbital view, select the kerbal as your target and create a maneuver node to get a close encounter (try for less than 1km). after you have burned to set up an encounter, switch the navball to "target" mode (click on the text above and it will cycle through surface, orbit, and target) and place your heading indicator on the green retrograde symbol. at close approach, burn to zero out your velocity relative to your target. now place your heading onto your target (pink circle) and do a small burn to start getting closer. if you are already very close (<500m) you can switch to docking and use RCS instead. you will want to switch to RCS at close range anyway. at this point, you want to get your heading, target, and prograde indicators all lined up on top of each other, and start zeroing out your velocity with RCS to reach a dead stop when you are very close to your stranded kerbalnaut. using only the navball and velocity indicators, you can maneuver your vessel to ever-so-gently kiss your kerbalnauts every time.

i accepted the minmus exploration contract first thing and sent a craft on its way with an eta of like 6 days. there are still 3 days to go and during that time i have rescued 17 kerbalnauts on contracts. on most of those rescues, i have only needed to switch to the kerbal to gab the ladder as the vehicle drifts into him. getting your craft very close is what makes this contract easy. i wouldn't dream of switching to the kerbal at more than 10m out.

consider the kerbalnaut rescue an essential 'trainer' in KSP. getting good at orbital rendezvous and docking opens up endless new possibilities in play and design. without it, you simply can't experience the more amazing aspects to interplanetary travel in KSP.

[TheTranceMan]

Hmm, I think I tried this, but I didn't see the targeted object highlighted in any way in stage view. I guess I'll try it again.

As for RCS, I do know how to activate the suit (with "R"). I meant that I haven't unlocked RCS for my ships yet, so my maneuvering was limited to using the main engine to burn. Spaceship-RCS presumably works better for rescues than just burning the main engine?

i wouldn't bother with the rescue contracts until you have RCS tech unlocked. i'm not saying that it can't be done, but as someone learning a game with the most atrocious learning-curve of any gave in existence, learn to dock with RCS as it is meant to be done.

[Mister Spock]

Okay, I did just unlock RCS tech, and I used RCS a bit to stabilize my ship as it climbed into orbit, which was good practice. Now to hunt down that stranded Kerbil!

[Jean Deaux]

Good luck, shout out a good Yeaaa Baby!!!! when you finally real him in.

[Mister Spock]

"Yeaaa Baby!!!!" As requested, lol.

In my first intercept, I got within 300m or so, but I couldn't get our relative velocity below 10 m/s. Does one burn retrograde to the target (Kerbil) if one's ship is going faster than the Kerbil, and prograde to it if one is going slower?

After that, I focused on making our orbits really close. I got relative inclination down to less than 0.1. (Is that what one should shoot for? I could never quite get it to zero.) Then I made my apoapsis and periapsis very close to his. Because I was behind, I made my orbit period just 2 seconds shorter than his! I was already pretty close to him, but the slightly shorter orbit meant I was able to close in 200-meter increments per orbit, which took about 20 orbits. At last I was 100 meters or so from him, 5 m/s difference in speed, which I still couldn't figure out how to reduce to zero. I tried main-engine burn, and RCS, and neither really helped. (But I'm a newb with ship-borne RCS.) So I switched to the Kerbil and his EVA. I tried not to over-do it on the RCS controls. The ship shot past me a couple times, but then I went with shorter, staccato bursts on the jetpack, and the ship slowly got closer. At last I climbed on it (and realized I'd forgotten to deploy my ladder). After some futzing, voila, I made it inside! It was very satisfying, I have to say.

I finally answered the "bug" question I posed earlier: I reloaded several saved games, and Jeb never appeared in my empty cockpit magically. So I guess I must have populated him inadvertently in my first flight, even though my preflight checklist includes shooing him out of every cockpit.

So my big remaining question is how to zero-out the relative differences in speed. Burning at/away from the target's prograde/retrograde markers just seemed to mess up my orbit. Using the ship's RCS didn't seem to make any difference at all (probably because I wasn't doing it right). Any further suggestions?

[Reactordrone]

Ideally the inclination should be NaN or 0° and when you're close and have a low relative speed turn on RCS and use the IJKL keys to move the prograde marker into the centre of the target prograde indicator and speed up or slow down with the H and N keys (or use the docking controls which remap the WASD shift and ctrl keys to do the same thing.) Pointing at the target prograde marker and burning should move the ship's prograde marker into the target prograde circle

[Wanderfound]

So my big remaining question is how to zero-out the relative differences in speed. Burning at/away from the target's prograde/retrograde markers just seemed to mess up my orbit. Using the ship's RCS didn't seem to make any difference at all (probably because I wasn't doing it right). Any further suggestions?

The yellow marker shows the direction that you're moving relative to the target (target prograde); the pink marker shows the direction that the target is actually in. Each of these markers also has an opposite mark showing the reverse direction.

If you burn directly towards the target prograde marker, you will increase your velocity relative to the target. If you burn directly towards the target retrograde marker, you will reduce your velocity relative to the target.

The simplest way to do it is to wait until just before your closest approach and burn directly at target retrograde (the one that looks like the normal yellow retrograde marker) until your relative velocity (shown at the top of the navball when in target mode) hits zero. Then point directly at the target (the pink marker) and gently burn towards him.

If you get the yellow marker on top of the pink one, that means that you're moving directly towards your target. To move the yellow markers, "push" retrograde and "pull" prograde. In other words, when you burn almost-but-not-quite prograde, the yellow prograde marker will move towards you. When you burn almost-but-not-quite retrograde, the retrograde marker will move away from you.

Once you get in close, keep your nose pointed at the target and use the RCS translation controls (JKLIHN) to fine tune your approach speed and direction.

PS: don't worry too much about your orbit during all of this. Once you end up next to your target with a zero relative velocity, you're going to automatically be in perfectly matched orbits.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Wanderfound

[Jean Deaux]

"Yeaaa Baby!!!!" As requested, lol.

In my first intercept, I got within 300m or so, but I couldn't get our relative velocity below 10 m/s. Does one burn retrograde to the target (Kerbil) if one's ship is going faster than the Kerbil, and prograde to it if one is going slower?

After that, I focused on making our orbits really close. I got relative inclination down to less than 0.1. (Is that what one should shoot for? I could never quite get it to zero.) Then I made my apoapsis and periapsis very close to his. Because I was behind, I made my orbit period just 2 seconds shorter than his! I was already pretty close to him, but the slightly shorter orbit meant I was able to close in 200-meter increments per orbit, which took about 20 orbits. At last I was 100 meters or so from him, 5 m/s difference in speed, which I still couldn't figure out how to reduce to zero. I tried main-engine burn, and RCS, and neither really helped. (But I'm a newb with ship-borne RCS.) So I switched to the Kerbil and his EVA. I tried not to over-do it on the RCS controls. The ship shot past me a couple times, but then I went with shorter, staccato bursts on the jetpack, and the ship slowly got closer. At last I climbed on it (and realized I'd forgotten to deploy my ladder). After some futzing, voila, I made it inside! It was very satisfying, I have to say.

I finally answered the "bug" question I posed earlier: I reloaded several saved games, and Jeb never appeared in my empty cockpit magically. So I guess I must have populated him inadvertently in my first flight, even though my preflight checklist includes shooing him out of every cockpit.

So my big remaining question is how to zero-out the relative differences in speed. Burning at/away from the target's prograde/retrograde markers just seemed to mess up my orbit. Using the ship's RCS didn't seem to make any difference at all (probably because I wasn't doing it right). Any further suggestions?

Hey hey! Gratz! The more in-line (direction, speed, inclination) you are the better you will be at getting your relative speed to zero. I honestly wouldn't worry about being at zero, you're never really going to be "perfectly" matched until you're physically docked to something. As long as your relative speed is .3 or less there's plenty enough time to maneuver around before the distance becomes too great to interact. In space, close is a pretty garsh darn big area in comparison to what we think close is for ourselves. Basically the higher your relative speed the smaller your window of opportunity will be for an encounter and a higher risk for physical damage if contact is made.