Finally, a breakthrough in aero-nut-ic engineering!

[xcorps]

I finally did it.

After a few dozen posts, a few hundred designs, a few sleepless nights, and probably two hundred test flights, I finally put a space plane into orbit. Even managed to dock the stupid thing because I ran out of electricity. I tell you, that stuff is a fad. It won't be around long.

Anyway, I put a space plane into orbit. Not a big deal if you're already in the fraternity, but I wasn't. I am now, but I wasn't. It's a bigger deal than getting a Kerb on the Mun. A hell of a lot harder too.

Did I mention I put a space plane into orbit? Yeah, gimmie the jacket and buy me a drink. It totally doesn't matter that I didn't actually build it with the intention of putting it into orbit. It doesn't even have tail fins. I just wanted to see if it worked better than any of my planes. It did. I put it into orbit. And docked it. And landed it perfectly.

So, I figure I have basically two paths to go down, but for this career mode game I only want to chose one. I can either:

A) Put more Dv in the design and fly it to new destinations with rock collectors science experiments.

-or-

Put more thrust in the design and use it as a lift vehicle. Drop the lander in orbit and fly back to the pad, fly the lander, collect science, return to LKO and retrieve the Science and Kerbs. Fuel the lander in situ and reuse it.

Right now, I intend to visit the Mun and Minmus a bunch more times each, because I've only been to each once. I have the Duna and Ike exploration, but that's probably on hold until I get a few hundred more science points.

I don't have Nukes, Ions, Rapiers, and most of the other last tier unlocks yet.

So I'm asking for your opinions, might Aero-nut-ic engineers, which way would you go given those constraints?

I see option A as a more expedient plan to implement but a pain in the left cheek to design.

I see option B as a potential pain in the right cheek to implement, but the design challenges are smaller.

[Pecan]

Why drag all those wings, jets and other useless, heavy parts around to other places where they will only get in the way? How will you land on all those vacuum places - horizontally or vertically? In an atmosphere will the wings help (lift) or hinder (awkward drag)?

You guessed it - my opinion is leave it at home if you want to do missions, take it if you are just a flight-simulator nut who wants to do it for the screenshot.

As a launch vehicle you'll find it has a miniscule to negative payload capability. If you need a SSTO use a rocket, if you don't need a SSTO, use a rocket. If you want to use a jet first stage drop all the wasted mass of wings.

That's incredible mind-reading! You already know I'm going to say; spaceplanes are only useful for launching tiny loads from Kerbin to orbit. They're also fun for Laythe, of course, since it has an oxygen atmosphere. Everywhere else and for any payload over a tonne or two you're better off with a rocket (or a hoard of mods).

[Laie]

That's incredible mind-reading! You already know I'm going to say; spaceplanes are only useful for launching tiny loads from Kerbin to orbit.

*cough* http://ksp.schnobs.de/k-prize/screenshot95.png

But Pecan has it right: spaceplanes are alright as a space shuttle, going LKO and back, but it makes no sense to carry the jets & stuff to places where they can serve no purpose. Though you may find that you're loving it and want to do it anyway, in which case you're already decided.

[Red Iron Crown]

Spaceplanes in space are not the most efficient due to all that dry mass being lugged around, but don't let inefficiency stop you if you find it fun.

I don't do much in the way of spaceplanes, but I made a rapier/ion powered single seat plane after 0.23.5 boosted the ion's thrust. It was single stage to just about anywhere and could land on any body other than Tylo (and Jool, of course). Was it useful or efficient? Not really. Was it fun to build and play with? Definitely.

[Col_Jessep]

Why drag all those wings, jets and other useless, heavy parts around to other places where they will only get in the way?

Fun. Also pin-point accurate landings on the runway. And plane parts allow for better aesthetics imo. Going to the Mun is one thing, doing it in style is another.

[Wanderfound]

As a launch vehicle you'll find it has a miniscule to negative payload capability. If you need a SSTO use a rocket, if you don't need a SSTO, use a rocket. If you want to use a jet first stage drop all the wasted mass of wings.

That's incredible mind-reading! You already know I'm going to say; spaceplanes are only useful for launching tiny loads from Kerbin to orbit. They're also fun for Laythe, of course, since it has an oxygen atmosphere. Everywhere else and for any payload over a tonne or two you're better off with a rocket (or a hoard of mods).

I beg to differ.

It can reach orbit carrying a 30 ton payload with plenty of spare fuel. It could do it with 70 ton if I could just figure out how to stop the landing gear from collapsing during takeoff...

Edited August 6, 2014 by Wanderfound

[Wanderfound]

Fun. Also pin-point accurate landings on the runway. And plane parts allow for better aesthetics imo. Going to the Mun is one thing, doing it in style is another.

Seconded.

Landing on the Mun is fun. Doing a VTOL landing on the Mun in a hypersonic spaceplane that looks like an F-15 is awesome.

I'd rather go to space in a sportscar than a truck.

[Pecan]

That's very impressive Wanderfound - all the other spaceplanes I've seen with anything like that payload have had to rely on loads of mods and/or massive part-clipping, engines inside engines, 10 layers of wings, all that sort of thing. How have you managed that?

However -@ you and Col_Jessep:

Fun - yes, I said "take it if you are just a flight-simulator nut".

Pin-point accurate landings on the runway - no, that's a really bad reason for taking them to Moho and back.

Aesthetics - fair enough; most of the big stock planes I see are pretty awful though (unless they're using incredible amounts of clipping - as above).

Style - well sort of, awkward and useless is a style too, I suppose.

I'd rather go to Mun in a sportscar than a truck - so I don't load my sportscar lander with truck components.

[Hodo]

Not going to derail this thread with "I can put more into orbit with a space plane then you!" picture, all I have to say is look up some of my SSTO space planes 108 tons is a pretty good cargo.

As for taking them to other planets, this can be tricky. If you rely on turbojets you are hauling several tons of dead weight through space and to another world that it most likely will not work on. On the other hand, this is why the RAPIER and SABRE were invented. They kill two birds with one engine. If you mate them with a more efficient rocket engine for space maneuvering you, like the LV909 or a Aerospike. You will find that you can have a booster phase, the RAPIER/SABRE, and the maneuver phase, the LV909 or Aerospike or some other HIGH ISP rocket engine.

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This old craft, the SVO-17, used SABRE-S engines to go everywhere in the Kerbin SOI. And VTOL rocket engines to let it land on an airless surface. It can be replicated with stock parts, but at the cost of parts count.

[Wanderfound]

That's very impressive Wanderfound - all the other spaceplanes I've seen with anything like that payload have had to rely on loads of mods and/or massive part-clipping, engines inside engines, 10 layers of wings, all that sort of thing. How have you managed that?

Creativity and time (I've been ill, nothing else to do).

Apart from Mechjeb, she's all stock parts, and the only part clipping is what you can get without using the debug menu (mostly just that there's a probe core hidden in the fuselage so that it can be flown as a drone). The only wing overlapping was what was necessary to get the wing shape I wanted; 95% of the wing surface is single layer.

The plane is essentially built like a tuning fork; despite appearances, the only thing connecting the back of it together is a lot of struts. The main inspiration was in realising that a pair of rotated type 2 fuselages would make a pretty decent open-air cargo bay. There's no roof or floor to it, which is handy as a lot of cargo loads protrude above and below. Cargo is secured via a docking port at the front of the bay and a mesh of struts coming from radial decouplers along the sides of the bay.

Power is a pair of turbojets plus four RAPIERs. With all six engines sucking air, it can climb vertically unloaded and at better than 60 degrees with a full bay. The final run before orbital lift is usually done on only the turbojets; there just isn't enough air at 30,000m to feed six engines.

Under FAR, she can crack Mach 5 at 30,000m and needs less than a minute of oxidising burn to get the apoapsis over 70km with a 30 ton cargo load (plus about thirty seconds for circularising). There's an abort system, emergency brakes for short runways, and enough spare weight capacity that adding further luxuries is no problem. I've only been using it for lifting orbital infrastructure so far, but it could be fun to try and land it on the Mun...

The craft file is at https://www.dropbox.com/s/jhgl6sva73...%20Heavy.craft (with Mechjeb removed, so it's 100% stock), and there are more screenshots at http://s1378.photobucket.com/user/craigmotbey/library/

[LaytheAerospace]

Congrats on your first orbit! I remember my first spaceplane. I knew nothing about designing a proper spaceplane, and ended up just bolting more and more wings onto the back trying desperately to get the CoL behind to CoM. The wings were so ridiculously long that they actually flapped on takeoff, and I couldn't fly with SAS on because the plane would flap harder and harder until the wings snapped off.

After playing around in stock for a while, you should give FAR a shot. Takes things to a whole new level of difficulty, but once you master it your planes will be so much more fun to fly. Also, try sending a plane to Laythe! Being the only other oxygen atmosphere in the system, it's practically mandatory if you keep going with spaceplanes. Orbital refueling stations will make this much easier.

[Pecan]

Nice job (and I'm following your thread about the wierd nose-gear issue too.). Hope you are feeling better.

Hodo, of course I haven't forgotten yours either :-)

[Claw]

...

Anyway, I put a space plane into orbit. Not a big deal if you're already in the fraternity, but I wasn't. I am now, but I wasn't. It's a bigger deal than getting a Kerb on the Mun. A hell of a lot harder too.

...

Congratulations xcorps. Nice job getting to space with your first successful design.

~Claw

[Wanderfound]

I finally did it.

Congrats, BTW.

Careful, though; they're addictive...

[PixelClef]

Wow, grats and nice going!

I'm still trying to get one to fly.

[aphenine]

Yey, well done!

[Jean Deaux]

Welcome to the club! I gotta tell you, it took me over year to get in myself, so I know what you're feeling. Gratz!

[MarvinKitFox]

I beg to differ.

(this to a statement that spaceplanes only move small payloads.)

Ok, so where do I attach my 1273ton mobile science base to this plane?

Not to mention my 6155.3ton low-solar-orbit observatory?

To Xcorps::

Congratulations.

No, not on the gettign a ssto spaceplane to orbit, that is easy.

To mentioning that you managed to LAND your ssto spaceplane in one piece. That is an achievement of a whole new magnitude.

My planes, when 99% empty, have the flying agility of a paper bag in a tornado. Goes everywhere, but not where *i* want it to go.

Edited July 26, 2014 by MarvinKitFox

[O-Doc]

Grtz! I'm very impressed by your persistence. Looking forward to X-Corps SSTO Workshop in the near future.